Union Thug Protesters

[bloodyminded]

The only way the tea party could realistically make a difference is by running as republicans. It has been successful and the gop has to cater to them. One has to get elected to enact change. That's the beauty of usa primaries. Big spending republicans got the boot.

So your assertion is that campaign rhetoric and asertions are always objectively accurate? Or only when uttered by an "anti-government" right-winger directly before getting elected and then changing what he or she has been saying all along. Hell, even Rand Paul has made most of his income from the more socialist-leaning policies of the US health system...and he quickly dropped his objections to these policies. After his political success, of course.

Instead of assuming, against all evidence, that a new day has dawned and the "small government" forces have retaken democracy, you might defer judgement till you know this is true.

At the moment, the tea-partiers support government intrusion into the abortion issue (which is by definition "big government"); they oppsoe wikileaks exposing what happens in big government decisions; they laregly tend to suppor capital punishment...which is about as "big" as big government gets, certainly bigger than a tax rate they deem to high.

They, along with Obama's core supporters, seem pretty sanguine about warrantless domestic spying, and the government's "right" to assassinate American citizens based on suspicions that need never be explained or accounted for.....

No. The Teap Partiers are fully and eagerly supportive of--even defensive about--Big Government. They love it. Their issue is not with Big Government. It's with taxes, and to a lesser degree, "foreigners," real and perceived.

As for the obama deal, there are elements of the american left that views bush as hitler, nazi, fascist, et al. Tea party has their nuts, the dems have theirs welcome to politics.

Completely different, as surely you know. The "Bush is a fascist" rhetoric (which is similarly used against Obama by his opponents, as you well know) is just that: it's rhetorical exaggeration; sometimes it's buttressed by an ignorance of what fascism is. (Or what socialism is, as we watch Republican calling the capitalist Obama, the Darling of Wall Street, a "socialist.")

But the belief that Obama is a secret Muslim, and not born in America, is not exaggerated rhetoric. It's a belief.

By stupid people; and only by stupid people.

The Tea Party has a disproportionate number of these, evidently.

Edited March 6, 2011 by bloodyminded

[bloodyminded]

How would you know who the dissenting voices on Fox News are? Do you think Media Matters and MoveOn.org will tell you? You didn't know about Shep Smith, so why do you think you know about others? Fox News constantly has dissenting voices. Much of Fox New's evening opinion success has to do with confrontation. And you can only acheive that with somebody with a different point of view. Two people with the same view doesn't really make good television. And certainly doesn't lead to heated debate, yelling or screaming, etc. You don't understand that you're being fed propaganda at least on the same level you think Fox News is at.

Of course FOX will have dissenting voices. All the media organs allow left, right and centrist voices.

That's how propaganda works in a sophisticated system.

Soviet propaganda was a joke; they never quite understood it. The reason for this is that deceptive propaganda as we know it was an American and British re-invention, beginning in the early 20th century, and seriously taking off in the 1920s.

If you don't have dissenting voices, not too many people will take you seriously. The point is to not go very far with your dissent. There are parameters: thus far, and no further.

These are all more or less mainstream organs, sometimes with Party preferences (FOX and MSNBC come most obviously to mind).

So FOX will permit its requisite liberals to sound off...and then claim "Fair and balanced."

Astonishingly, you repeat the marketing phrase, Shady, as if you think it's an actual political philosophy.

Edited March 6, 2011 by bloodyminded

[WIP]

I see, so you know that Fox News attaches thug to every mention of union, but you don't subscribe to Fox News, and you don't watch it. You trust the so-called watchdog groups, even though those groups are completely partisan, and funded by leftwing ideologues.

Even after I provide you with an example of a pro-union discussion where thug isn't mentioned at all. Will you at least take back your ridiculous and completely false assertion?

Pot meet kettle!

Your example is an expensive FoxNews asset with a long term contract that they may want to avoid tearing up presently, who seems to have started shifting his ideology during the Hurricane Katrina disaster. I remember at the time when I was still an active member of conservative U.S. forum that the mob there started slamming him for criticizing the Bush Admins response to the disaster...even implying that he was gay...something that was never expressed previously if there's any truth in it! Until a couple of years ago Sean Hannity kept Alan Colmes on his show to appear "fair and balanced", although he did not get anything close to an equal voice on the show. FoxNews used to pretend to be "fair and balanced" but I'm not sure if they really care that much if they are considered a conservative propaganda organ.

Yep, Media Matters hates Fox News. So does MoveOn.org. Both are leftwing partisan political groups. Basically the same thing as you claim Fox News to be. But you're ok with sourcing them, but not Fox News. LOL!

Mediamatters and FAIR just play back what your leaders are saying. They do a more honest job of media analysis that the equivalent rightwing media watchdog organizations....where I suspect you get the misleading stories you frequently post up.

How would you know who the dissenting voices on Fox News are? Do you think Media Matters and MoveOn.org will tell you? You didn't know about Shep Smith, so why do you think you know about others? Fox News constantly has dissenting voices. Much of Fox New's evening opinion success has to do with confrontation. And you can only acheive that with somebody with a different point of view. Two people with the same view doesn't really make good television. And certainly doesn't lead to heated debate, yelling or screaming, etc. You don't understand that you're being fed propaganda at least on the same level you think Fox News is at.

All the clowns do at Fox is try to out-conservative each other. And, as mentioned previously, I am well aware of Shep's leaving the reservation over the last few years.

[Shady]

More thuggish behavior.

"if you don’t get that f**king phone out of my face I’m going to break your g**damned neck."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeFZwaq_O-M

[Oleg Bach]

More deliciousness!

"Bring it on you loud mouth, wussy motherf**kers."

What are you trying to do - ruin and destroy Mapleleafweb? Seeing the place in not as managed does not grant you an opportunity to be destructive - only a coward calls someone on via the keyboards...bet you can't even handle yourself in a common street fight in the real world - so if that is the case...you can not control yourself here either.

[WIP]

More thuggish behavior.

"if you don’t get that f**king phone out of my face I’m going to break your g**damned neck."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeFZwaq_O-M

Amazing that you are so anxious to destroy the only tool that working people have as leverage against employers that you post every stupid piece of anti-union propaganda you can find. You troll around for a video clip of a drunk who apparently is at the Wisconsin protests...although we can't take your word on it after FoxNews was exposed for fraud when they spliced in file footage of a protest in California with their anti-union bullshit a few days ago....so compare this with all the guns & ammo tea party clowns and the anti-Muslim crowd threatening violence upon those attending a fundraiser for a Muslim charity and tell me who are the real dangers in society?

Union demonstrators are fighting for the rights of working people, and what they are able to win will have a cascading effect that will benefit those outside of the union. The rightwing hacks are fighting against the interests of the common people and driving down wages and working conditions....since polling data has revealed in the past that many of these teabaggers are pensioners or on some form of federal assistance themselves, they are too stupid to see past the flags and the crosses to realize that they are working against their own economic interests as well as others.

[Shady]

Amazing that you are so anxious to destroy the only tool that working people have as leverage against employers that you post every stupid piece of anti-union propaganda you can find.

Not at all. I'm all for private sector unions collectively bargaining for their salaries, benefits and pensions. What I'm against is the perverted public sector bargaining process. There's a big difference. And those that try to conflate the two are being completely disingenuous.

[blueblood]

Not at all. I'm all for private sector unions collectively bargaining for their salaries, benefits and pensions. What I'm against is the perverted public sector bargaining process. There's a big difference. And those that try to conflate the two are being completely disingenuous.

Would you also be for individual workers wanting to opt out of said unions and negotiate on their own/not being forced to job action, and would you be also in favor of protecting their rights in the workpLace from union "attitude adjustments"?

[WIP]

Not at all. I'm all for private sector unions collectively bargaining for their salaries, benefits and pensions. What I'm against is the perverted public sector bargaining process. There's a big difference. And those that try to conflate the two are being completely disingenuous.

No, there isn't a difference! When I was young, most workers in manufacturing and construction belonged to unions and made better money than the public service unions. During the race to the bottom provided by globalization, deregulation and anti-union legislation, some not-so-bright working people are more interested in taking others down to their level, than in improving their own lot in life.

The tradeoff for most public service workers has been job security and a pension plan guaranteed by the employer. Apparently, that's what this governor in Wisconsin is trying to take away, just as many other public service employees across the U.S. have had their pension plans pilfered by governments that refuse to pay back monies they have borrowed out of them. This constitutes theft if they get away with it! It's notable that rightwing Republicans are so observant of paying debt bonds...they don't seem to be willing to renege on them, but reneging on what's owed in past contract negotiations with the unions is okay to just tear up and pretend it never existed! The whole system is a fraud.

And before I forget, it's worth noting that the majority of teachers and healthcare workers are women; so the attack on public service unions that usually avoids police and firefighters (except John Kasich) can be seen as an attack on women in the workplace also; and one that, if successful, will have a cascading effect of driving down the incomes of women outside of government and increase the disparity in income between men and women.

[WIP]

Would you also be for individual workers wanting to opt out of said unions and negotiate on their own/not being forced to job action, and would you be also in favor of protecting their rights in the workpLace from union "attitude adjustments"?

Yeah, here we go with that "right to work" bullshit! This is nothing more than right-to-break unions, since that is exactly what it has done in every state where it has come into law. The fact is that in a capitalist system, those with money are more equal than those without; and for average working people...in a factory for example, the only leverage they have against the employer is if they act collectively. Allowing employers to pick apart the union through rewarding traitors, is just an attempt to remove the only power that the employee has to protect themselves from abuse and greed of the employer.