The Lara Logan Incident

[bush_cheney2004]

If you peruse a site like this...

http://theync.com/

...one can see that beheadings are a daily event in both the Islamic world and the drug cartels. Common...not always reported.

Well, hell, no wonder Navy pilots wanted to just bomb Afghanistan with pornos and sex toys. Make love...not war!

George Bush was right....they hate us for our PORN!

Edited February 20, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[fellowtraveller]

There have also been a number of suggestions that it was basically her fault, that women, particularly western women, and even more particularly attractive blondes have no business going into areas where law and order has degenerated. Egypt, or at least, Cairo, is groper central, with 98% of foreign women reporting sexual harassment or assault during their stay there - on a daily basis. And that's during a time of law and order!

The assault on her may not be her fault, but it was certainly predictable and certainly predictable by herself. Numerous journalists and cameramen had been beaten and killed in the preceding days, and she was entirely aware of this since she headed up a journalists organization that tracked this very thing in Egypt. For any foreigner to be in that crowd at that time was putting yourself at extreme risk, and what puzzles me is why she felt she would be immune to the violence that was common. She was a very experienced pro who put herself and her security team in an uncontrolled sitiation, the outcome cannot be surprising.

In India, women complain that if they are wearing Western-style shorter skirts they are literally violated on the buses and trains, and unless it devolves into outright rape, the police will not even file charges against the offender....the presumption being that she was enticing male attention.

Just spent 5 weeks in India, and can assure you that what you say is complete, ignorant crap. It is a very safe place to travel overall, and the attitudes and practices of Egypt are simply not comparable.

[fellowtraveller]

I think Dick is right... the real reason this is in the news isn't that a reporter was assaulted, but that the reporter was *sexually* assaulted.

I think it is because she is the Chief Foreign Correspondent for a major US network and her abrupt abscence had to be explained. The story will now morph into heavy sympathy (and hey! a ratings bump) as we hear about the plucky courage of this brave freedom fighter recovering from her attack. Perhaps she can explain in her own words why she did what she did at that time and in that environemnt of extreme danger.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think it is because she is the Chief Foreign Correspondent for a major US network and her abrupt abscence had to be explained. The story will now morph into heavy sympathy (and hey! a ratings bump) as we hear about the plucky courage of this brave freedom fighter recovering from her attack. Perhaps she can explain in her own words why she did what she did at that time and in that environemnt of extreme danger.

Indeed...but let me say what hasn't dared been uttered yet. Ms. Logan is no stranger to controversy, sexual or otherwsie. As you have stated, she knew exactly what the score was. Nobody should condone her assault, but this journalist has a history of working both sides of the street, so to speak.

[Scotty]

Yes, but sexual harassment is worse for women who aren't all covered up. In India, women complain that if they are wearing Western-style shorter skirts they are literally violated on the buses and trains, and unless it devolves into outright rape, the police will not even file charges against the offender....the presumption being that she was enticing male attention. The same thing still goes in Italy from what we are hearing lately from women who have had large demonstrations against Berlusconi, and want these issues of sexual harassment and the constant bombardment of nude women on TV shows dealt with.....most of the TV happens to be owned by Berlusconi, so his latest sex scandal court trial has served as a useful event to deal with these issues. So, it's not just the Middle East where this is a problem; it's the presumption in many traditional cultures that men either arent' capable of, or shouldn't have to control their sexual impulses.....and it's the thinking of conservatives on this side of the ocean too!

There are certain cultures, like India, yes, where its open season on women alone. I had known that about India, but not suspected that was the case in the Arab world, given how incredibly conservative they are in regard to their women. This is a culture where a woman seen walking alone with a man can be killed for suspected indecency. Yet it seems the men don't hold themselves to the same standards of modesty and decency. It's like... can you imagine a bunch of Amish men reacting like this around a woman alone? Even a woman dressed in a mini skirt and tank top? It seems that in some cultures the women must be modest and behave properly but there are no restrictions on the men. In Italy, yes, compared to much of Europe, you'll see rude behavior, but nothing like in India or Cairo.

[Scotty]

Indeed...but let me say what hasn't dared been uttered yet. Ms. Logan is no stranger to controversy, sexual or otherwsie. As you have stated, she knew exactly what the score was. Nobody should condone her assault, but this journalist has a history of working both sides of the street, so to speak.

What does that even mean? She wasn't a virgin so she got what she deserved?

[bush_cheney2004]

What does that even mean? She wasn't a virgin so she got what she deserved?

It means that Ms. Logan has also had much more positive sexual experiences in the Mideast while on assignment.

Stupid Celebrities

[WIP]

The assault on her may not be her fault, but it was certainly predictable and certainly predictable by herself. Numerous journalists and cameramen had been beaten and killed in the preceding days, and she was entirely aware of this since she headed up a journalists organization that tracked this very thing in Egypt. For any foreigner to be in that crowd at that time was putting yourself at extreme risk, and what puzzles me is why she felt she would be immune to the violence that was common. She was a very experienced pro who put herself and her security team in an uncontrolled sitiation, the outcome cannot be surprising.

My point of interest is the little mentioned stories of other women who played a major role, especially in the early days of the Egypt Uprising, and aside from Mubarak thugs trying to infiltrate those demonstrations, the crowds were safe to be in. It was the party crowd afterwards that was dangerous and anarchic -- was made up of thousands who came out for the victory party, even though they would not step up earlier when there was risk involved.

Just spent 5 weeks in India, and can assure you that what you say is complete, ignorant crap. It is a very safe place to travel overall, and the attitudes and practices of Egypt are simply not comparable.

Oh, so you take a trip to India, and now you're an expert on a nation with over one billion people! Well, rather than take your word for it, I'm reporting on the news articles I noticed on this subject. I just happened to mention India, but I could have easily said Mexico, Indonesia, Brazil, Iran and surprisingly...Japan, since they are also nations who have introduced female-only public transitbecause of the high incidence of harassment and sexual assaults.

As for India specifically, it is likely articles such as this that got passing attention previously:

In our cities, the harassment women face on the street, in the public domain, has taken on new forms. It is not just the touch; it is also the talk and the look. Walk down a street in practically any city in India, big or small. It is rare that you get through unscathed. If you are not pushed and prodded, you will definitely hear unwanted comments. And even if you are stone deaf, you cannot avoid the look in the eyes of the beholder who virtually undresses you in public. So am I exaggerating? Is this just a generalisation? Is this not the lived experience of millions of women, particularly younger women?

Irrefutable data

We now have some data that establishes what we already know. We did not need it. Things can change without producing numbers to show the extent of the problem. The problem itself should be enough to warrant some attention, to invite some thought on how things can change.

In continuation of a campaign that they began in 2004, Jagori, a women's group based in Delhi, has conducted an interesting survey of Delhi in the context of women's safety. Some of their findings are not surprising; others make one pause and think about what needs to change in the way our cities are structured.

The study itself was a joint Initiative of the Department of Women and Child Development, Delhi, Jagori, UNIFEM and UN HABITAT. It included 3816 women, 944 men and 250 "common witnesses". The latter is an interesting category as it included men and women who would have witnessed incidents of sexual harassment. These could be shopkeepers, bus conductors or drivers, or others, men and women, who have fixed locations on streets or other public areas. As a result, the study is textured and also more credible.........................

The majority of those in the survey were under 35 years of age. Over 40 per cent of the women and around 37 per cent of the men were college or university educated. However, roughly half the men and women, and 93 per cent of the common witnesses earned less than Rs.10,000 a month.

For those who have lived, or live, in Delhi, it will come as no surprise that

85.4 per cent of the women, 87 per cent of the men and 93 per cent of the common witnesses said that sexual harassment was "rampant" in public places

and that this was the single most important factor that made Delhi an unsafe city.

The locations where such harassment takes place are also interesting. While 84.9 per cent of the women reported it in market places, 83 per cent talked about Metro stations, 82.4 per cent in areas around schools and colleges and 79 per cent in industrial areas. School and college students faced the highest incidence of verbal harassment as well as visual harassment (flashing, for instance). Interestingly,

public transport, particularly buses, were the places where women experienced the maximum sexual harassment.

This is something any woman who has had to travel on a DTC bus regularly can concur, regardless of her age.

Also significant is the fact that the

majority of women expressed a lack of confidence in the police, and said they would not automatically turn to them for help in the face of harassment in a public space

. Over 40 per cent of them felt that either the police

would not act, or they would trivialise the complaint

. In fact, according to the survey, very few women,

less than one per cent, have actually complained to the police about this kind of harassment when it occurs

. What is sad is that while the women had no faith in the police, those who witnessed acts of harassment admitted that they did not come forward to help, as they did not want to be involved.

The road was the location for the maximum amount of harassment, including while women waited at bus stops for their buses, followed by harassment once they actually got onto the bus.

Widespread violence

The survey concluded that

"women and girls face violence and the fear of it on a continuous basis in the city. Due to the fear of violence and harassment many women do not have the autonomy to freely move in a variety of public spaces . markets, parks, bus stops, roads."

None of this data is particularly startling. It pertains to Delhi but could be applied to most Indian cities in varying degrees.

In small cities, the absence of public transport probably forces more women to stay inside their homes, as their mobility is restricted

. In the bigger cities, although some forms of public transport are available, they are not geared to make women feel safe or comfortable. It is interesting that even the

much-celebrated Delhi Metro was cited as a place where women were harassed.

http://www.indiatogether.org/2010/aug/ksh-harass.htm

I know this issue is a matter of scale and degrees; sexual harassment and concerns regarding public safety, keep a lot of women off the streets late at night if they have to travel alone in my town, but it does appear that the problem is worse in India, and that there is still an attitude that women shouldn't be out there anyway......which is sort of the same attitude that social conservatives are trying to bring back here!

[ToadBrother]

I think the "sexual" aspect of the assault is being overplayed. Assault is assault...this same media angle was taken during the Gulf War when an American helicopter pilot was shot down, broke both her arms, and was sexually assaulted in captivity. She would have no special talk of her ordeal compared to other POWs, male or female, who were also assaulted.

Some reporters and journalists have taken far greater risks to win a Pulitzer. Just ask Daniel Pearl's severed head.

No special protection is warranted for Ms. Logan over what is prudent for any reporter, journalist, or crew.

You willingly go into an angry mob, you take your chances. What's there to be said about it? I wouldn't have done what she did, but it's good some journalists have the guts to do it, but it's a calculated risk, and sometimes journalists who embed themselves in dangerous situations don't make it out, at least in one piece.

Edited February 22, 2011 by ToadBrother

[Oleg Bach]

You willingly go into an angry mob, you take your chances. What's there to be said about it? I wouldn't have done what she did, but it's good some journalists have the guts to do it, but it's a calculated risk, and sometimes journalists who embed themselves in dangerous situations don't make it out, at least in one piece.

It is NOT a calculated risk. It is reckless...this incident is akin to taking a pretty girl from private school and dropping them off at 2 am...at a party being held by the Hells Angels...This should have never happened - I believe that some journalist and politicans really don't know how evil and conspiratorial human systems can be...Rape is a tool of conquest to break the human spirit and make the person dysfunctional..This poor woman will never be the same again...why in heavens name would you drop a young woman into the mouths of ravenous wolves...and expect her to come out in tack after going through this meat grinder?

[fellowtraveller]

Oh, so you take a trip to India, and now you're an expert on a nation with over one billion people! Well, rather than take your word for it, I'm reporting on the news articles I noticed on this subject.

Well, I am speaking from firsthand experience, pretty extensive experience in both India and travel in Muslim countries, and the two are simply not comparable.

You, on the other hand, are gathering anecdotes from Google searches from your basement. Why did you not mention those other countries. Did you gather rape statistics from Canada? Ever been to Teheran? Creepy place for men and women. Mumbai? Neither.

but it does appear that the problem is worse in India, and that there is still an attitude that women shouldn't be out there anyway......

Abso;lute uniformed nonsense. The 'problem' is not worse in India, I felt safer there than I would in late night Candian streets. Unlike Muslim countries like Egypt, Indian women are on the streets going about their business without accompaniment or approval from men, you are talking out your ass. Edited February 22, 2011 by fellowtraveller

[fellowtraveller]

This poor woman will never be the same again...why in heavens name would you drop a young woman into the mouths of ravenous wolves...and expect her to come out in tack after going through this meat grinder

There was no 'dropping ' her anywhere, she went because she thought she'd get a story and advance a burgeoning and already sucessful career. Ego.

[fellowtraveller]

It means that Ms. Logan has also had much more positive sexual experiences in the Mideast while on assignment.

Stupid Celebrities

Her sexual history is completely irrelevant and I find it really nasty that you would suggest it has any bearing on the events in Cairo.

[fellowtraveller]

Oh, and she could not possibly have not known the extreme danger, numerous reporters and camera crews had been assualted, there were serious injuries and death. They were specific targets for the pro-Mubarak crowd who blamed Western media for inciting the uprising. At best her presence was wilfully stupid.

[bush_cheney2004]

Her sexual history is completely irrelevant and I find it really nasty that you would suggest it has any bearing on the events in Cairo.

Then why should she be afforded any extra protections? I have already stated that her gender and status should be irrelevant.

[fellowtraveller]

She did not need extra protection, she needed some common sense to avoid a situation where she was a specific target. Not because she was a woman, but because she is a western journalist and therefore- based on immediate, local deaths and beatings- at serious risk to be there at that time. And she knew it.

Why would you post a gossipy link that implies she is a slut? For you, her gender and prociliities have some meaning or you would not have thought that link worthwhile. Care to explain why you linked that story? Nasty stuff.

[Scotty]

Well, I am speaking from firsthand experience, pretty extensive experience in both India and travel in Muslim countries, and the two are simply not comparable.

I'm sorry, but can I ask you more information about yourself? Are you an attractive woman, for example? Your opinion is pretty valueless if not. Did you ride the buses in India? Did you go into crowded marketplaces and pay attention to how women were treated? Do you understand the local language so that you can tell when men are being rude to the women nearby?

The study he posted was pretty convincing and your own first hand experience of a few weeks playing tourist would not seem to me to be of much worth in comparison to that.

[bush_cheney2004]

She did not need extra protection, she needed some common sense to avoid a situation where she was a specific target. Not because she was a woman, but because she is a western journalist and therefore- based on immediate, local deaths and beatings- at serious risk to be there at that time. And she knew it.

Apparently common sense was in short supply.

Why would you post a gossipy link that implies she is a slut? For you, her gender and prociliities have some meaning or you would not have thought that link worthwhile. Care to explain why you linked that story? Nasty stuff.

The site's title explains it all: Stupid Celebrities

[WIP]

Well, I am speaking from firsthand experience, pretty extensive experience in both India and travel in Muslim countries, and the two are simply not comparable.

I don't know who the hell you are, so why should I take your word -- someone on a forum who claims to be a globetrotter, over the news articles written by women who live there and are concerned about public safety? And you haven't identified whether you're a man or a woman...if you're a man, you don't have skin in this game in the first place.

You, on the other hand, are gathering anecdotes from Google searches from your basement. Why did you not mention those other countries. Did you gather rape statistics from Canada? Ever been to Teheran? Creepy place for men and women. Mumbai? Neither.

Says you! And I should just take your word on it? Whatever reasons you are so defensive about India is not my problem, or my concern.

[kimmy]

I remember seeing an episode of the American adventure gameshow "The Amazing Race" where a couple of female contestants were groped on a public train in Bombay. I realize that "The Amazing Race" is not a documentary, but that alone makes me doubt what Fellowtraveller is saying about women's safety in India.

-k

[Oleg Bach]

I remember seeing an episode of the American adventure gameshow "The Amazing Race" where a couple of female contestants were groped on a public train in Bombay. I realize that "The Amazing Race" is not a documentary, but that alone makes me doubt what Fellowtraveller is saying about women's safety in India.

-k

Any man that will persecute or harm a woman is also a man who will do the same to his own gender...It's just that they are cowardly and woman are phsically weaker and never had a dad like me who taught his daughter how to head but the teeth right out of your head- or how to punch with real impact- and yes when my girls were 6 and 7 I taught them how to handle a fire arm..safely and with accuracy - I am a good dad..if it was my daughter being attacked - she would have at least maimed a few of the barbarians.

[fellowtraveller]

The site's title explains it all: Stupid Celebrities

That would be the site you posted, along with a snide implication that she is a slut, as if that were true or matters.

Why did you post that link and comment?

[fellowtraveller]

I'm sorry, but can I ask you more information about yourself? Are you an attractive woman, for example? Your opinion is pretty valueless if not. Did you ride the buses in India? Did you go into crowded marketplaces and pay attention to how women were treated? Do you understand the local language so that you can tell when men are being rude to the women nearby?

No, pretty homely all around.

Buses: of curse, trains, taxis, rickshaws airplanes and many kms on foot.

Marketplaces> Of course, and stayed in or near many too- cheap hotels cluster around markets and transport hubs.

Rude: Life for women on the street looked very normal. In some Muslim countries, you rarely see women on the street. You knew that India has many religions, and Islam is a minority, right?

that alone makes me doubt what Fellowtraveller is saying about women's safety in India.

Then ask somebody you do know that has travelled in India, they will help clear up any misunderstandings. I would much rather walk down a darkened street in India(and did so many times in Dec and Jan, and on previous trips) than many streets in North America. Mumbai is far safer than say, Detroit. Or you could email my wife or daughter, both of whom have been and feel the same way.

where a couple of female contestants were groped on a public train in Bombay.

Amazing Race is 99.9% scripted and 100% storyboarded . Try again. And the city has been called Mumbai for quite some time now.

[bush_cheney2004]

That would be the site you posted, along with a snide implication that she is a slut, as if that were true or matters.

Why did you post that link and comment?

Sir, since you are intent on defending her honor, your demands must be acknowledged! You shall have satisfaction!

1) I am a crass knave.

2) Ms. Logan has a history of manipulation for her personal and professional objectives.

3) I never miss a chance to show a decent boob job.

Here is yet another afront to Ms. Logan's chaste honor:

http://glpiggy.net/2011/02/18/why-i-have-no-sympathy-for-lara-logan/

If you seek the ultimate satisfaction, I will meet you on the banks of the Potomac at dawn. Pistols or swords? Fair warning...I also cheat!

Edited February 25, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[fellowtraveller]

I have no intention of defending her hono(u)r, she is quite capable of same at this stage and has a much higher perch for doing so. No, I was more interested in your intentions with that first link.

Linking her personal life in Iraq as somehow connected to being sexually assaulted a thousand Kms and a couple years away? Wow. Nice.