Will Ignatieff maintain his promise to go "home" to the US

[g_bambino]

Since you share a monarch with Great Britain, which is why the Queen refers to herself as Canadian, too, that's simply not true.

Yes, it is. Canada and the UK are sovereign of each other; it's been that way for some time now.

His "relationship with the United States" includes living in the United States for many years and referring to himself as an American, which he is not.

He's not? I'll assume you mean he's not an American citizen, which I assumed he was. If that's the case, then it throws a whole other layer of complexity into the mix: does law alone define one's nationality? Or can one define themselves of a nation because they feel they are?

[Guest American Woman]

Yes, it is. Canada and the UK are sovereign of each other; it's been that way for some time now.

Hmmm. Makes me wonder why you have a Governor General representing the monarchy. Also, why the queen would claim Canadian citizenship.

He's not? I'll assume you mean he's not an American citizen, which I assumed he was. If that's the case, then it throws a whole other layer of complexity into the mix: does law alone define one's nationality? Or can one define themselves of a nation because they feel they are?

No, he's not an American citizen; and if he is defining himself as an American because he feels that he is, that backs up the comments I've made.

Edited March 19, 2011 by American Woman

[g_bambino]

The relationship any number of nations holds to Queen Elizabeth is independent of the relationship other nations hold to her and/or to one another. It indicates some level of common history, but similar history is also shared with other nations that may or may not consider her, or anyone, their queen.

True. But, again, that's the kind of emotive allegiance I was trying to allude to. Does that really mean, though, we can say our prime minister may have dual Canadian-Australian or Canadian-Papua New Guinean citizenship (and, I assume, Canadian-Indian or Canadian-Trinidadian), but not Canadian-French or Canadian-Brazilian?

I don't know the answer; I'm just throwing the questions out there for consideration.

[g_bambino]

Hmmm. Makes me wonder why you have a Governor General representing the monarchy.

Well, the answer's pretty obvious: we share the monarch with other countries and she lives mostly in one of them. It's a practical matter that has no bearing on Canada's sovereignty.

No, he's not an American citizen; and if he is defining himself as an American because he feels that he is, that backs up the comments I've made.

I see. Well, thanks for pointing that out. I wasn't aware.

[Guest American Woman]

Well, the answer's pretty obvious: we share the monarch with other countries and she lives mostly in one of them. It's a practical matter that has no bearing on Canada's sovereignty.

It has bearing on the fact that Canada still has ties to Great Britain,.

[g_bambino]

It has bearing on the fact that Canada still has ties to Great Britain,.

And vice versa and to Australia and Jamaica and Tuvalu. But, what's your point?

[Guest American Woman]

And vice versa and to Australia and Jamaica and Tuvalu. But, what's your point?

My point is that Canada still has ties to Great Britain -- that it doesn't have to the United States -- in response to claims saying otherwise.

[g_bambino]

My point is that Canada still has ties to Great Britain -- that it doesn't have to the United States -- in response to claims saying otherwise.

Your point seemed to be that Canada wasn't a sovereign country. But, if it's just about having different links to the UK than we have to the US, then, sure, you're right.

[Evening Star]

Are there really citations of Ignatieff referring to himself as an American? That's an awfully foolish claim to make if you're not a citizen.

[Guest American Woman]

Are there really citations of Ignatieff referring to himself as an American? That's an awfully foolish claim to make if you're not a citizen.

Yes, there are. I've linked to them in other threads.

[Wild Bill]

There's a lot more to it than that, Bill. They pointedly settled in ethnic communities, even though those communites were small and had large admixtures- and some came here specifically because they were granted greater group-freedom than in the nation of their origins. Doukhobours, Hutterites and other communal groups stand out, but they were not unique. What's more, they were recruited.

Even more than that, the British/Ontario class structure was not accepted nor respected, and it wasn't just 'some' who came from non-British sources- it was the vast majority.

You'll find that as a group they love Canada dearly, but they aren't English/British now, never were and never will be. They assimilated-- into the (multicultural) Canada that they made, not into the British way of life.

Molly, how many Hutterites were there compared to how many citizens who came from Britain, France, Germany, Poland or whatever?

I'm talking about the whole blueberry pie and you're talking about one blueberry!

[Wilber]

No, it's not an open door. There are restrictions with regards to one's citizenship. That's a fact.

For Ignatieff it seems to be a trap. He can't be President because he wasn't born in the US and it seems he can't be Prime Minister because he is seen as an American. It would probably be much less of an issue if his dual citizenship was any number of other countries.

Personally I have lived and worked in a few countries that I would have no hesitation in saying I loved, one of them would be yours. I never quite realized how much affection I have for Japan until this past week and if I had to live in a city and could pick just one, London would be at or near the top of the list.

The anti American card is a powerful tool in Canadian politics, most often used in the past by Liberals and NDP but it seems the Conservatives have no reservations about exploiting it with every bit as much vigor. Makes me sick really whenever I see it, no matter who is doing it. Who says Canadians don't define themselves to a large degree as being "not American". I think we demean ourselves by indulging in this sort of crap.

[Evening Star]

For Ignatieff it seems to be a trap. He can't be President because he wasn't born in the US and it seems he can't be Prime Minister because he is seen as an American. It would probably be much less of an issue if his dual citizenship was any number of other countries.

The two situations are different though. The first is a matter of law. The second is simply part of an attack ad strategy used by an opposing party, along with a number of other factors. I've never thought that Ignatieff's career in the US in and of itself is the main reason why most Canadians don't care for him. (I do have an issue with the political views he advocated while in the US but not with the fact that he worked in the US.)

[nicky10013]

For Ignatieff it seems to be a trap. He can't be President because he wasn't born in the US and it seems he can't be Prime Minister because he is seen as an American. It would probably be much less of an issue if his dual citizenship was any number of other countries.

Personally I have lived and worked in a few countries that I would have no hesitation in saying I loved, one of them would be yours. I never quite realized how much affection I have for Japan until this past week and if I had to live in a city and could pick just one, London would be at or near the top of the list.

The anti American card is a powerful tool in Canadian politics, most often used in the past by Liberals and NDP but it seems the Conservatives have no reservations about exploiting it with every bit as much vigor. Makes me sick really whenever I see it, no matter who is doing it. Who says Canadians don't define themselves to a large degree as being "not American". I think we demean ourselves by indulging in this sort of crap.

Well, I think questioning the relationship we have the US is healthy. I mean, there's no way around the fact that our economy will be tied to theirs but there will naturally be questions about cross border policy on which Canada and the US may not agree, however, this doesn't mean it's "Anti-American." What the CPC are doing are Anti-American smears while at the same time are actually bringing us closer into the American orbit. Their idea of what our politics should be is certainly closer to the US model than the Canadian. It's hypocritical double speak to say the least.

[Wilber]

The two situations are different though. The first is a matter of law. The second is simply part of an attack ad strategy used by an opposing party, along with a number of other factors. I've never thought that Ignatieff's career in the US in and of itself is the main reason why most Canadians don't care for him. (I do have an issue with the political views he advocated while in the US but not with the fact that he worked in the US.)

I'm not a fan of Ignatieff either and have no problem with his political views being the issue but that is not what is being done. The more I see of modern electioneering just demonstrates the truth of Campbell's statement about elections not being the time to discuss real issues, because in fact, they rarely are. She was just the only one who was honest (or dumb) enough to admit it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Are there really citations of Ignatieff referring to himself as an American? That's an awfully foolish claim to make if you're not a citizen.

Here ya go...always a favorite!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0pR0BFOxqE&NR=1

There is only one thing we can do about this

: live the way we are supposed to live,

as our Constitution

commands us to, with dignity and respect for all.

Being an American

is not easy. It is hard. We are required to keep some serious promises.

We are judged

by a high standard,

one we crafted for ourselves

in the founding documents of the republic, the ones that talk about the equality of all people, the ones that tell us that government is of the people, by the people and for the people.

We need to live by this

, at home and abroad, and

it is just about the only thing we can do

to face the hatred of those who want to destroy us. Our best defense is to stay true to who we are.

Our best defense

is to refuse to live in fear, of them,

of ourselves

, of anyone

Text of Ignatieff's commencement address at Whitman College (USA) in 2004:

http://www.whitman.edu/content/news/LivingFearlesslyinaFearfulWorld

Edited March 19, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Evening Star]

I'm not a fan of Ignatieff either and have no problem with his political views being the issue but that is not what is being done. The more I see of modern electioneering just demonstrates the truth of Campbell's statement about elections not being the time to discuss real issues, because in fact, they rarely are. She was just the only one who was honest (or dumb) enough to admit it.

I agree that the Conservatives are attempting to exploit anti-Americanism in a fairly crass (and hypocritical) attack strategy. I'm just not sure that this is why "Ignatieff can't be PM".

Edited March 19, 2011 by Evening Star

[Evening Star]

Thanks, bush_cheney. That was hilarious.

[Smallc]

You are right. That was dumb.

Simple mistake. I make them from time to time too....

[Wilber]

Well, I think questioning the relationship we have the US is healthy. I mean, there's no way around the fact that our economy will be tied to theirs but there will naturally be questions about cross border policy on which Canada and the US may not agree, however, this doesn't mean it's "Anti-American." What the CPC are doing are Anti-American smears while at the same time are actually bringing us closer into the American orbit. Their idea of what our politics should be is certainly closer to the US model than the Canadian. It's hypocritical double speak to say the least.

Nothing wrong with questioning relationships but defining yourself by what you are not, is not healthy. We do it all the time. Just try and suggest any reforms to our health care system and the first thing that happens is people crawling out of the woodwork claiming we are trying to Americanize it. We don't do that with other countries. Fact is, our attitude (complex) toward the US stifles a lot of badly needed debate about ourselves.

[Guest American Woman]

Thanks, bush_cheney. That was hilarious.

He also said: “You have to decide what kind of America you want ... It's your country just as much as it is mine.” According to the article: This is not an isolated aberration. In a New York Times article just five years ago, he wrote “we,” meaning Americans, six times in a single paragraph, and throughout.

link

[Wilber]

I agree that the Conservatives are attempting to exploit anti-Americanism in a fairly crass (and hypocritical) attack strategy. I'm just not sure that this is why "Ignatieff can't be PM".

Legally he can of course but many Canadians would use it as a reason why he shouldn't.

[Guest American Woman]

For Ignatieff it seems to be a trap. He can't be President because he wasn't born in the US and it seems he can't be Prime Minister because he is seen as an American. It would probably be much less of an issue if his dual citizenship was any number of other countries.

He doesn't have dual citizenship though. He lived in the U.S., but he's not a citizen.

Personally I have lived and worked in a few countries that I would have no hesitation in saying I loved, one of them would be yours. I never quite realized how much affection I have for Japan until this past week and if I had to live in a city and could pick just one, London would be at or near the top of the list.

The anti American card is a powerful tool in Canadian politics, most often used in the past by Liberals and NDP but it seems the Conservatives have no reservations about exploiting it with every bit as much vigor. Makes me sick really whenever I see it, no matter who is doing it. Who says Canadians don't define themselves to a large degree as being "not American". I think we demean ourselves by indulging in this sort of crap.

I think that sums it up well.

[Wilber]

He doesn't have dual citizenship though. He lived in the U.S., but he's not a citizen.

Interesting, I thought he did.

[Guest American Woman]

Interesting, I thought he did.

That's what makes his statements so odd.