ToadBrother Posted February 23, 2011 Report Posted February 23, 2011 Peter the Great was actually very pro western he sought out technical expertise from western europe to help russia catch up with western technology...many germans, french and others migrated to Russia during his reign... He had an obsession for all things French, but that didn't mean he wanted to be a Frenchman, any more than the Meiji Emperor wanted to be a German. The point of their modernization programs was to assure their internal security and to project their power. Quote
ToadBrother Posted February 23, 2011 Report Posted February 23, 2011 stalin didn't prepare! ...from 1939 to aug 1941 soviet military personal went from 2.5 million men to nearly 6 million...guns and mortars went from approximately 55,000 to 120,000...tanks 20,000 to 25,000 as well they had developed the best tanks in the world at that time the T34 and the KV1...increased aircraft about 8,000 to nearly 19,000...ya it sure sounds like they were sitting around doing nothing to prepare, the Soviet Union at the beginning of hostilities had the worlds largest military and second largest industrial production... The proof is in the pudding. The Soviets were selling steel to the Germans right up to Barbarossa, were thrown back and, as usual, the only thing that saved Russia was the winter. There were real fears in Britain that Stalin might pick up shop and move east of the Urals. Certainly Stalin was hinting at it heavily in dispatches to Churchill, and Churchill on one occasion even reminded Stalin that those tanks and guns firing on Russian troops were in large part built with Russian steel. may 1941 Stalin said "War with Germany is inevitable. If comrade Molotov can manage to postpone the war for two or three months that will be our good fortune, but you yourselves must go off and take measures to raise the combat readiness of our forces" ...right, according to your history he had no idea the war was coming... Stalin purging his officer corps was stupid but it`had nothing to do with not preparing...in fact by the end of Operation Barbarossa Dec '41 the Germans had been stopped and what followed a period of attrition that the Germans could not win...with the loss of the Battle of Stalingrad a little over a year later the war was essentially over for the Nazi regime...not bad for an "unprepared" soviet military Stalin's purges left the Red Army in desperate measures and it wasn't until well into the invasion that the Red Army was up to snuff. The initial stages of Barbarossa were nothing but utter disarray on the part of the Red Army. And you have yet to explain if Stalin was so prepared for war why basically became noncommunicative for several days while his aides and commanders at the front waited for some sort of sensible response from the Kremlin. actually there weren't many issues between russia and the western powers, more often than not Russia was in some way in an alliance with other european powers...actual conflicts only one that I can think of at the moment can be blamed on russian aggression...Swedish imperialism-russia not at fault, Prussian imperialism- Russia not at fault, France/napoleon-allied with west not at fault, Crimean war-senseless war, 60% russia at fault ...the reality is Russia had little involvement militarily with western europe... Little involvement? Napoleon, the Brits and the Prussians stood on one leg to figure out which way Alexander was going to lean. the tension with the bolsheviks had nothing in common the Czar regimes that came before it, it was a whole new ball game that started with western powers attempting to destroy their political movement and return them to the oppression of the Czar and certain death...it would be ironic that you wouldn`t support them in that while I`m assuming you support the current rebellions in the Libya against autocratic rule ... It was a whole new ballgame that simply delivered another batch of autocrats into power. Maybe it might have been slightly different if Trotsky had succeeded Lenin, or at least the regime would have been somewhat more sane, but at the end of the day, there Soviets and the Czars had pretty much the same foreign policy aims. it's clear your knowledge of history has a strong western bias based on the cold war where patriotic myth was more important than the truth and a honest objective look at the situation... Uh huh. Quote
GostHacked Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Folks, this isn't about who was what. It is about how politics is so screwed that people will excuse the actions of one group, while denouncing another group that does the same thing. Thanks for injecting some common sense. Agreed!!! Quote
DogOnPorch Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Uh huh. Did you start hearing this in the background as well?? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Did you start hearing this in the background as well?? Uncle Joe was just ...Misunderstood.... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
DogOnPorch Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Uncle Joe was just ...Misunderstood.... Indeed. It's not that his info on the Great Patriotic War is wrong, as such...just something in the presentation. If yez knowz whats I meanz. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Indeed. It's not that his info on the Great Patriotic War is wrong, as such...just something in the presentation. If yez knowz whats I meanz. I was thinking more along the lines of the Ukraine managed famine and Gulags in Siberia... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
DogOnPorch Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) I was thinking more along the lines of the Ukraine managed famine and Gulags in Siberia... Ever see Robert Duvall's portrayal of Stalin? Edited February 24, 2011 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 Ever see Robert Duvall's portrayal of Stalin? Is it just me,or does Duvall seem to look more like Craig T. Nelson than Stalin???? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
DogOnPorch Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) Is it just me,or does Duvall seem to look more like Craig T. Nelson than Stalin???? Good movie none-the-less. Beria is priceless. Edited February 24, 2011 by DogOnPorch Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
GostHacked Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 wow I'm absolutely stunned by the lack of history knowledge on display here and I thought Canadians were actually more knowledgeable than americans in that regard, nope... waldo may pwn at climate change but wyly pwns at history ... That depends on what version of history you were taught. Quote
wyly Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 That depends on what version of history you were taught.hmm, that would be correct...if you were taught columbus was the first european to discover the americas you be correct from the stand point of what you were taught but incorrect from accuracy...and that's the problem with history as how it's taught,if it's done so with a cultural and political bias from a single point of view...the war of 1812 from three perspectives...USA-a victory for them....Canada-a victory for us...the truth is somewhere in between closer to the UK version,a standoff... most of my schooling my history lessons were very biased not until university did that change, my kids history lessons are taught from a more neutral POV from what the what I was taught, more of the myths/biases are being left out or exposed... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted February 24, 2011 Report Posted February 24, 2011 The proof is in the pudding. The Soviets were selling steel to the Germans right up to Barbarossa, were thrown back and, as usual, the only thing that saved Russia was the winter. There were real fears in Britain that Stalin might pick up shop and move east of the Urals. Certainly Stalin was hinting at it heavily in dispatches to Churchill, and Churchill on one occasion even reminded Stalin that those tanks and guns firing on Russian troops were in large part built with Russian steel. not keeping to business as usual approach after you signed a non-aggression pact sends what kind message "we don't believe you", what you're claiming is daft, Stalin signs an friendly agreement then proceed with hostile anti german behaviour would only invite attack..his only option was to be non-threatening, keep your friends close your enemies closer...Stalin in return for steal got german military technology and equipment so by your logic Hitler had no intention of attacking the USSR (he wanted to atttack in 1940)? it was all a cat and mouse charade everyone playing the same high stakes poker game of bluff and hide...the only proof in the pudding was Stalin doubling the size of his military in one year and then massing them on the german frontier... and the russian winter didn't stop Hitler the Russians did, Hitler planned to be in Moscow by October ending the war before winter set in, soviet army prevented that outcome...the winter freeze up let the russians catch their breath regroup and set the stage for the decisive battles yet to come... Stalin's purges left the Red Army in desperate measures and it wasn't until well into the invasion that the Red Army was up to snuff. The initial stages of Barbarossa were nothing but utter disarray on the part of the Red Army.internal soviet politics have nothing to do with this...And you have yet to explain if Stalin was so prepared for war why basically became noncommunicative for several days while his aides and commanders at the front waited for some sort of sensible response from the Kremlin.stalins and the soviet militaries response time is irrelevant as well...Little involvement? Napoleon, the Brits and the Prussians stood on one leg to figure out which way Alexander was going to lean. that's irrelevant as well, your contention is the russians had continual friction with western powers and they didn't russia was primarily eastern facing not west...It was a whole new ballgame that simply delivered another batch of autocrats into power. Maybe it might have been slightly different if Trotsky had succeeded Lenin, or at least the regime would have been somewhat more sane, but at the end of the day, there Soviets and the Czars had pretty much the same foreign policy aims.yes things may have been very different if Trotsky lived but that's an internal power struggle in a volatile time, shit happens...but coming back to my initial post this all could have been very different if the western nations had not interfered militarily, military intervention just makes a bad the situation much worse with rampant paranoia and ruthless hardliners(stalin) rise to the top in those situations more often than moderates... Uh huh.you don't look at history from an nuetral position... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.