Wild Bill Posted February 12, 2011 Report Posted February 12, 2011 First of all, I think this is a little bit beside the point I was making: that casualties of US military atatcks, and the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israelis, has improved as a direct result of protest, of scrutiny and anger by members of the public. Second, whle I understand your distinctions, they are less black-and-white than they appear at first blush. For example, when we undertake a military action, and we know (as we sometimes do) that civilians are going to be killed...well, those are intentional killings. Unequivocally, they are. They're not targeted; I agree with that distinction. But they are intentional. But in a way it's moot: because even if we do not target civilians (which is not a definite, by the way, it's not an absolute given)...we have been known to materially and knowingly support proxies who do target civilians, and at worse rates than, say, the militant wing of Hamas. That means we do target civilians; if we support it, and make it, in fact, possible in the first place, we're guilty. Period. If they ARE doing such things, at least Uncle Sam and Israel have enough shame to try to hide it! Too many damn Arab groups BRAG about it! Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
bloodyminded Posted February 12, 2011 Report Posted February 12, 2011 If they ARE doing such things, at least Uncle Sam and Israel have enough shame to try to hide it! And Canada. The UK. Etc. I don't mean continually, by the way. But it happens. Evidently, it's normal behaviour. Too many damn Arab groups BRAG about it! We try to hide it because there are election campigns to worry about, and public pressure. Which brings it back to my original point. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
bud Posted February 12, 2011 Author Report Posted February 12, 2011 The idea that the neocons are "democratic idealists" is one of the more astonishing political myths of the past decade. *ding* Quote http://whoprofits.org/
Scotty Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 I once surfed the forum site of "Stormfront," the White Supremacist group, and they are conservatives to a man, no exception. I think they're so extreme you can't really refer to them as 'conservatives'. I think such people, filled with paranoia and conspiracy theories go beyond the political template and are just out there on their own, with no politically handy reference points to relate them to anything anywhere near the mainstream. I mean do we call the Maoists "liberals"? Are the Marxist Leninists and that ilk Liberals? I don't think so. And how many of those crazy groups are there anyway? I've never met one. And I know a lot of people. In any event, they're not the ones harassing Jews at universities, now are they? And in most of the cases I've seen where the police have made an arrest for firebombing a Jewish school or temple it hasn't been the crackers from the extremist fringes but 'new canadians'. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 Israel does commit serious human rights abuses. Every nation in the middle east commits serious human rights abuses. Do you disagree? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
GWiz Posted February 13, 2011 Report Posted February 13, 2011 Every nation in the middle east commits serious human rights abuses. Do you disagree? "Man's inhumanity to man" isn't restricted to any region... Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
bud Posted February 14, 2011 Author Report Posted February 14, 2011 Every nation in the middle east commits serious human rights abuses. Do you disagree? which one of these nations do we show support for? Quote http://whoprofits.org/
PIK Posted February 14, 2011 Report Posted February 14, 2011 which one of these nations do we show support for? The democratic one. Quote Toronto, like a roach motel in the middle of a pretty living room.
bud Posted February 15, 2011 Author Report Posted February 15, 2011 The democratic one. so any nation who calls itself democratic should be given a free pass when it comes to violating human rights and international law? is violating human rights part of being a democratic nation? do tell. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
Scotty Posted February 15, 2011 Report Posted February 15, 2011 so any nation who calls itself democratic should be given a free pass when it comes to violating human rights and international law? is violating human rights part of being a democratic nation? do tell. It is part of being a democratic nation at war. It's kind of hard to ensure everything is done politely in wartime. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
GWiz Posted February 15, 2011 Report Posted February 15, 2011 It is part of being a democratic nation at war. It's kind of hard to ensure everything is done politely in wartime. There are wars and then there are wars... Truth be told so called wars, like war on drugs, war on poverty or war on Terror, to name a few, are NOT wars at all... So perhaps certain actions taken by a country in the name of such wars are NOT justified in the actions they have taken? Quote There are none so blind, deaf and dumb as those that fail to recognize, understand, and promote TRUTH...- GWiz
bud Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Posted February 16, 2011 It is part of being a democratic nation at war. It's kind of hard to ensure everything is done politely in wartime. are you seriously trying to sweep what israel has done under the rug as 'oh it's just a nation at war'? really? the goldstone report, headed by a respected international judge, experienced in international law, war crimes prosecutor, a nazi hunter and who happens to be a zionist (yes, it matters, since the israeli apologist will try to discredit anyone due to their background) found that israel committed war crimes in gaza. israel continues to violate international law by illegally occupying and expanding settlements, not to mention the illegal wall that has cut into the palestinian land, which has been deemed illegal by the international court of justice. all major human rights organizations have repeatedly called on israel's numerous violations committed by israel. canada's official stance in regards to the occupied territories is in line with the UN. of course, harper has decided to push all that aside and become an unconditional supporter of israel. harper is an embarrassment. Quote http://whoprofits.org/
Wild Bill Posted February 16, 2011 Report Posted February 16, 2011 are you seriously trying to sweep what israel has done under the rug as 'oh it's just a nation at war'? really? the goldstone report, headed by a respected international judge, experienced in international law, war crimes prosecutor, a nazi hunter and who happens to be a zionist (yes, it matters, since the israeli apologist will try to discredit anyone due to their background) found that israel committed war crimes in gaza. israel continues to violate international law by illegally occupying and expanding settlements, not to mention the illegal wall that has cut into the palestinian land, which has been deemed illegal by the international court of justice. all major human rights organizations have repeatedly called on israel's numerous violations committed by israel. canada's official stance in regards to the occupied territories is in line with the UN. of course, harper has decided to push all that aside and become an unconditional supporter of israel. harper is an embarrassment. Bud, the reason they continue to occupy the land is because past experience has shown that if Israel withdraws various Arab groups seize the opportunity to get a closer launching site for their rockets! I just can't understand how so many people expect Israel to just sit there and let the rockets fall where they may! Virtually nobody ever talks about providing some sort of security for the Israeli people. It's all about giving back the land and who cares if a rocket falls on a busload of orphans or whatever. I think any country that would cheerfully allow itself to be so repeatedly attacked would have to be governed by idiots! Anybody that expects them to do this would have to be a bigger idiot! What would you do if some terrorists groups were lobbing rockets into your neighbourhood every day, just for the fun of it? What would you tell someone who told you to just shut up and take it? As I've said before, I've never heard of a case where Israel deliberately targeted civilians. They've had civilians killed as collateral damage but usually that was because somebody like Hamas used them as human shields. Meanwhile, Arab groups deliberately target Israeli civilians all the time! They're actually proud of it! I have little interest in nitpicking the politics of the region. To me, things are very simple. Those who target civilians as their primary targets are terrorists, by definition. They forfeit the right to be considered human beings. Doing unto them as they do unto others is the only way to correct or put a stop to their behavior. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Scotty Posted February 16, 2011 Report Posted February 16, 2011 are you seriously trying to sweep what israel has done under the rug as 'oh it's just a nation at war'?[ I'm pointing out that in a country at war circumstances and conditions lend themselves to individual and group actions which would not happen or are far less likely to happen in a nation at peace. the goldstone report, headed by a respected international judge, experienced in international law, war crimes prosecutor, a nazi hunter and who happens to be a zionist (yes, it matters, since the israeli apologist will try to discredit anyone due to their background) found that israel committed war crimes in gaza. Well, there are war crimes and then there are war crimes. all major human rights organizations have repeatedly called on israel's numerous violations committed by israel. Of course. It's quite the popular target. One wonders why they spend so much less effort on the human rights abuses in surrounding nations. canada's official stance in regards to the occupied territories is in line with the UN. of course, harper has decided to push all that aside and become an unconditional supporter of israel. I've seen no evidence to support that opinion. harper is an embarrassment. I quite disagree. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
bud Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Posted February 16, 2011 Bud, the reason they continue to occupy the land is because past experience has shown that if Israel withdraws various Arab groups seize the opportunity to get a closer launching site for their rockets! with all due respect, your comment does not add up and does not make sense. the occupation AND the expansion (you forgot this important part - that the israeli government continues to expand the settlements), has been going on for decades. the rocket attacks are relatively new and were not happening in the past. lets be honest about the situation: despite what the apologists say, the occupation and expansion has nothing to do with israel's security. in fact, israel would be more secure if they stopped violating the law. gaza is still 'occupied' by the legal definition. israel has control over the airways, the borders and the movement in and out of the territory. it's basically an open air prison. israel continues to put extreme pressure on the gazans by limiting what goes into the territory. this of course, is a violation of humanitarian law. so please don't try insult anyone's intelligence with the security mumbo jumbo. the theory just doesn't add up. As I've said before, I've never heard of a case where Israel deliberately targeted civilians. They've had civilians killed as collateral damage but usually that was because somebody like Hamas used them as human shields. investigations and reports by various groups, including the goldstone report have concluded otherwise. Meanwhile, Arab groups deliberately target Israeli civilians all the time! They're actually proud of it! really? here are jews in new york, celebrating the killing of arabs. I have little interest in nitpicking the politics of the region. you should find the interest in the truth instead of repeating myths orchestrated by the hasbara (israeli propaganda machine) Quote http://whoprofits.org/
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