Oleg Bach Posted April 2, 2011 Report Posted April 2, 2011 God is LAW - you can not be moral with out the rule of law...If there was not the idea of God or goodness...Then we would go about bashing the next guys head in with a rock if we desired his food,money or wife. Quote
Jack Weber Posted April 2, 2011 Report Posted April 2, 2011 And speaking of D'Souza, what a timely and appropriate question to ask on this thread... Can we really be moral without God? Really? Sure you can be moral without being "Godly"... And I'm a Christian... Now,it may be that an Atheist,or an Agnostic,might co-opt the moral codes of the Bible and use it as a moral compass without believing what The Book says...They also might not want ot admit that.... But they are moral just the same... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
dre Posted April 2, 2011 Report Posted April 2, 2011 God is LAW - you can not be moral with out the rule of law...If there was not the idea of God or goodness...Then we would go about bashing the next guys head in with a rock if we desired his food,money or wife. Religious morality comes from humans, not the other way around. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted April 2, 2011 Report Posted April 2, 2011 Sure you can be moral without being "Godly"... And I'm a Christian... Now,it may be that an Atheist,or an Agnostic,might co-opt the moral codes of the Bible and use it as a moral compass without believing what The Book says...They also might not want ot admit that.... But they are moral just the same... The moral code expressed in all of the various bibles and also in our legal system comes from humans, not the other way around. Most of it is intrinsic to human nature... People dont think its wrong to bash in their neighbors head and rape his wife because Jesus or Mohammed or Yawell told them that. They think its wrong because they know it would suck if it happened to them. Thats why these things were enshrined and both religion and legal systems. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Jack Weber Posted April 2, 2011 Report Posted April 2, 2011 The moral code expressed in all of the various bibles and also in our legal system comes from humans, not the other way around. Most of it is intrinsic to human nature... People dont think its wrong to bash in their neighbors head and rape his wife because Jesus or Mohammed or Yawell told them that. They think its wrong because they know it would suck if it happened to them. Thats why these things were enshrined and both religion and legal systems. Moses was given The Law by the Hand of God... Not the other way around... They are the 10 Commandments...NOT the 10 Suggestions because Mankind thought it was a really good idea... And it's Yahweh...Not Yawell... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
dre Posted April 2, 2011 Report Posted April 2, 2011 Moses was given The Law by the Hand of God... Not the other way around... They are the 10 Commandments...NOT the 10 Suggestions because Mankind thought it was a really good idea... And it's Yahweh...Not Yawell... Those 10 commandments are just a reflection of what most people already knew. Nothing more. Religions are human creations... there's been literally hundreds or thousands of them, and they all reflect the cultures that those religions emerged from. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Jack Weber Posted April 2, 2011 Report Posted April 2, 2011 Those 10 commandments are just a reflection of what most people already knew. Nothing more. Religions are human creations... there's been literally hundreds or thousands of them, and they all reflect the cultures that those religions emerged from. Well.... I'll tell you what... You have have faith in Man if you want,or Man's creations...Or have faith in nothing at all... I choose not have faith in Man because Man is failed...He has been a failure since he took a bite of the apple... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
betsy Posted April 2, 2011 Report Posted April 2, 2011 (edited) Jack, Dre, Oleg.....my bad. I shouldn't have brought that moral issue here. It deserves a thread of its own. Will create one when I get around to it. Edited April 2, 2011 by betsy Quote
betsy Posted April 2, 2011 Report Posted April 2, 2011 Going back to Singer, who sounds so coldly detached.....this again compares to the evil of Hitler's scientists/medical researchers who coldly performed experiments on the Jews and other humans they've defined as inhuman or sub-human. Quote
betsy Posted April 2, 2011 Report Posted April 2, 2011 Since the title of this topic is The Nature of Evil, and the arguments that ensued regarding abortion - all stages of pregnancy and now with the new proposal of extending that "right to murder" 28 days after birth - which is being valiantly defended by its advocates, it is only fitting to give this excerpt from Berit Kjos: Today's sophisticated high tech version of the dialectic process has raised the pressure to compromise and yield to temptations. Refined for our times, it was first demonstrated in the Garden of Eden. Look at the dialogue in Genesis 3:1-5 and ponder the familiar process: Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?" [1] And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ [2] Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." [3] So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings. And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, "Where are you?" So he said, "I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself." [4] And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?" Then the man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate." [5] And the Lord God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate." [5] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Notes: 1. This question illustrates the "critical thinking" strategy used to change the "fixed beliefs" and values of children everywhere. It begins by challenging or questioning current beliefs, raising doubts about the validity of truth. 2 Eve is slightly confused (cognitive dissonance) and changes God's command slightly. Already, her position or convictions based on truth is becoming shaky. 3. Satan presents a counterfeit promise -- a half-truth that sounds believable -- to Eve if only she would rebel against God and eat the forbidden fruit. The reward for choosing to actually experience evil (in contrast to accepting God's command to avoid it) is to see both good and evil from Satan's twisted perspective rather than from God's holy perspective. 4. Adam feels shame, but not genuine guilt. He cannot see sin from God's perspective. 5. No longer able to see good and evil from God's perspective, neither Adam nor Eve repent. Instead, they rationalize their sin and blame others. The nature and tactics of Satan http://www.crossroad.to/charts/sin&satan-txt.html Quote
Jack Weber Posted April 2, 2011 Report Posted April 2, 2011 Since the title of this topic is The Nature of Evil, and the arguments that ensued regarding abortion - all stages of pregnancy and now with the new proposal of extending that "right to murder" 28 days after birth - which is being valiantly defended by its advocates, it is only fitting to give this excerpt from Berit Kjos: [/i] The nature and tactics of Satan http://www.crossroad.to/charts/sin&satan-txt.html Interesting... Whenever this subject comes up,I always ask people who are interested in listening(and won't walk off or dismiss it with tons of humanistic indignation)... What is Satan's favourite trick in taking Mankind down with him??? Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
maple_leafs182 Posted April 3, 2011 Report Posted April 3, 2011 Interesting... Whenever this subject comes up,I always ask people who are interested in listening(and won't walk off or dismiss it with tons of humanistic indignation)... What is Satan's favourite trick in taking Mankind down with him??? Make them believe he does not exist. Satan does not exist, there is no evil force behind all the bad things that occur. What people perceive as evil is their own perception which varies from culture to culture and person to person. Headhunters in Africa do not think what they do is evil, in their culture it is not evil. If you want to know why ever five seconds a child dies from starvation or a preventable disease, it is due to the failure of the market system which does not manage and distribute resources efficiently. It has nothing to do with Satan. Quote │ _______ [███STOP███]▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ :::::::--------------Conservatives beleive ▄▅█FUNDING THIS█▅▄▃▂- - - - - --- -- -- -- -------- Liberals lie I██████████████████] ...◥⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙'(='.'=)' ⊙
Oleg Bach Posted April 3, 2011 Report Posted April 3, 2011 Religious morality comes from humans, not the other way around. I was not talking in a religious manner. Just because I use the word GOD does not signify religious morality...it is just to explain the fact that we are mortal...and nature rules us all..and nature is the hand and act of God...religion most certainly is tailored to suit it's practitioners. Again we must relize that nature is by nature evil...human existance is supposed to be a condition that rises above common and brutal nature..our evolution is to become more God like and not be ruled by common lusts such as greed or be moved by fear of perishing. No one quite understood the sin of sensuality...to be controled like a lab rat by stimuli. Quote
Oleg Bach Posted April 3, 2011 Report Posted April 3, 2011 Oh and while I am at it - the all mighty created evil as well as good...after all he is the all mighty....it is a human trait to have a war with one self..to battle against goodness or evil...best let nature take it's course and stand tall hoping you will survive the onslaught of mortality...at least give it a try....If war is to end then our left hand must join in union and friendship with our right hand...Then we are whole. To be torn asunder by evil is a choice...it is like being sliced right down the centre never to be whole again. Positive and negative forces is what the universe is made of..but there are higher laws than those of physics....there are super natural laws and existance. Here on earth we live in a garden...our job is to keep nature alive and at the same time not be destroyed by it or destroy it trying to survive..........This takes a high skill level and deep understanding. It is frustrating to be in the midst of human nature which is always in a sublime state of PANIC. Quote
Jack Weber Posted April 3, 2011 Report Posted April 3, 2011 Make them believe he does not exist. Satan does not exist, there is no evil force behind all the bad things that occur. What people perceive as evil is their own perception which varies from culture to culture and person to person. Headhunters in Africa do not think what they do is evil, in their culture it is not evil. If you want to know why ever five seconds a child dies from starvation or a preventable disease, it is due to the failure of the market system which does not manage and distribute resources efficiently. It has nothing to do with Satan. The market system... The love of money,or the love of the acquisition of wealth,is the root of all evil... I've heared that somewhere before???? Good one,but I don't think that's the biggest one.... I think you're close with trying to convince the masses that he does'nt exist,but not quite... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
maple_leafs182 Posted April 3, 2011 Report Posted April 3, 2011 The market system... The love of money,or the love of the acquisition of wealth,is the root of all evil... I've heared that somewhere before???? Good one,but I don't think that's the biggest one.... I think you're close with trying to convince the masses that he does'nt exist,but not quite... I did not sat it is the root of all evil. There is no root to all that is evil. Blaming something on Satan is a cop out, if we are doing something bad it is our fault. Quote │ _______ [███STOP███]▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ :::::::--------------Conservatives beleive ▄▅█FUNDING THIS█▅▄▃▂- - - - - --- -- -- -- -------- Liberals lie I██████████████████] ...◥⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙'(='.'=)' ⊙
Oleg Bach Posted April 3, 2011 Report Posted April 3, 2011 I did not sat it is the root of all evil. There is no root to all that is evil. Blaming something on Satan is a cop out, if we are doing something bad it is our fault. People like to blame what does not exist nor can defend itself. The Satan idea is kept alive so people can defere their sins to someone else - like a scape goat. To say it is Satans fault holds about as much weight as someone saying God bless...as if God takes instructions from mere mortals. Quote
Oleg Bach Posted April 3, 2011 Report Posted April 3, 2011 Evil is when you consider yourself clever and your ambitious ego driven dreams lead to your own demise...evil is supidity personified...I know - I have been eviling my self to death for years...It's a real bad habit. Quote
cybercoma Posted April 3, 2011 Report Posted April 3, 2011 Evil is when you consider yourself clever and your ambitious ego driven dreams lead to your own demise...evil is supidity personified...I know - I have been eviling my self to death for years...It's a real bad habit. What you're describing is hubris. Quote
Jack Weber Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 I did not sat it is the root of all evil. There is no root to all that is evil. Blaming something on Satan is a cop out, if we are doing something bad it is our fault. So says the humanist... Quote The beatings will continue until morale improves!!!
maple_leafs182 Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 So says the humanist... Why do wars occur, why do people steal, what leads to this sort of behavior? I believe our economic system is at fault. Our current economic model is based on profiting off of scarcity. When you have an economic system thrives on scarcity, expect people to fight over and steal those valuable resources. Quote │ _______ [███STOP███]▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄ :::::::--------------Conservatives beleive ▄▅█FUNDING THIS█▅▄▃▂- - - - - --- -- -- -- -------- Liberals lie I██████████████████] ...◥⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙▲⊙'(='.'=)' ⊙
ToadBrother Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 Why do wars occur, why do people steal, what leads to this sort of behavior? I believe our economic system is at fault. Our current economic model is based on profiting off of scarcity. When you have an economic system thrives on scarcity, expect people to fight over and steal those valuable resources. Wars were happening long before our economic system was invented. Oh, and scarcity is a factor in all economic systems. Quote
WIP Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 And speaking of D'Souza, what a timely and appropriate question to ask on this thread... Can we really be moral without God? Really? The pertinent question should be why do so many people with God act so immorally? Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
WIP Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 Next so-called "difficult" question that will be brought forth... What's the difference between a very late-term fetus and an incapacitated and dependent person (regardless of age)?: And the truth is: not very much! D'Souza's piece was published in a Catholic site...so what! The issue at hand is still the same. Singer asks some questions that many people avoid because they are difficult to deal with. My point is that the Catholic writers like D'Souza don't really have any better solutions to these issues. When Catholic rules, like refusing to allow sick and dying patients to end their lives on their own terms, or refuse abortions for women who are the victims of rape, or could have their lives put at risk, then their wonderful language about valuing life is total crap, because the real life results can be unneeded suffering and death. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
ToadBrother Posted April 4, 2011 Report Posted April 4, 2011 Singer asks some questions that many people avoid because they are difficult to deal with. My point is that the Catholic writers like D'Souza don't really have any better solutions to these issues. When Catholic rules, like refusing to allow sick and dying patients to end their lives on their own terms, or refuse abortions for women who are the victims of rape, or could have their lives put at risk, then their wonderful language about valuing life is total crap, because the real life results can be unneeded suffering and death. As Isaac Asimov famously said, "Never let your sense of morality prevent you from doing what's right." The problem with rigid ideologies is that they create these sorts of paradoxes. A world view lacking all pragmatism ends up in some sort of a tyranny. Quote
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