Are there any Blue Grits (à la Paul Martin?)

[blueblood]

And yet it still bothers me tremendously that a Liberal, Paul Martin as Finance Minister, and a Democrat, Slick Willie Clinton did better for their respective country's deficite and debt than the Conservatives and Republicans through my adult life.

Don't fret, you can thank the bond vigilantes for that!

[Evening Star]

RNG, why do you think Norway's Statoil has been so comparatively successful, if Petro-Canada was not?

[RNG]

RNG, why do you think Norway's Statoil has been so comparatively successful, if Petro-Canada was not?

You really know how to put a guy on the spot. I am fiscally very right wing. And I will throw a thousand examples of how socialism doesn't work. And how the government should not be in business and on and on like any other rightwing nut.

And then the damned Scandihoovian countries come along and sort of poo on my parade in terms of their society, their stability and their businesses. I wish I knew.

One of the things might be that the average citizen tries to contribute, rather than take. But not sure.

Edited April 7, 2011 by RNG

[GWiz]

I wish I knew.

One of the things might be that the average citizen tries to contribute, rather than take. But not sure.

Let me try to help...

Government, Unions, and Businesses work TOGETHER for the "common good"...

Yup, it's just as simple as that...

FYI, that's the way Germany does it too... It works so well that Germany was able to "take in" a totally disfunctional second country (East Germany) and still prosper...

Unfortunately all of that is completely "foreign" to people on this side of the pond where EVERYTHING is based on confrontation and discord...

[RNG]

Let me try to help...

Government, Unions, and Businesses work TOGETHER for the "common good"...

Yup, it's just as simple as that...

FYI, that's the way Germany does it too... It works so well that Germany was able to "take in" a totally disfunctional second country (East Germany) and still prosper...

Unfortunately all of that is completely "foreign" to people on this side of the pond where EVERYTHING is based on confrontation and discord...

You are so right. I visit a US dominated forum regularly and they are so totally partizan. If Obama came up with a cure for cancer the Reps would blame him for causing too many people putting a strain on resources, and vica versa.

[GWiz]

You are so right. I visit a US dominated forum regularly and they are so totally partizan. If Obama came up with a cure for cancer the Reps would blame him for causing too many people putting a strain on resources, and vica versa.

You sir, via your post, have established your credibility with me (for whatever that's worth)...

The sad thing is that the same attitude is almost as pervasive north of the US/Canada border...

[eyeball]

As Kevin O'Leary would point out, too small an issue, no money in it for me, and at .90 a lb how much was your profit margin and at what volume?

Enough margin to support about 2.3 families, the .3 being the boat share which went to the owner.

It certainly wasn't just us that were hurt by Ottawa's...so-called management...of our fisheries. Several other vessels were also put out of business not to mention the plant that employed 10 or so people for the 8 hour shift per boatload that we delivered.

As for Kevin O'Leary's need for bigger issues to fry, I would have thought the principle that's at stake would suffice.

Oh well, I guess I shouldn't be too pissed at just the Liberals, the Tories we're certainly no better.

[GWiz]

Enough margin to support about 2.3 families, the .3 being the boat share which went to the owner.

It certainly wasn't just us that were hurt by Ottawa's...so-called management...of our fisheries. Several other vessels were also put out of business not to mention the plant that employed 10 or so people for the 8 hour shift per boatload that we delivered.

As for Kevin O'Leary's need for bigger issues to fry, I would have thought the principle that's at stake would suffice.

Oh well, I guess I shouldn't be too pissed at just the Liberals, the Tories we're certainly no better.

Look my friend, don't get me wrong, I wasn't coming down on you, just wanted you to look at the bigger Canadian picture...

A few dozen or so livelyhoods on the west coast vs hundreds if not thousands of jobs lost because of the Cod Fisheries being closed on the east coast... What would YOU have done?

[ToadBrother]

Look my friend, don't get me wrong, I wasn't coming down on you, just wanted you to look at the bigger Canadian picture...

A few dozen or so livelyhoods on the west coast vs hundreds if not thousands of jobs lost because of the Cod Fisheries being closed on the east coast... What would YOU have done?

Looked on a map and found out that the two fisheries are in different oceans.

[GWiz]

Looked on a map and found out that the two fisheries are in different oceans.

Two of THREE coasts Canada has... GREAT Country isn't it?

[eyeball]

Look my friend, don't get me wrong, I wasn't coming down on you, just wanted you to look at the bigger Canadian picture...

A few dozen or so livelyhoods on the west coast vs hundreds if not thousands of jobs lost because of the Cod Fisheries being closed on the east coast... What would YOU have done?

Shrimp was just one small example, thousands of livelihoods have been lost on this coast too, and most can be attributed to Ottawa's mismanagement.

The solution most people on this coast have advocated has been to basically give up on Ottawa and move towards a more regionally-based management of our fisheries. Well...notwithstanding the Jimmy Pattison's and Galen Weston's of the world of course.

They like Ottawa right where it is.

[GWiz]

Shrimp was just one small example, thousands of livelihoods have been lost on this coast too, and most can be attributed to Ottawa's mismanagement.

The solution most people on this coast have advocated has been to basically give up on Ottawa and move towards a more regionally-based management of our fisheries. Well...notwithstanding the Jimmy Pattison's and Galen Weston's of the world of course.

They like Ottawa right where it is.

Well, honestly, I'm a Canada firster...

It's the Provincial/Regional thingy (IMHO) that has kept Canada from being all that it could and should be to the benefit of ALL Canadians...

I guess that's why I'm a Trudeau Liberal, he was the last PM of any stripe to share that view of Canada...

Having freer trade with foreign countries than Canada has within itself has never made much sense to me...

But, as I always say, to each their own, why should anyone care about "the greater good" in a me, me, me, society like Canada has, eh...

[eyeball]

Well, honestly, I'm a Canada firster...

It's the Provincial/Regional thingy (IMHO) that has kept Canada from being all that it could and should be to the benefit of ALL Canadians...

Oh I wouldn't trust the Provincial government any farther than I can spit at Ottawa, but at least Victoria would be that much closer to the people that truly count the most on accountable even-handed governance.

I guess that's why I'm a Trudeau Liberal, he was the last PM of any stripe to share that view of Canada...

I was one of those happy little kids waving flags and singing 1 little 2 little 3 Canadians too.

Having freer trade with foreign countries than Canada has within itself has never made much sense to me...

I remember fishing and tying up alongside American fishermen at night. Everybody got along fine until someone came along and gave us economic exclusion zones. That's the day fishing-management on the west coast really started going for a shit.

But, as I always say, to each their own, why should anyone care about "the greater good" in a me, me, me, society like Canada has, eh...

Because it's not "each to their own". It's whatever you had being given to someone else.

Screw the greater good if that's how things work.

[GWiz]

Oh I wouldn't trust the Provincial government any farther than I can spit at Ottawa, but at least Victoria would be that much closer to the people that truly count the most on accountable even-handed governance.

That's the problem... Each province thinking that same way...

Province 1st over country (see Quebec example as the most obvious) vs country 1st over province which I believe in...

I was one of those happy little kids waving flags and singing 1 little 2 little 3 Canadians too.

First TIME I really became actively involved in the political process beyond just voting...

I remember fishing and tying up alongside American fishermen at night. Everybody got along fine until someone came along and gave us economic exclusion zones. That's the day fishing-management on the west coast really started going for a shit.

OK... When, why, what, where, how... Yes, shit happens anywhere and everywhere, sometimes for good reason, sometimes not...

Because it's not "each to their own". It's whatever you had being given to someone else.

Screw the greater good if that's how things work.

And therein lies the problem I speak of...

The problem that makes/keeps Canada as a whole being far less than it can be or could become...

[Wild Bill]

Hm, well, there's probably a lot I don't know about it... but by all accounts, Petro Canada was heavily involved in exploration and drilling of oil within Canada: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/petrocanada/ So were they not selling any of this oil??

Back in those days Star, there was and had been so much private sector oil exploration that there was no need for PetroCan to get involved. Most of the reserves they claimed came from the companies they had bought, not from any new exploration on their part.

As for selling the oil, of course they did! However, it went by pipeline to the States and over to BC to go west across the Pacific. It was all export, virtually none for Canadian use.

This was one of the major bad feelings about the NEP. It was supposedly a program to keep Canadian oil for Canadians, with the implication that it would be at a cheap price because that Canadian oil would not be sold at a scalped price, like what OPEC was doing to us.

In actual fact, the way the program worked was that Canada bought oil for domestic consumption from Libya and Venezuela, at world prices. The oil that western Canada sold for export was sold at world prices, but it was sold through the feds, who gave Alberta and the others a much lower price!

The difference between the two prices was NOT given to the western producers but was kept by Ottawa!

Meanwhile, here in the East we STILL paid a much higher price for gasoline at the pumps! Lots of the usual excuses, like a lack of refining capacity and the need to invest money in more drilling and more pipelines but the price just kept on rising!

So the only ones who benefited from the NEP were the Feds! The price of oil soars around the world, western Canada producers don't see any increase in their profits and all of us pay more at the pumps!

Theoretically, the fact that Ottawa was getting so much oil money meant that the whole country benefited. We could pay less taxes and have more money to spend on roads, modern equipment for our military and welfare. Of course, that was just the "official line", quoted from a textbook with no connection to how things worked in the REAL world!

[GWiz]

Back in those days Star, there was and had been so much private sector oil exploration that there was no need for PetroCan to get involved. Most of the reserves they claimed came from the companies they had bought, not from any new exploration on their part.

As for selling the oil, of course they did! However, it went by pipeline to the States and over to BC to go west across the Pacific. It was all export, virtually none for Canadian use.

This was one of the major bad feelings about the NEP. It was supposedly a program to keep Canadian oil for Canadians, with the implication that it would be at a cheap price because that Canadian oil would not be sold at a scalped price, like what OPEC was doing to us.

In actual fact, the way the program worked was that Canada bought oil for domestic consumption from Libya and Venezuela, at world prices. The oil that western Canada sold for export was sold at world prices, but it was sold through the feds, who gave Alberta and the others a much lower price!

The difference between the two prices was NOT given to the western producers but was kept by Ottawa!

Meanwhile, here in the East we STILL paid a much higher price for gasoline at the pumps! Lots of the usual excuses, like a lack of refining capacity and the need to invest money in more drilling and more pipelines but the price just kept on rising!

So the only ones who benefited from the NEP were the Feds! The price of oil soars around the world, western Canada producers don't see any increase in their profits and all of us pay more at the pumps!

Theoretically, the fact that Ottawa was getting so much oil money meant that the whole country benefited. We could pay less taxes and have more money to spend on roads, modern equipment for our military and welfare. Of course, that was just the "official line", quoted from a textbook with no connection to how things worked in the REAL world!

There you go trying to change history again...

Shame on you Bill... Or is it just that your falsehoods have become facts to you as you age?

[William Ashley]

I'm probably by definition a blue grit, it it wern't for the liberals supporting a corrupt form of justice system that limits access to the courts espcially by financial barriers and support of human rights violations and charter breaches through laws such as the mental health act - I would probably be a Blue Grit - unfortunately I have higher standards for "social" processes.

I'm also far more libertarian and really don't match up with the structure because I want

"fees instead of taxes" - that is where tax dollars would go to a program, instead a direct levy should be raised for that program, rather than a generic tax. The government would be forced to budget based on ability of printing, royalties, and any other inputs - instead directing toward generating income through development of crown lands and provision of public services, such as economic mass transit, baseline banking services that remove the CRA's role of income tracking, as well as providing a low rate bank account.. basic services free - transaction services beyond transfer to a private bank at minimal cost. (foreigners would be required to have an account before entering Canada --- foreigner service fees would be minimal aside from free basis services such as depositing, and 1 withdrawl/transfer -- any secondary bank wire fees would have to be paid if not getting cash at a GC2ndBank point)

alongside the removal of all taxes - two taxes would exist the "ecofee - at point of production or import- for the cost of cleaning up product waste and pollution (this fee would in part be usuable by the companies that it was charged to for getting better environmental technologies and processes - atleast those in Canada), and reassessment of property taxes based on income generated from the estate rather than potential value of the estate - and the ability to petition for public claims for use of the estates if a measure of economic use isn't being performed that is non destructive to the property. (submission of uses for property - while certain protections for example primary residence - small land area (under 1 acre for example) would likely be fully excluded from these types of petititons if residential or a commercial establishment.

Any levy that is non essential service or program would come as a public requisition - or Payfor an optional donation to that levy.

Essential Emergency funds would be mandatory but only for extreme events. Other services would be provided on a basis of fees, but people would where possible be given a free route - to do it themselves, or have the representative in the advisory council, MP or Senator provide access to that federal service. But with Taxes removed and financial services redirected to the 2nd Bank, really what do people need to contact the federal government for other than their representatives. All financial services are taken care of.

ID would be doable through the bank and migrated to the multi use 2nd Bank Card (also a citizenship status card - different colours for status of tier I, II citizen, resident or visitor) . employment would be done through the Chancellory HRD/Education as would most basic services. Meanwhile voicing opinions would be done through a public registration system and the advisory council or MP's.

Service Canada and the CRA would be migrated to the 2nd Bank, and the second bank funded from minor service fees for non basis account users, and investments, and where that fails, printing (or minting). Nature of service Canada is mostly economic so it might as well just be run as a bank and have financial inputs rather than just personnel costs and grants. The CRA meanwhile is the primary vehicle for inputs of tax revenues and collections, so it might as well just be lumped in too. It removes the need for income tax season and all that and allows people to focus on investments instead of filing paper. The only tax would exist in debt interest payment until people paid it off.. and some emergency "residual payments" such as for a modified payment algorythm for old age security and poverty health programs not paid for by the 15% medical levy (from health imports and domestic health sector), etc.... it is a more efficient system of government.

The costs of policing and military would be done through any remaining revenues after social funding provided as a grant to the military - to be spent on development, and any funds raised through a plan to have the military develop a profitable military industrial complex, and resource sector by allowing royalty free development on federal crown lands. Likewise the militia would be reinstituted making every able bodied person a member of the militia (if they so wish) for keeping the peace and order - whatever the cause.

While directing the professional military to develop its engineering capacity through producing its own equipment - to bring down costs of buying foreign product.

"income tax is a war tax" and should be ended.

"the debt" should be paid down by splitting it among all Canadians and having them at minimum pay the interest in place of income taxes - once they pay off their personal share it is done. Selling citizenship at the cost of debt divulgenece example $30000 (however this would be "the lowest priceline" with it being an open auction of available new tier II citizenships tied into the "growth rate, cross referenced with carrying capacity) with settlement points being auctioned, individuals must live in the settlement area or exchange with someone else their settlement area to attain tier I citizenship after 3 years, they would maintain their Tier II citizenship if they left Canada and came back but they would still be tied to their settlment area - but would be alloewd to request it changed, annually - so the first year they would have to stay in their settlement area (except some exceptions apply when positions open up to death or revocation of citizenship for felony/indictment) so in year II they could apply for an area that would be offered for that years areas available. Provinces and municipalities set their own quotas on allowable immigration.

, and instituting a death tax, having any remaining debt paid down (from their personal amount - after taking into account hardship of their dependents, as a first cut of inheritence)

In nature I am a blue tory but I am very populist - and power to the people liberal - while I am an extremely fiscal conservative -- that wants --- the public to benefit from fiscal policy, not the public at the benefit of corporatios or individuals.

I think there is a fine line between blue grit and reform though, that is s slight diecast on the social side of things.

I think though we have to free the public -- in as much as freeing the markets.

The removal of the debt and removal of income taxes is KEY to freeing the market.

It is by design the limitation of taxation by requiring any tax to be levied for a specific reason.

Government has turned what was a tax to pay for WWI into a tax to pay for part of their annual budgets.. and still more debt is being lumped on.. it is a total abuse and corruption of freedom Canadians once had - and almost no one is alive to remember.

END THE WAR TAX FREE THE PEOPLE!

I should note while there would be no need for work visas - non canadians would still be subject to some "fees" on any income leaving Canada. These fees would be "wealth export" fees. for example a 20% flat rate. But only for money or goods leaving Canada not just on the basis of bieng in Canada and working. --- to close off the funnel gap --- foreign purchases might see a 20% flat fee on them as a foreign tax. Canadians tier I or tier II would not need to pay this foreign tax on buying foreign products.

Edited April 8, 2011 by William Ashley

[eyeball]

That's the problem... Each province thinking that same way...

Province 1st over country (see Quebec example as the most obvious) vs country 1st over province which I believe in...

Consider this, American fisheries are managed at the state level. Washington, Oregon and California have invested in hatcheries, enhancement and habitat restoration but most of all they have put their states 1st. They're looking forward to the largest projected salmon run in 80 years this summer.

In BC we have a hatchery in our harbour capable of producing returns of up to 2 million fish, but Ottawa has limited its production to next to nothing. They keep enough stock trickling back to produce smolts for photo ops when kindergarten kids release fry back to the creek and to keep a handful of local runs on life support.

Can you spot the difference?

OK... When, why, what, where, how... Yes, shit happens anywhere and everywhere, sometimes for good reason, sometimes not...

...and?

Ottawa had the opportunity to follow the example of Washington, Oregon and California, and it just about did given it funded the construction of the hatchery I mentioned. But in the end it just wouldn't or couldn't lead follow or get out of the way and shit happened all right, tons of it in fact.

And therein lies the problem I speak of...

The problem that makes/keeps Canada as a whole being far less than it can be or could become...

Yeah, Ottawa.