Union Busting in Wisconsin

[pinko]

At 6:45 p.m. on the Thursday before the budget announcement, the second bomb dropped. Someone in the Walker administration leaked a skeleton summary of the "repair" bill; Kraig got a copy from The Wheeler Report, a no-frills political website run by veteran Wisconsin reporter Dick Wheeler. He was stunned. Walker's bill didn't just attack unions: It was a move to wipe them off the map.

According to the leaked summary, the bill would eliminate collective bargaining for most public-sector unions, a move affecting 170,000 employees statewide. It would require public employees, who'd already taken a 3 percent pay cut in the previous two years, to contribute 5.8 percent of wages to fund their pensions and 12.6 percent of wages to pay for health care premiums. (Currently, they pay 0.2 percent of wages into their pensions and 5.6 percent of wages for health premiums. However, state employees fund 100 percent of their pensions through deferred compensation. Walker is demanding more money on top of that to fill a deficit in the pension fund.) Another provision would force unions to vote each year to maintain their union statusan unprecedented move by the governor.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/wisconsin-protest-scott-walker-labor

Please note that the state employees fund 100% of their pensions through deferred compensation. It is also worth noting that these employees have already accepted pay and benefits costs.

Edited March 7, 2011 by pinko

[Pliny]

Wrong on both counts!!!!

RTW is a plan hatched by the NAM(the National Association of Manufacturers) in the late '50's and forwarded by it's free market aparatchiks,The Citizens Alliance and the National Right to Work Committee,using the Taft-Hartley Act of 1947 as convenient cover...

It is a canard designed to play on peoples ideas of individual rights and freedoms to bust individual union local's financial backs by COMPULSORY representation of FREE RIDE employees.

It didn't work too good as a lot of manufacturers just went offshore.

Interesting how they are always lower in the wage and benny area and the time loss injury/on the job death rate is 5 times worse...

Wow!! How 'bout that type of "freedom",eh?The "freedom" to be poorer and dead!

And of course when you are defending your wages and benny's against being considered over-compensation. there are a different set of "statistics" to argue with.

Since your such a champion of individual freedom,perhaps you could answer me this..

The National Association of Manufacturers is a group of like minded entities that has a common goal.Most likely the profitability of its members (let's call it a union,of sorts)and ending any and all impediments to that?

I assume that these "members" must pay a fee (lets call them dues) to remain "members" in good standing?I suspect the cumulative effect of these dues go to fund PAC's to "incentivise" sympathetic minded politicians to enact legislation that would forward the goals of this "association",nevermind the various free market think tanks that are out there?

Why is collectivism OK for the "individual freedom" loving members of the NAM to forward its economic agenda,but not for the people they employ who might feel the need to collectively bargain with their employer??

It isn't OK, Jack. You don't get it. It is never ok for one group to be given political favour over another or at the expense of others.

And your canard about compulsory union membership is nothing but a canard,as well...As I have stated at least twice before...

Maybe...but that's the perception. True or not. If Michael wants to work for GM he has to be a union member. And your disdain for "free riders" tells us there aren't too many that last.

The only reason people such as yourself use these feeble,and easily shot down canards,is because you are constantly grasping at straws trying to forward your race to the bottom free market agenda.You obviously feel that it's time to take back from those who wrongfully took something you feel they never deserved.In the process,you can send that wealth upwards,into the hands of the few,concentrating it at the top...All under the guise of "personal freedom"...

Shot down in your own mind.

Your constant referral to business enterprise as a race to the bottom doesn't help your cause any. There is no race to the bottom unless that is your goal for business.

[pinko]

Pliny:

"It didn't work too good as a lot of manufacturers just went offshore."

Would you please elaborate a bit further on this comment. Which manufacturing, in particular, are you referring to?

[blueblood]

I wonder whtat is the most amazing. That you can write something so lacking in logic, or that you believe in it.

Keep digging.

Let's look at this objectively. One group forces another smaller group to abide by ridiculous rule which infinges on personal liberties. If said minority refuses to follow said rules they are subject to "attitude adjustments" given previous statements earlier in this thread by some union supporters about imprintint scabs with a louisville slugger. We have a remarkable similarity to some levels of things african americans had to deal with in the south.

[blueblood]

That'sure unadulterated,company lovingbullshite...

...But don't say anything about those things,because the family members,"Yes! men",and the rats will go tell management and all of a sudden...You'll be labeled as someone who's "Not a team player" or "has a bad attitude"...

As for you ,Yukon....

You clearly fall into two of those three categories...

I wish you would have crossed any picket line I was involved in because I would have gladly given you a Louisville Slugger emblem imprint on your forehead...

I'd do it for free,chump!!!

Holy Jim Crow batman!!!

[Pliny]

1.Those concessions were made after giving in to two-tier wage plans.Those concessions were made because of the incompetence of management at at least 2 of the Big 3.Remember,it was the CEO's of these companies that went hat in hand to have the public bail out there porrly managed companies. The business plan of these companies was not the fault of the guy on the line putting the car together.In fact,the GM Oshawa plant was rated the most productive in North Amerca just before they workers were forced to take that hit!More productive thatn the non-union Toyota and Honda plants you folks like to hold up as the counter to union auto assembly facilities...

Yes, they did go hat in hand and there should have been no bailout. But if they hadn't then all those union jobs would have been gone and all those pensions lost. It seems that the GM plant in Oshawa was not poorly managed since it was rated the most productive in North America, does management deserve any credit? We can't have a poorly managed plant being number one in productivity. A big problem with GM is their ponzi scheme pension plan. Having others pay for your pension is never a good idea.

2.No...Union locals bargain to increase the standard of living of their members.And most companies bargian to increase their profitability...I assume you understand that?

Yes. I understand completely. Unions are on the other side of increasing production and are concerned entirely with increasing wages and benefits. I think that's what you said.

Of course,in a non-union situation,the employee is at the mercy of what his/her employer "thinks' is a "fair" wage and benefit plan...And let's not get into the health and safety aspect of non-union barns...

Yes, they are at their mercy or else they can leave. Are all non-union employers unfair and unconcerned about health and safety?

3.The cite I provided has nothing to do with whatever disparity there might be between the public and private sector in the US.What does show is the unmistakable disparity between wgaes,benefit plans,AND,time loss injury/death on the job instances between RTW states and Free Bargaining states.

It's time to forget about highlighting wages and benefits since they may be considered overcompensation. Let's highlight on the job injury/death with some damning "statistics" which can easily be found. That'll put the fear of the union in them.

As it relates to labour costs,corporations ARE in a race to the bottom.This is the easiest way to increase the bottom line.And they use different buzzwords to accentuate that point...

1."Competativeness"...See drive wage and ancillary employee costs (see benefit plans and insurance claims down)

2."Personal Freedom"...The standard RTW canard...designed to keep busines "union free" or break the financial backs of individual union locals by allowing for legislated free ride employee representation.

Yes.

We need more legislation to get rid of competitiveness and the "personal freedom" canards, don't we Jack. Or perhaps just repealing the Taft-Hartley act would be fine.

3."Productivity"...See less people doing more work for less money...

As much as you would like to you can't reduce productivity. No one wins when you do, as is evidenced by whole industries risking extinction in North America. Is it poorly managed businesses or unions or p[erhaps a combination of both with the added intervetnion of government to favour whatever side is in vogue at the time or contributes to the political process the most.

[Pliny]

Right to work legislation is designed to neuter unions. Statistics show such legislation results in diminshed earning capacity for those so affected.

If I have it right then the perception that unions be neutered is they are too demanding and kill businesses only hurrying up their "race to the bottom".

Unions want jobs but for some reason they keep disappearing on them. Those elusive jobs. Jack thinks businesses are racing to the bottom so they can kill jobs. Statistics will prove that out. When ever things are going great the company folds or moves away.

[Pliny]

Please note that the state employees fund 100% of their pensions through deferred compensation. It is also worth noting that these employees have already accepted pay and benefits costs.

Here's what that means.

"Again, the money the state "contributes" is actually part of the compensation that has been negotiated with state workers in advance so it is their money that they choose to take as pension payments in the future rather than cash wages or other benefits today."

According to the economic tax expert thar wrote this what the "State contributes" is nothing. While I agree with him that reporters often get economic facts wrong or misinterpret them I don't think he is doing any favours by telling us that the pensions are paid for 100% by deferred compensation. The State's contribution may have been a concession by the Union but it is still the State's contribution and it is left out of the total wage and compensation package of the employees.

The author of this article about pensions being paid through deferred compensation believes that taxpayer money is all in one big pot and if you move it around from pay and call it deferred compensation instead of a State contribution it somehow becomes a pension that is paid for 100% by the employee. In the private sector if the employee had their pension paid for 100% by the employer it would be impossible to confuse it as a deferred compensation package that came out of their negotiated benefits but is now not included in the total compensation package so that there is an apparency that the employer pays nothing.

[Shady]

As per Jack's request.

But ,of course,with your intimate knowledge of who's behind things like the RTW movement (you still cannot cite for me,or anyone else,what the NAM is or the Citizens Alliance is and what their goals are),you already knew these things...

I couldn't care less about NAM or Citizens Alliance. I care about taxpayers, and I care about public sector pyramid schemes known as their defined benefit pension plans.

Why would free entreprise/anti organized labour people like the Koch's ( who we know fund free market groups like the CATO Institute and other Right to Work groups) be interested in a state budgetary problem in Wisconsin???

Why are communist groups, and liberal groups like MoveOn.org and other liberal/socialist groups interested in Wisconsin budget issues?

What's in it for them if it was only about simply public sector bargaining rights???

What's in it for them is fighting to keep states from financial ruin, and therefore the country. If you haven't noticed, several other states are having similar problems. What's in it for the communist/liberal/socialist groups?

[blueblood]

As per Jack's request.

I couldn't care less about NAM or Citizens Alliance. I care about taxpayers, and I care about public sector pyramid schemes known as their defined benefit pension plans.

Why are communist groups, and liberal groups like MoveOn.org and other liberal/socialist groups interested in Wisconsin budget issues?

What's in it for them is fighting to keep states from financial ruin, and therefore the country. If you haven't noticed, several other states are having similar problems. What's in it for the communist/liberal/socialist groups?

Be careful, you could be receiving an "attitude adjustment" resulting in a louisville slugger emblem upside the head!

[pinko]

Here's what that means.

"Again, the money the state "contributes" is actually part of the compensation that has been negotiated with state workers in advance so it is their money that they choose to take as pension payments in the future rather than cash wages or other benefits today."

According to the economic tax expert thar wrote this what the "State contributes" is nothing. While I agree with him that reporters often get economic facts wrong or misinterpret them I don't think he is doing any favours by telling us that the pensions are paid for 100% by deferred compensation. The State's contribution may have been a concession by the Union but it is still the State's contribution and it is left out of the total wage and compensation package of the employees.

The author of this article about pensions being paid through deferred compensation believes that taxpayer money is all in one big pot and if you move it around from pay and call it deferred compensation instead of a State contribution it somehow becomes a pension that is paid for 100% by the employee. In the private sector if the employee had their pension paid for 100% by the employer it would be impossible to confuse it as a deferred compensation package that came out of their negotiated benefits but is now not included in the total compensation package so that there is an apparency that the employer pays nothing.

The state doesn't have the right to renege on it's commitment nor should it attempt to create an unfunded liability by such means.

[SF/PF]

It didn't work too good as a lot of manufacturers just went offshore.

And of course when you are defending your wages and benny's against being considered over-compensation. there are a different set of "statistics" to argue with.

Anyone that is paid more than a couple bowls of rice a day is probably "over-compensated" in the global labour market. Most people, even anti-union types, realize thats its impossible to compete with third world slave labour. And even if you somehow manage to compete, you'd still be the major loser in the competition.

[CANADIEN]

Let's look at this objectively.

Indeed.

Historically, and it is a PROVEN facts, the exact same methods employed in the US Deep South to deal with equal rights "troublemakers", from the use of baseball bats by the police to arson to even murder were used to keep would-be unionists in place, by the same people, with the same complicity from police forces, elected officials, judges. And it is telling that the impetus on the latest war on worker's rights originated from the same area.

Keep digging, and soon you'll be in China. The way they neutered unions there, you'll LOVE the working conditions.

PS: What civil liberties are you talking about? There is no such thing as a right to work. You said it.

[pinko]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-moore/america-is-not-broke_b_832006.html?utm_source=Triggermail&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Daily+Brief&utm_campaign=daily_brief

[CANADIEN]

As per Jack's request.

I couldn't care less about NAM or Citizens Alliance. I care about taxpayers

(...) and I have some Florida swamp property for anyone whpo buys that.

Why are communist groups, and liberal groups like MoveOn.org and other liberal/socialist groups interested in Wisconsin budget issues?

Why are you? Apart from your well-known hatred for anything to the left of Genghis Khan, I mean.

[bloodyminded]

Shady: "Why are communist groups, and liberal groups like MoveOn.org and other liberal/socialist groups interested in Wisconsin budget issues?"

CANADIEN: Why are you?

A perfect question.

Apparently, Wisconsin budget issues are important and instructive to right-wing Canadians...but left-wing Americans should mind their own business!

[Shady]

A perfect question.

Apparently, Wisconsin budget issues are important and instructive to right-wing Canadians...but left-wing Americans should mind their own business!

Who said anyone had to mind their own business?

[CANADIEN]

Who said anyone had to mind their own business?

Then why are you questioning why certain organizations you hate are getting involved?

[blueblood]

Indeed.

Historically, and it is a PROVEN facts, the exact same methods employed in the US Deep South to deal with equal rights "troublemakers", from the use of baseball bats by the police to arson to even murder were used to keep would-be unionists in place, by the same people, with the same complicity from police forces, elected officials, judges. And it is telling that the impetus on the latest war on worker's rights originated from the same area.

Keep digging, and soon you'll be in China. The way they neutered unions there, you'll LOVE the working conditions.

PS: What civil liberties are you talking about? There is no such thing as a right to work. You said it.

Do you know what happened as a result of workers having their civil rights infinged? Regulations and laws. As is the case in the south with african americans. How about the civil rights for those crossing the picket line? Workers who don't tow the union line are subject to the same kind of oppression by unions that you put in your post. Jack weber's post is proof positive of that.

You keep dodging that question. Answer it right now. Should "scabs" enjoy civil rights or not? Apparently your fine with attitude adjustments by baseball bat. Civil rights are a two way street. If you can't realize that, your a lost cause.

According to you unionists have the right to infringe upon the rights of "scab" workers while at the same time you cry foul (and rightfully so) when management in the 19th century abused their workers. You sir are a hypocrite. I don't need to dig to china, you already beat me there!

Edited March 7, 2011 by blueblood

[pinko]

Do you know what happened as a result of workers having their civil rights infinged? Regulations and laws. As is the case in the south with african americans. How about the civil rights for those crossing the picket line? Workers who don't tow the union line are subject to the same kind of oppression by unions that you put in your post. Jack weber's post is proof positive of that.

You keep dodging that question. Answer it right now. Should "scabs" enjoy civil rights or not? Apparently your fine with attitude adjustments by baseball bat. Civil rights are a two way street. If you can't realize that, your a lost cause.

Scabs deserve exactly what they get if stupid enough to cross a picket line. Of course most people know employers usually bus scabs across picket lines.

[bloodyminded]

Who said anyone had to mind their own business?

I'm just agreeing with CANADIEN's very accurate assessment: that you wonder aloud why American "liberals," "socialists," and (virtually non-existent) "communists" should be interested in the Wisconsin matter; but you don't seem to question why a conservative Canadian should.

[pinko]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110223/bs_ac/7921786_what_is_a_labor_union

[CANADIEN]

Do you know what happened as a result of workers having their civil rights infinged? Regulations and laws. As is the case in the south with african americans. How about the civil rights for those crossing the picket line? Workers who don't tow the union line are subject to the same kind of oppression by unions that you put in your post. Jack weber's post is proof positive of that.

You keep dodging that question. Answer it right now. Should "scabs" enjoy civil rights or not? Apparently your fine with attitude adjustments by baseball bat. Civil rights are a two way street. If you can't realize that, your a lost cause.

According to you unionists have the right to infringe upon the rights of "scab" workers while at the same time you cry foul (and rightfully so) when management in the 19th century abused their workers. You sir are a hypocrite. I don't need to dig to china, you already beat me there!

You don't even know what I think of unions, you hypocrite and imbecile.

Yes, it takes an hypocrit to whine "what about people who don't want to corss picket lines" and "there is no right to work" in the same sentence.

It takes an imbecile to say that this issue has any similarity with segregation.

Anybody who engages in something lawful should not be in put of physical harm for doing so. But let's be frank, shall we? As your imbecilistic reference to segregation proves aplenty, this is not about a right to work YOU say does not exist. It is about enabling employers to exploit workers. Have at least the intellectual honesty to admit it, will you?

And if it were about workers being safe at work, you would not be advocating measures that make the workplace less safe of an environment.

Bsides, if you knew what you are talking about (you are proving constantly that you don't), you would know I was talking about employer abuse not in the 19th century, but well into the 20th and, in same parts of the world with the kind of work standards you can only dream of, well into the 21th century.

Enough time wasted with your idiocy. Ignored.

[CANADIEN]

Scabs deserve exactly what they get if stupid enough to cross a picket line. Of course most people know employers usually bus scabs across picket lines.

Any scab deserves scorn. Anyone who advocates violence in labour disputes deserves even more of it, and anyonewho performs acts of vilence in labour disputes deserves unemployment, and jail.

[jefferiah]

Any scab deserves scorn. Anyone who advocates violence in labour disputes deserves even more of it, and anyonewho performs acts of vilence in labour disputes deserves unemployment, and jail.

Someone who wants to work because they need to make money, and is happy to do so for less than others, does not deserve scorn.

I've known people who worked for a private company who were called into do snow removal during a terrible storm when city employees were on strike. Those guys were harrassed by people with bats, all because they were trying to make a living. They have just as much right to it as anyone else. They also kept the roads clean. Imagine if one of those bat-waver's kids had a medical emergency. They'd be glad someone kept the roads clean for less money, with less manpower, doing a better job in less time.

Edited March 7, 2011 by jefferiah