Should there be changes for the working poor?

cybercoma · February 17, 2011

There are many jobs out there. Many places are hiring at good wages. If people lack the skills well then they should go get the skills that are in demand and stop moaning about it.

First of all, show me that there are many jobs out there at good wages. And how exactly does someone go out and get the necessary skills to find a job that's available out of their area of expertise when the "working poor" barely have enough money to put food on the table? Where are they getting the money for school, transportation, and childcare and how do they pay their living expenses while in classes? Oh sure, it's not impossible, but our current programs are not adequate for helping people do it.

Muddy · February 17, 2011

I employ people. For every hard working soul ,that is self motivated I go through five dolts who just want a pay cheque. I find it frustrating to continually be looking for work for an employee to do when things slow down. In a shop there are always chores to do. Lets face it. Some folks need structure in their work that only Burger King can give them. Nothing wrong with that . There is job security with very little self starting will to have job security. God bless these places for employing these kind of folks.

Saipan · February 17, 2011

First of all, show me that there are many jobs out there at good wages. And how exactly does someone go out and get the necessary skills to find a job that's available out of their area of expertise when the "working poor" barely have enough money to put food on the table? Where are they getting the money for school, transportation, and childcare and how do they pay their living expenses while in classes?

They are always free to escape to Cuba

How they do it in other countries? Say in Europe. If it was so bad here people would be emigrating elsewhere. Do you see it happening?

Molly · February 17, 2011

Take me through how someone making minimum wage starts their own business. I'm interested in how you think that would work.

Don't dismiss the prospect. Just as necessity is the mother of invention, a layoff notice is the mother of many a small business.

Nothing focuses the business-sense parts of the mind more effectively than being forced to add pawn shops and food banks to the list of the days activities. Yes, you can actually borrow a shovel to take from door to door, offering to clear sidewalks and driveways.

cybercoma · February 17, 2011

They are always free to escape to Cuba

How they do it in other countries? Say in Europe. If it was so bad here people would be emigrating elsewhere. Do you see it happening?

You've got a point. I guess if we're doing better than Cuba then everything is fine. It's like a woman that is abused by her partner. At least he didn't kill her.

Saipan · February 17, 2011

You've got a point. I guess if we're doing better than Cuba then everything is fine.

I got a point because we are doing better than Europe as well.

Mr.Canada · February 17, 2011

First of all, show me that there are many jobs out there at good wages. And how exactly does someone go out and get the necessary skills to find a job that's available out of their area of expertise when the "working poor" barely have enough money to put food on the table? Where are they getting the money for school, transportation, and childcare and how do they pay their living expenses while in classes? Oh sure, it's not impossible, but our current programs are not adequate for helping people do it.

Again it isn't my fault because some people chose not to finish their schooling or training. You all seem to think that these people who refused to go to college or Uni are owed something by the rest of us. I'm sorry but I don't think I should have to pay for someone else's mistakes.

The government shouldn't be solving all of our problems for us but you clearly think that it should. I don't need the government controlling every aspect of our lives but you want it involved in every step. It's appalling.

cybercoma · February 17, 2011

Don't dismiss the prospect. Just as necessity is the mother of invention, a layoff notice is the mother of many a small business.

Nothing focuses the business-sense parts of the mind more effectively than being forced to add pawn shops and food banks to the list of the days activities. Yes, you can actually borrow a shovel to take from door to door, offering to clear sidewalks and driveways.

I'm not dismissing the prospect. I asked you to take me through the process, which you do with your shovel example.

Though, I'm curious how one might make enough money to pay for food, clothing and shelter (w/ utilities) by carrying a shovel door-to-door. I just don't see someone making enough money that way to make it worthwhile. I suppose they could do it to supplement their fulltime minimum wage job (we are talking about the working poor), but that's going to be one lousy life working 60-80 hours per week just to make barely over minimum wage. Moreover, working that many hours a week how does one devote any time to re-training, learning new skills or looking for any other work? How does a parent spend time with their child?

Saipan · February 17, 2011

I'm curious how one might make enough money to pay for food, clothing and shelter (w/ utilities) by carrying a shovel door-to-door.

The brain has to come along too. Ask people who came here with absolutely nothing and barely able to communicate in English. And become well off.

how does one devote any time to re-training, learning new skills or looking for any other work?

By donating your TV to Salvation Army.

Mr.Canada · February 17, 2011

I'm not dismissing the prospect. I asked you to take me through the process, which you do with your shovel example.

Though, I'm curious how one might make enough money to pay for food, clothing and shelter (w/ utilities) by carrying a shovel door-to-door. I just don't see someone making enough money that way to make it worthwhile. I suppose they could do it to supplement their fulltime minimum wage job (we are talking about the working poor), but that's going to be one lousy life working 60-80 hours per week just to make barely over minimum wage. Moreover, working that many hours a week how does one devote any time to re-training, learning new skills or looking for any other work? How does a parent spend time with their child?

Oh my God. It isn't our problem. The rest of us shouldn't have to pay for others mistakes. These people chose not to go to college or Uni or in some cases even finish high school. So of coarse they making less money then someone who has, more times then not.

These people need to figure out their own lives like the rest of us have. The taxpayer isn't responsible for running their lives and planning their future. people need to take responsibility for their own lives....man this is getting sad. This new generation has a serious sense of entitlement.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Mr.Canada

cybercoma · February 17, 2011

Oh my God. It isn't our problem. The rest of us shouldn't have to pay for others mistakes. These people chose not to go to college or Uni or in some cases even finish high school. So of coarse they making less money then someone who has, more times then not.

These people need to figure out their own lives like the rest of us have. The taxpayer isn't responsible for running their lives and planning their future. people need to take responsibility for their own lives....man this is getting sad. This new generation has a serious sense of entitlement.

How do you know these people can't make ends meet because of their own mistakes? Many of them don't. The cyclical nature of the economy means many people will find themselves without a job through no fault of their own. They're ready, willing and able to work but can't find a job. Moreover, rapid changes in modern technology may make a person's education that they received 10 years ago completely obsolete. Some people who have been working in the same job for 30 years have their jobs eliminated by modern technology and need to upgrade their skills, but perhaps they are too old to devote the time to this and even if they do maybe they're too close to retirement for an employer to consider seriously.

The problem is that you refuse to accept the reality that many people end up on social assistance not by their own choosing. In fact, the vast majority of people would rather NOT be on social assistance. There are numerous barriers to escaping social assistance once you get on it. Every major political party in this country has accepted the social safety net as necessary. In fact, it was the conservative Bismarck government in Germany during the 1800s that began an early form of employment insurance to promote social stability, which makes things better for business and the economy as a whole. Nonetheless, before the 1800s England had begun to establish poor laws in the 1600s. If the primary role of government is security, then social security ought to be one of their primary concerns.

cybercoma · February 17, 2011

By donating your TV to Salvation Army.

I'm sure working that many hours, someone in the proposed situation would spend all kinds of time watching TV. :rolleyes:

madmax · February 17, 2011

That's against the law. Why haven't you reported that practice to authorities? And frankly, businesses don't like, or get good results forcing people to work 60 hour weeks.

Not sure where you live. But this is exactly what the employment is in my region. Its very common and it is NOT illegal.

Especially for Elect to work employees, or larger corps who have legal permission.

And of course anyone in Trucking has been working 60hour weeks at straight pay for as long as I can remember.

Regardless, we have around 800 temp agencies in the region scooping up the gravy making around $5 to $15 an hour off the backs of their employees.

I know of many "Temps" who drive 55 minutes to work for their shift and get sent home before the shift starts. Then are asked to come back the next day at 11pm and sent home again, then asked the next day and are kept for 4 to 8 hours. Works out to alot of driving and not alot of pay.

Regardless 70% of new employees are created as fulltime temp, elect to work employees.

THere is usually 3 levels of employment structures.

And much of HR is outsourced either out of country, to places like Central America, and the rest through the agencies. And then there is a firm, who manages in between the company, the Agencies, and the Foreign 3rd world Papershufflers.

My Experience with this very popular model used by many many companies is that you are correct.

It doesn't get "Good results" or High Productivity.

But who cares? Its "cheaper" in their minds, the marketing of the agencies is brilliant, even if it costs a hell of a lot more in both the short and long term, the fact is the responsibility is removed to someone else.

I can compare this model to many other superior models, but this is the model adapted by most industries and service sectors.

Disposable Labour Force. Cheap labour. Big Profits for Agencies.

The work gets done in the end.

Is it better?

I don't think anyone really cares as it is the model of choice.

Pay an agency to send you 20 warm bodies. They may send 25 cause they aren't sure if everyone will show. Then Send 5 home.

Whether they work 60 hours or 2 hours makes no difference.

And no their isn't going to be overtime and hours are shuffled and averaged.

Often even if overtime is to be legally paid, anyone who challenges will spend 1 year in the system. And will never see work again. And you may get your $80, and the company will get fined $150.

Holding onto peoples pay and charging them to collect it is another cool trick.

Imagine if you were charged $20 every two weeks to receive your pay.

many charge a rate of $2 per day of work.

Also, pay them for your gloves, your ride, your glasses, and I have seen some people come home with $36 after a 12 hour shift.

Good stuff....

I have seen Millwrights travel monies and premium pays swallowed up by the agencies.

The company will pay the agencie these perks, thinking its goes to the workers.

It often does not.

Its a great way to make skilled trades, "The working Poor"

There are more working poor today then every before.

Many work in very profitable companies, and then go to Food banks, where that very profitable company has donated some of their products.

Its kinda disgraceful, but then again. People tend to be good natured, dedicated workers not wanting to cause trouble.

The Working Poor should not be shit on.

They are "Working" they are poor.

I would never crap on the person who smiles and serves me coffee everymorning.

But one jackass on MLW wants to ship her up North. And obviously has no idea of the unemployment rates or cost of living in Northern Ontario.

Edited February 17, 2011 by madmax

Molly · February 17, 2011

I'm sure working that many hours, someone in the proposed situation would spend all kinds of time watching TV.

Hold on half a moment here. What, exactly is 'the proposed situation'? Do you have any stats defining the working poor? (Not those on social assistance.)

Who are these people?

So someone said 4% of workers are at minimum wage? Of that, how many are their own primary breadwinner? How many would consider their actual wage to be the lesser part of their income (tips and gratruities; room and board etc.)? How many have been engaged at that job long enough (more than 3 months) to be off probation?

What constitutes 'poor', and how did these folks find themselves in that situation? How many, for instance, are self-employed, and tolerating the poverty in hope of building up that enterprise?

madmax · February 17, 2011

So someone said 4% of workers are at minimum wage?

The % on minimum wage far exceeds 4%. I would like to know where that fig comes from. Considering most of the jobs created over the last 1/2 generation have been part time. Its an interesting stat and I am sure that it came from somewhere, but doesn't reflect what is really happening. It is quite possible that if a company uses 700 fulltime temps, and pays the agency $14 to $17 per person, whereas the worker gets minimum wage, that this skews the numbers considerable. But that is just one element.

And "minimum wage" has many "Lower tiers" where the minimum wage is far less then what people believe.

Especially when we bring in Foreign workers on Agency contracts.

Of that, how many are their own primary breadwinner?

It will be

1 or 2 and more if the children are of age to work. Its not a bad thing to see the kids picking strawberries or working at Tims/McDonalds...but when I see kids looking for work, cause both mom and dad lost their jobs and maybe he can find some work, then you can start to see the pressures on the family.

How many would consider their actual wage to be the lesser part of their income (tips and gratruities; room and board etc.)? How many have been engaged at that job long enough (more than 3 months) to be off probation?

traditional probation on minimum wage work has moved into the 2 year bracket in many locations. Sometimes 1 year, sometime 2. But honestly, if you work somewhere for 2 years and get off the probation nad move to $14, the % of people who continue to work on probation is in the 96% range and that can continue to infinity as I have seen people working "on probation" hoping to get hired for over a decade in service working side by side another employee who makes $18 to $20. Only to find that "long term" probationary employee training a new employee , (Relative or Friend of a secure employee) to then start work immediately at the full rate and no "probation" not even 3 months.

However probation is an arbitrary word. I find every day is probation and termination can come at anytime for poor performance. Probation is just something people understand, and is sometimes used as the benchmark to receive a higher wage or benefits.

Again this has moved up significantly, while some have 6 month, its often much higher now.

What constitutes 'poor', and how did these folks find themselves in that situation? How many, for instance, are self-employed, and tolerating the poverty in hope of building up that enterprise?

You hit a big one there. In downturns, people tend to turn to those that can help them the best. And that is often, THEMSELVES and Self Employment simply exists as people need to exist. And yes that self employment is often below the minimum wage or steady hours, until something is established for long term sustainable work or contracts.

I call that the slow burn, to avoid losing your house. But once that happens, your income an assests have diminished.

Ironically, in the midst of the Recession, the Conservative Government Cut off funding to the Self Employment Benefit Fund, that was administered through EI.

The program "existed" there was just no money in it?

Why, the CONS gave the EI FUNDS to the banks, and to large profitable corporations closing down here and setting up operations in Mexico and Offshore.

The Libs are guilty of the same thing.

But the some of the Cons here are so "full of it" I am tired of their rhetorhic and bashing the working poor.

Thankfully, not all the Con supporters in this thread are complete assholes and respect those trying to carve out a living and do those jobs that pay low, are physically/Mentally demanding and have to be done at all hours of the day and weekends.

Michael Hardner · February 17, 2011

Oh my God. It isn't our problem. The rest of us shouldn't have to pay for others mistakes. These people chose not to go to college or Uni or in some cases even finish high school. So of coarse they making less money then someone who has, more times then not.

These people need to figure out their own lives like the rest of us have. The taxpayer isn't responsible for running their lives and planning their future. people need to take responsibility for their own lives....man this is getting sad. This new generation has a serious sense of entitlement.

The thing is - you're not looking at yourself with the same critical eye.

1. You did have society pay for your mistakes when you accepted social assistance when on the streets of Toronto.

2. You haven't dealt with your issues (at least it seems that way) and haven't therefore "figured out your life".

I actually understand certain types of Republicans, who are truly self-made, in that they expect others to be as strong as they were. They don't recognize their own exceptional nature, which is the flip-side of discounting one's own faults.

But you were given a leg-up by real leftists, whom you refuse to acknowledge. They may have even saved your life.

madmax · February 17, 2011

The thing is - you're not looking at yourself with the same critical eye.

1. You did have society pay for your mistakes when you accepted social assistance when on the streets of Toronto.

2But you were given a leg-up by real leftists, whom you refuse to acknowledge. They may have even saved your life.

Mr Canada must be very very old. Most of the programs that benefited lower working class and misguided youth of the 60s to the 80s, which ultimately created the wealth and better life many of them hold today, including a nest egg for retirement, where diminished and eliminated by most governments of the 90s.

Todays students whom go to post 2ndary are coming out with HUGE MASSIVE DEBT and job prospects in a decent field of study that pay Minimum, just above minimum, or commission sales that will take many many years to build until sustainability is achieved.

They will be working poor for many years even if they do end up earning a good living, they will have debt and accumulated interested that will take over a decade to repay.

Bonam · February 17, 2011

First of all, show me that there are many jobs out there at good wages. And how exactly does someone go out and get the necessary skills to find a job that's available out of their area of expertise when the "working poor" barely have enough money to put food on the table? Where are they getting the money for school, transportation, and childcare and how do they pay their living expenses while in classes? Oh sure, it's not impossible, but our current programs are not adequate for helping people do it.

Man people today are such whiners. You work your 8 hour job, that still leaves you 16 other hours in the day. Plenty of time to acquire skills, work a 2nd job, or whatever else. Work your ass off for a few months/years til you get ahead a bit. I know people that hold full time jobs (8+ hours/day) while also being in grad school full time (40+ hours/per week of classes + studying + research). You don't get much sleep for a few years, and certainly no social life, but you certainly can do it. How do you get money for school? You work your ass off and get good grades so you can get a scholarship.

If someone is too freaking lazy to do something besides their 8 hour job, then that's where they are gonna stay. It's no one else's fault but their own. Why the hell do those of us who spent our 20s working 16+ hours a day to accomplish what we wanted have to subsidize slackers?

As for child care, ever hear of a freaking grand parent?

Edited February 17, 2011 by Bonam

cybercoma · February 17, 2011

Man people today are such whiners. You work your 8 hour job, that still leaves you 16 other hours in the day. Plenty of time to acquire skills, work a 2nd job, or whatever else. Work your ass off for a few months/years til you get ahead a bit. I know people that hold full time jobs (8+ hours/day) while also being in grad school full time (40+ hours/per week of classes + studying + research). You don't get much sleep for a few years, and certainly no social life, but you certainly can do it. How do you get money for school? You work your ass off and get good grades so you can get a scholarship.

If someone is too freaking lazy to do something besides their 8 hour job, then that's where they are gonna stay. It's no one else's fault but their own. Why the hell do those of us who spent our 20s working 16+ hours a day to accomplish what we wanted have to subsidize slackers?

As for child care, ever hear of a freaking grand parent?

Must be nice to be able to put 24 hours a day in, never sleep and have other people look after your children for you.

Molly · February 17, 2011

Got any kids, Bonam?

You might want to see enough of them to be able to recognize them and have them recognize you.

Their grandparents... might not want to take time off work to babysit 'em.

Edited February 17, 2011 by Molly

Mr.Canada · February 17, 2011

Must be nice to be able to put 24 hours a day in, never sleep and have other people look after your children for you.

No one forced this person to have children. We aren't animals, we have control over whether or to mate or not. Wear a bloody condom.

They had children they couldn't afford to raise and now they're forcing me to pay for it?

No way!

Edited February 17, 2011 by Mr.Canada

Bonam · February 17, 2011

Must be nice to be able to put 24 hours a day in, never sleep and have other people look after your children for you.

I didn't say work 24, I said work 16, if you have to. And yeah, some days you can work 24 if you really need to get something done. I've done it plenty of times. Obviously not every day.

guyser · February 17, 2011

Usually when people work hard and do a good job they get raises.

So says the Union Rep.

Youve dodged this enough times. We all know hard work and a raise are mutually exclusive in a union shop. One gets the raise no matter how lazy he or she is.

Want to comment Mr C ? I bet not, just like the last 4 times.

segnosaur · February 17, 2011

First of all, show me that there are many jobs out there at good wages. And how exactly does someone go out and get the necessary skills to find a job that's available out of their area of expertise when the "working poor" barely have enough money to put food on the table? Where are they getting the money for school, transportation, and childcare and how do they pay their living expenses while in classes? Oh sure, it's not impossible, but our current programs are not adequate for helping people do it.

Some people actually go and get private loans/lines of credit in order to help tide them over.

Granted, there is a risk that any person might spend years in school and still find themselves unemployed (and now in serious debt), but it does provide an incentive to select classes that are useful. Taking Engineering, medicine, etc.=useful. Taking philosophy, underwater basket weaving=not useful. (At least in terms of improving your income and financial status).

How do you know these people can't make ends meet because of their own mistakes? Many of them don't. The cyclical nature of the economy means many people will find themselves without a job through no fault of their own. They're ready, willing and able to work but can't find a job. Moreover, rapid changes in modern technology may make a person's education that they received 10 years ago completely obsolete.

Just out of curiosity, what area of technology are you thinking of that's becoming "completely obsolete"?

I work with computers. I suspect my area of employment changes faster than the "average" job. Yet I have managed to stay employed without taking time off for new training. (The reason? While technology changes, concepts learned earlier are relevant and easily adaptable to new situations.)

Some people who have been working in the same job for 30 years have their jobs eliminated by modern technology and need to upgrade their skills, but perhaps they are too old to devote the time to this and even if they do maybe they're too close to retirement for an employer to consider seriously.

If a person has been working at some skilled job for 30 years, I would assume they would have built up equity (savings, retirement plans, etc.) As such, if they did get laid off, they should be able to survive even if the only job they find is working at Wal-Mart.

I myself am in a skilled trade. I've been working in my field for less than 20 years. Yet if I got laid off tomorrow, I could still make ends meet even if I took a part-time minimum wage job. Granted, it would mean delaying the purchase of a new car, etc. but I'd still live pretty well. In 30 years I'd probably have enough to retire.

madmax · February 18, 2011

So says the Union Rep.

Youve dodged this enough times. We all know hard work and a raise are mutually exclusive in a union shop. One gets the raise no matter how lazy he or she is.

Want to comment Mr C ? I bet not, just like the last 4 times.

Been everywhere and on both sides of the fence in both Union and Non Union Shops.

Hard Work is a myth. Productivity is not.

Don't perpetuate more myths.

Especially since you work in a protected industry.