Martin vs. Harper - Good vs. Evil

[noelandmero]

Funny I do love Klien he has made Alberta Canada's crown Jewel.

Calgary worlds healthiest City. according to the UN report released yesterday so I think perhaps Mr. klien knows how to run a health care system.

[Stoker]

Calgary worlds healthiest City. according to the UN report released yesterday so I think perhaps Mr. klien knows how to run a health care system.

Thats intresting, I hope Harper uses Calgary/Klines model for the entire nation.....

[noelandmero]

Also in march Calgary was ranked the world's environmental cleanliness city.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/03/11.../cities.survey/

So I hope Harper phones Mr. Klien up every day and asks him how while being such an enviromental, health care hating bigot he manages to do so well for Albertan cities.

[playfullfellow]

Like any politcian, Klein has not always done or said the right thing but overall most Albertans can relate to Klein because he is more real than anyone else. Klein is a get in your face type of politician who doesn't back down from a fight.

Is Klein evil, hardly, is Harper evil, nope. In all actuallity, none of the leaders are evil. Martin is an arrogant moron but not evil. Layton, well he smiles a lot but that does not make him evil. Duceppe, don't know much about him but I highly doubt he is evil.

Klein isn't talking about essential services when he is talking about privatizing healthcare. Alberta has already proven to some extent that certain privatization works, look at the eye clinics. Now people can get their eyes fixed anytime they want to and it has even become more affordable. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

The system is screwed and needs to be fixed, throwing more money at it will mean more beaurocrats will get raises and golf trips. The Alberta system is screwed up but not from Kleins lack of trying to fix it, Shirley McClelland tried but gave up, things were just too screwed up.

[takeanumber]

Mr. klien knows how to run a health care system.

[Stoker]

   

Good point.........explains why Calgary is listed as the worlds healthiest City....

[caesar]

Klein would probably do to his poor who cannot afford health care; as he did with those on welfare; Give them a bus ticket to BC. Nice guy.

[playfullfellow]

Ok takeanumber, you have some very interesting points of view, pretty radical in a lot of ways but that is your choice. You seem to have a very large target painted on Kleins head and don't obviously like him. Your choice of course, I may not agree with you, my choice. You talk about how Klein has made a mess of healthcare in Alberta but you have not made a point of how it should be fixed. I am interested to see how you would go about fixing it.

My personal views on healthcare is that it is too damn top heavy. Too many chiefs and not enough Indians. The healthcare system is also in shambles because everytime someones kid has a snotty nose, they run off to the doctors office or the emergency room. People are hypochondriacs and feel they need to run to the almighty doctor for pills everytime they get a fart stuck. I see nothing wrong with charging people 10-20 bucks if they run to emergency for non-emergency situations. There are lots ways to improve the system without throwing tonnes of bucks at it.

[noelandmero]

Calgary is Still the world's healthiest city so how can it's healthcare be that bad. Oh yeah it can't. Sure it could use some tweaking but nothing is ever perfect so quit complaining. By the way plafull that is one of the best ideas for the Canadian health care system. It will just never get put in because Canadians think health care is free. And I think the best way to end that would be to mandate that on all paycchecks people are informed of how much was taken out for health care.

[BQSupporter]

Read this account from Reporter Don Martin on the Liberal bus:

On Thursday morning, Prime Minister Paul Martin jumped the shark in a Tim Hortons in New Hamburg just outside Kitchener Ontario. A wet crowd -- if 20 can be called a crowd -- huddled outside the doughnut store and perhaps another dozen waited inside. One of the tour officials tried his level best to start a “Paul, Paul, Paul” chant as the prime minister’s bus pulled up, but found

no takers. After a brief round of handshakes, Martin told the ‘gathering,’ where journalists and tour staff outnumbered voters by a two-to-one margin, that their town recreation centre would be in jeopardy under a Conservative government -- before he joined in a spontaneous chorus of O Canada.

10 days to go.

[Common Sense]

Let me see - Paul Martin wiped out our deficit, put in economic policies that have given us the lowest unemployment and mortgage rates ever, and created three million jobs. He has turned us into one of the greatest developed countries in the world. And now he wants to make us even greater by putting billions into our social foundations that are recognized the world over as amongst the greatest of any nation. By contrast, Stephen Harper wants to put us $50 billion in the hole with unrealistic tax cuts and spending promises that don't even work (not to mention buying more freakin' military crap) AND he wants to build walls around his home province, work with the separatist Bloc, put all the power into the hands of the provinces (we all know what great track records they have!), and open up the door to banning abortion and instilling homophobic attitudes about our country's gay population.

Gosh, what a choice. Paul Martin or Stephen Harper Yes, I'm just as peeved about this whole sponsorship scandal as anyone, but I'm not about to throw my entire country down the toilet because of it. Paul Martin still has time to make it right in my eyes.

Paul Martin did NOT wipe out our deficit. He introduce 72 tax increases , in short he took money out of our pay cheques, our wallets, our purses, our savings, he put tax on tax, and he LIED to us. He is one of the quarterbacks of the billion dollar boondoogle and the adscam where a lot of OUR money was paid out for nothing and then half of it returned to the FIBERAL Party of Canada.

He removed 25 billion dollars from the health care system.

He is a politician from Quebec and every politician from Quebec is corrupt and tells lies. Trudeau who was a card carrying member of the Communist Party of Canada started the huge deficit that Canadians ended up with.

So if you want to vote for a liar, a cheat, a corrupt politician and whose nose has grown wider than the width of Canada then we know who and what you are.

If it walks like a duck then.......

[playfullfellow]

And I think the best way to end that would be to mandate that on all paycchecks people are informed of how much was taken out for health care.

I like that idea except I would probably be really grumpy after I read my monthly pay stub

[CanadianPatriot]

He is a politician from Quebec and every politician from Quebec is corrupt and tells lies.

I don´t consider myself a liberal, but lets be careful how we say things. I´m sure not every politician from Quebec is corrupt.

Anyway, back to the issue of this thread... I really don´t know how anyone can say one politician is ´´good´´ and the other is ´´evil´´. To me, it seems like politics these days has sunk to the level of picking the ´lesser of two evils´. Each and every politician has made mistakes and each has helped Canada in some way. No politician in Canada intends to destroy the country.

Stephen Harper wants to put us $50 billion in the hole with unrealistic tax cuts and spending promises that don't even work (not to mention buying more freakin' military crap) AND he wants to build walls around his home province, work with the separatist Bloc, put all the power into the hands of the provinces (we all know what great track records they have!), and open up the door to banning abortion and instilling homophobic attitudes about our country's gay population

$50 billion? Aren´t we exaggerating just a tad?

As for the military ´crap´... Our military is pitiful. West Edmonton mall has more submarines than the the Canadian navy has... I´m not saying we should go power hungry and try to build a killing machine of an army, however it is important for our men and women in the service to have proper equipment. Even peace keeping missions need proper equipment. We can´t help the world if we don´t have the proper equipment to do so.

Now for the ´´opening the door to banning abortion and instilling homophobic attitudes´´... I, personally, am against abortion. I think it is wrong. However, I do not want to get into that debate again... as much as I detest it, abortion is probably here to stay. However, I would like to see some restrictions put on abortions. Thousands of women get abortions every year and the majority of those are as a form of birth control. One of the main arguements for abortion is women who are pregnant because of rape or who´s lives are in danger if they give birth to the baby should have abortion as an option. Fine. Let the government pay for those women´s abortions, however women who´s pregnancy just isn´t ´convenient´shouldn´t have easy access to abortion. There should be restrictions applied... at very least they should have to pay for their own abortions and not the tax payers.

And lastly, instilling homophobic attitudes... this country is very divided over the issue of gay marriages and gay rights. I am not homophobic, but I believe marriage is something that should be reserved as a union between a man and a woman... and half the country agrees with me. I hope Harper is elected and I hope he settles this issue once and for all.

[Stoker]

playfullfellow, I agree with you 100%, 10-20 dollars would be a perfect amount to "discourage" waste in Healthcare.

noelandmero, another good idea........IIRC in BC, we spend almost as much on Healthcare as our country spends on defence.....and to think.....something like 75% goes to wages.......This is were I think "right to work laws" should come into affect......I'm sure there are tons of Russian and Eastern european Doctors that would willing to work for half the amount of our current crop......not to mention Filipino nurses that would be more then happy to work for 20 bucks an hour.....

I agree with you CP, what a great idea......let them pay for their own birth control.......if it's the case of a sexual assault or life and death situation, sure I don't mind at all, but if they are just to lazy to use a condom or they are teenagers that don't know any better, let them come up with a few hundred dollars.......

[Hugo]

However, I would like to see some restrictions put on abortions. Thousands of women get abortions every year and the majority of those are as a form of birth control.

98%, according to Planned Parenthood, are not for reasons of rape, incest, threat to life or health of the mother or defect and deformity in the fetus.

That means that last year, about 107,000 abortions in Canada (assuming the circumstances of Canadian women do not differ much in rape, incest, congenital deformity etc.) were performed for the reason of "none of the above." The cost of an early abortion is $450-600 (in British Columbia, according to Pro-Choice Network).

If we assume that all these abortions were early (perhaps 12-15% are not and thus are more expensive), and that they had no complications (some do, which can result in much more costly hospital treatment to correct) that means the cost to the taxpayer was over $56m for these 107,000 abortions.

The Guttmacher Institute (run by Planned Parenthood) finds that, when asked to give one or more reasons why they were having an abortion, patients answered in the following ways:

75% said it would interfere with their careers or education.

66% said they could not afford a child.

50% did not want to be a single parent, or were having relationship difficulties.

[CanadianPatriot]

It´s sad, isn´t it? How selfish people can be... to deny a child life solely because it would be inconvenient.

[Black Dog]

Some quick points: there's been much discussion over the costs of Harper's military platfrom, but no one here has articulated why we need a bigger military. Better paid, better equipped and better organized? Perhaps. But bigger isn't always better, and I for one would like to know what role Harper's expanded military is expected to play.

In light of the changing nature of 21st century warfare, how many of the new gadgets proposed by Harper are actually necessary to prserving our soverignty and protecting our citizens? To what degree does Harper wish to align our defense and foreign policies with those of the U.S.A?

This is, after all, the same man who once said: "The time has come to recognize that the U.S. will continue to exercise unprecedented power in a world where international rules are unreliable and where the security and advancing of the free democratic order still depend significantly on the possession and use of military might.",

the subtext being that Canada had best get on the U.S. bandwagon.

So, I think it's fair to question where Harper wants to spend our tax dollars and to what end and whether or not its something Canadians can agree with. To do so, we need a clearly articulated strategy and direction for teh military, not vague talk of "enhancing security" and "working with our allies".

However, I would like to see some restrictions put on abortions. Thousands of women get abortions every year and the majority of those are as a form of birth control. One of the main arguements for abortion is women who are pregnant because of rape or who´s lives are in danger if they give birth to the baby should have abortion as an option. Fine. Let the government pay for those women´s abortions, however women who´s pregnancy just isn´t ´convenient´shouldn´t have easy access to abortion. There should be restrictions applied... at very least they should have to pay for their own abortions and not the tax payers.

How much do publicily funded abortions cost us? How would those costs compare to a national child care program and a national mandatory program of comprehensive sex ed?

I agree with you CP, what a great idea......let them pay for their own birth control.......if it's the case of a sexual assault or life and death situation, sure I don't mind at all, but if they are just to lazy to use a condom or they are teenagers that don't know any better, let them come up with a few hundred dollars.......

Hey, while we're at it, let's get smokers to pay for their own cancer treatments, car accident victims to pay for their rehabilitation, people who eat fatty foods to pay for their own heart transplants, and pretty much let everyone fend for themselves.

From a social perspective, survival of the fittest ultimately leads to survival of none.

If we assume that all these abortions were early (perhaps 12-15% are not and thus are more expensive), and that they had no complications (some do, which can result in much more costly hospital treatment to correct) that means the cost to the taxpayer was over $56m for these 107,000 abortions.

So abortion costs each Candian about $2. Sounmds like a bargain compared to, oh I dunno, $500 million or so on new tanks.

The Guttmacher Institute (run by Planned Parenthood) finds that, when asked to give one or more reasons why they were having an abortion, patients answered in the following ways:

75% said it would interfere with their careers or education.

66% said they could not afford a child.

50% did not want to be a single parent, or were having relationship difficulties.

And in 100 per cent of cases, it was the woman's decision to have an abortion. As far as I'm concerened, that's the only stat that matters.

[falling leaf]

jacqueline944

Gosh, what a choice. Paul Martin  or Stephen Harper  Yes, I'm just as peeved about this whole sponsorship scandal as anyone, but I'm not about to throw my entire country down the toilet because of it. Paul Martin still has time to make it right in my eyes

Paul Martin had a chance to come clean and he would not answer the questions put to him by the quebec leader on the night of the debate . I was Liberal , but He has lied and will not tell the truth thats dirty politics which I will not have any part in

[Argus]

Some quick points: there's been much discussion over the costs of Harper's military platfrom, but no one here has articulated why we need a bigger military. Better paid, better equipped and better organized? Perhaps. But bigger isn't always better, and I for one would like to know what role Harper's expanded military is expected to play.

How about the role of "bare adequacy"?

Our jet fighters are almost antiques. Our tanks and armored personnel carriers ARE antiques. As are our helicopters. Our transport aircraft are ancient, and the only remaining transport ship we have is on its last legs.

You either need to put money into new equipment or let the military die entirely. And the majority of Canadians want the military brought up to some semblance of adequacy.

Right now we haven't enough troops for overseas roles, either with NATO or the UN, not and give them any kind of decent rotation time at home. We don't have the ships in either the navy or coast guard to protect our shores. Anyone who wants to come ashore, with drugs, people, weapons, whatever - will. Even what ships we have are mostly tied up to dock for lack of fuel and personnel. Our Air Force is ancient, as are its planes.

So the extra money and people will not exactly be making us a world power. At best it will make us less of a joke.

[Remus]

And in 100 per cent of cases, it was the woman's decision to have an abortion. As far as I'm concerened, that's the only stat that matters.

Then she should make that decision with her own credit card.

All those who defend abortion have had the privilege of being born.

[CanadianPatriot]

Hey, while we're at it, let's get smokers to pay for their own cancer treatments, car accident victims to pay for their rehabilitation, people who eat fatty foods to pay for their own heart transplants, and pretty much let everyone fend for themselves.

Hey, I´m for smokers paying their own cancer treatments. They knew the risks when they started smoking so why should we have to pay for their treatment? I know that sounds incredibly heartless, but seriously, how stupid can you be? Everyone knows smoking causes cancer. Simple. However accident victims are different... they couldn´t have done anything to avoid their situation. As for the fatty food eaters, apply restrictions to their treatment too... the first time they get sick and need an operation or something, give it to them. However if someone who is overweight has had medical treatment and then refuses to change their habits, resulting in more medical treatment, then it becomes their fault. Let them take responsibility. Same goes for abortions... everyone knows that if you have unprotected sex, pregnancy is probable. Why should tax payers have to pay for mistakes irresponsible individuals?

[Hugo]

Hey, I´m for smokers paying their own cancer treatments... As for the fatty food eaters, apply restrictions to their treatment too...

How about stopping fat people from suing McDonalds for millions, stopping smokers from suing Rothman, Benson and Hedges, and stop giving irresponsible teens free abortions?

Let people make their own mistakes - and then pay for them. It's called "learning." If there's no penalty for making a mistake, there's no incentive not to make that mistake again, and you learn nothing. 46% of abortions are repeat abortions, that figure having tripled since 1974. Are these women learning to be a little more careful and responsible with their sexual habits? Evidently not.

We're creating a society of irresponsible, immature idiots.

[CanadianPatriot]

Amen to that Hugo. Amen to that.

[Black Dog]

Why should tax payers have to pay for mistakes irresponsible individuals?

Because we have a duty to help our fellow citizens as best we can and not punish people for mistakes. As one prominent philosopher put it "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

It's a little concept called society. And a "devil take the hindmost" system social organization where in people are punished and reviled for being human and erring is not the kind of place I want to live in.

Then she should make that decision with her own credit card.

All those who defend abortion have had the privilege of being born.

Abortions are most common among low income women, who also have the least access to birth control and sex education. And self-righteous people like you are happy kicking them when they're down.

Let people make their own mistakes - and then pay for them. It's called "learning." If there's no penalty for making a mistake, there's no incentive not to make that mistake again, and you learn nothing. 46% of abortions are repeat abortions, that figure having tripled since 1974. Are these women learning to be a little more careful and responsible with their sexual habits? Evidently not.

The trouble with this notion is it assumes all things are equal: that all individuals have the capacity to make 100 per cent informed decisions and that every decision is uncoloured by social pressures or economic circumstances. Which is seldom the case.

It's unrealistsic and, above all, mean-spirited.

And I wonder how many of you have personally had to deal with making the choice of having an abortion, or have never made a mistake that society has covered for. I'll wager none of you are so pure.

You either need to put money into new equipment or let the military die entirely. And the majority of Canadians want the military brought up to some semblance of adequacy.

Fair enough. But i don't see a lot of harper's proposals as being "barely adequate". A 52 per cent increase in the size of the military is not an upgrade: it's a complete revamping.

[noelandmero]

Since when did personal responsabilty become a swear word in the real world it was makes people successful. I don't give my dog a strip of bacon for shitting in the living room I yell no at her and throw her outside. People are not hat much different.

Helping someone who has made a mistake once is honorable to keep doing it over and over is stupidity. There comes a time when you need to let people wallow in the disasters they have created or they will never learn. It is actually amazing how many of them decide living in poverty sucks and make trully wonderful success stories out of themselves.