Creation

[M.Dancer]

I'm saying, you should abandon the theory of evolution and replace it with the theory of ID.

That is, if you want to be scientific about it, and not faith-based.

Logic bomb

[M.Dancer]

Can't add anything to expand on that? Of course, no!

Something tells me Bambino is already sold on creation...

....but he's so hang-up on the word, Biblical.

For some reason....he just can't simply get beyond that word, Biblical!

So you would be willing to accept the classical greek-roman version of creation?

Hello Cronus?

In the beginning there was an empty darkness. The only thing in this void was Nyx, a bird with black wings. With the wind she laid a golden egg and for ages she sat upon this egg. Finally life began to stir in the egg and out of it rose Eros, the god of love. One half of the shell rose into the air and became the sky and the other became the Earth. Eros named the sky Uranus and the Earth he named Gaia. Then Eros made them fall in love.

Uranus and Gaia had many children together and eventually they had grandchildren. Some of their children become afraid of the power of their children. Kronus, in an effort to protect himself, swallowed his children when they were still infants. However, his wife Rhea hid their youngest child. She gave him a rock wrapped in swaddling clothes, which he swallowed, thinking it was his son.

Once the child, Zeus, had reached manhood his mother instructed him on how to trick his father to give up his brothers and sisters. Once this was accomplished the children fought a mighty war against their father. After much fighting the younger generation won. With Zeus as their leader, they began to furnish Gaia with life and Uranus with stars.

Soon the Earth lacked only two things: man and animals. Zeus summoned his sons Prometheus (fore-thought) and Epimetheus (after-thought). He told them to go to Earth and create men and animals and give them each a gift.

Prometheus set to work forming men in the image of the gods and Epimetheus worked on the animals. As Epimetheus worked he gave each animal he created one of the gifts. After Epimetheus had completed his work Prometheus finally finished making men. However when he went to see what gift to give man Epimetheus shamefacedly informed him that he had foolishly used all the gifts.

Distressed, Prometheus decided he had to give man fire, even though gods were the only ones meant to have access to it. As the sun god rode out into the world the next morning Prometheus took some of the fire and brought it back to man. He taught his creation how to take care of it and then left them.

When Zeus discovered Prometheus' deed he became furious. He ordered his son to be chained to a mountain and for a vulture to peck out his liver every day till eternity. Then he began to devise a punishment for mankind. Another of his sons created a woman of great beauty, Pandora. Each of the gods gave her a gift. Zeus' present was curiosity and a box which he ordered her never to open. Then he presented her to Epimetheus as a wife.

[Oleg Bach]

No one knows - only God knows...and he is not talking.

[Saipan]

Pretty easily I assume. If you believe man was created god in his present image (which is that of god), and then he fassioned a women out of a few of that mans ribs, and then made them devious and sinful by making a talking snake trick the women into eating poisenous fruit from a forbidden tree, then there REALLY NOTHING that you cant manuever around.

Belongs to Bible thread - not here.

[Oleg Bach]

Belongs to Bible thread - not here.

Does not belong anywhere. It`s just dumb. Idiots go on about God and no God...and will never come to any conclution of relevance - belief should be private.

[betsy]

So you would be willing to accept the classical greek-roman version of creation?

Hello Cronus?

Hello MDancer? We're not talking about me. I know where I stand. I AM FAITH-BASED!

We're talking about you guys who claim to be the "rational" ones....but proving to be actually, the terribly confused ones!

Like you, going on about the god Basmati and his side-kicks Vishnu and whatchamacallit...and we just found out why! Looking back on your cycles....all this time you're actually a creationist! And you didn't even know it!

And now you're invoking Cronus?

Golly, you're going through all them?

Edited August 12, 2011 by betsy

[g_bambino]

:angry: For some reason....he just can't simply get beyond that word, Biblical! :angry:

I went beyond it a long time ago; about the same time I also stopped believing Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy were real.

[g_bambino]

Skip the word 'Biblical' and start again.

Why?

[g_bambino]

I'm saying, you should abandon the theory of evolution and replace it with the theory of ID.

That is, if you want to be scientific about it, and not faith-based.

Now that is hillarious.

[betsy]

Hey MDancer, let's do a recap.

A better question is not who, which is loaded and biased and presupposes an answer, but...

what is the creator?

I think it might be

Physics!

Betsy:

Stop squirming around. Now we know that you think you know but actually you didn't know that all this time.....you believe in Creation.

There is no other answer.

And now we all know that your petname for your creator is....Physics.

Betsy:

If you believe that physics is the creator, then you obviously believe that physics existed before it existed!

Yes, I am quite platonic in that sense. The concept exists independant of observation.

Creation (and destruction) have had no beginning, no end...an infinite cycle of birth and death of universes..

Science has proven Vishnu and Shiva!

No. Iteration has a goal at the end.....there is no goal in this cycle, it simply exists

You're confusing infinity with eternity!

Are they Hindu gods? I googled and here's what I found....

Hindus recognise three principal gods:

Brahma, who creates the universe

Vishnu, who preserves the universe

Shiva, who destroys the universe.

Brahma is the Creator. However, Brahma is not worshipped in the same way as other gods because it is believed that his work - that of creation - has been done.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/beliefs/intro_1.shtml

Don't know about them really, but since they're your gods, obviously you do!

I told you. All this time you believe in creation!

And no wonder you're into all that "cycle"...

1.9 billion years: Hindu scriptures suggest a cyclical universe in which a "big bang" is eventually followed by a "big crunch" some 4.32 billion years later. In this system, we are 1.97 billion years from our universe's big bang and have some 2.35 billion years to go before our Kalpa (eternal day) ends in a big crunch. 2

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_date1.htm

Btw, what's holding this whole show together - this cyclic treadmill?

Four elephants? One on each corner of the universe?

So, which one do you lovingly refer to as "Physics?"

Vishnu or Shiva?

Now, it'll be interesting to see how you'd fit Cronus into this.

Edited August 12, 2011 by betsy

[Saipan]

Why?

To see if you can cut it.

Or do you think evolution is British?

[M.Dancer]

Now, it'll be interesting to see how you'd fit Cronus into this.

See that's the thing Betsy, if ID is valid, it wouldn't presume that the creator is jehovah....why can't ID allow other another god, or gods?

Now don't get me wrong, I reject ID as unscientific and merely creationism in disguise.

I reject creationism as superstitious nonsense that should be relegated to the camp fire along with ghost stories and meetings of other like minded spirit believers

[Oleg Bach]

See that's the thing Betsy, if ID is valid, it wouldn't presume that the creator is jehovah....why can't ID allow other another god, or gods?

Now don't get me wrong, I reject ID as unscientific and merely creationism in disguise.

I reject creationism as superstitious nonsense that should be relegated to the camp fire along with ghost stories and meetings of other like minded spirit believers

Look at the Huble telescope shots...that sure looks like a lot of weird and superstitious stuff out there. If you told a primative sitting at a camp fire what was out there - they would have burned you at the stake.... That huge thing that is visable eternity is beyond superstitious - it is super superstitious....everything including science is quite super...and super natural...what's the big deal.....The whole thing is baffling and the sophisticated and the primative will run neck and neck for eternity trying to win this race of reason - there is no answer - that is why it is called the mystery of God...No one will ever know fully - everything and every secret.

[betsy]

See that's the thing Betsy, if ID is valid, it wouldn't presume that the creator is jehovah....why can't ID allow other another god, or gods?

Why do you have to presume it's Jehovah. You can presume any creator you want. Does Intelligent Design says it has to be a god?

ID scientists say they'll follow where the evidence leads them.

And that could mean....anywhere.

See that? E V I D E N C E.

They want evidence. Not some wishful thinking or any convoluted fairy-tale about un ugly frog who's been kissed by time and had magically transformed to become you.

Actually it is the Neo-darwinists' atheistic faith that's getting the better of you.

Aside from the religious faith behind some ID scientists, why does the Christian God fit the role of the Intelligent Designer? You ask, why not other gods?

Perhaps it has something to do with the BIBLE?

One aspect differentiating the Bible from other religious, historical or inspirational works is this: throughout the Bible, future events are predicted with verifiable accuracy.

The writings from the Far East, the teachings of Confucius, Buddhism and Hinduism do not even make a claim to be God’s word. They present to their followers a path to a simpler, more satisfactory life. The Muslim Koran makes no claims to being words from Allah. Rather it is the writing of Mohammed, a religious leader, his record of history as well as his desire for the future. But has any prophecy in the Koran come to pass?

Only the Christian Bible claims to be God’s very word to man and only the Bible contains the verifiable track record of prophetic fulfillment as evidence of its claims. Biblical prophecies are batting 1000. No other religious group or religious writings can make the same claim. (Bible references related to this article: Jeremiah 25.11, Daniel 9.1-5, John 1.1-5)

http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/churchandministry/evangelism/burns_godswords.aspx

Now don't get me wrong, I reject ID as unscientific

Look who's talking!

I've watched a docu called History of Earth, and I've seen where the "hocus-pocus" happened.

One minute the narrator shifted from the ocean where there's one single lifeform in it, and documented the happenings on land. The volcanoes were acting up and shifting everything.

Then the narrator said, "Now let's go back to the ocean and see what's happening."

And you see under the ocean teeming with various forms of life....including what looked like an eel. The narrator said, "Now we see that from that one single life form evolved different life forms."

EHHH???

How do you know they all evolved from that one single life form? No one was there to observe it! Talk about pulling a fast one.

Of course, those who'd swallowed hook, line, and sinker of this propaganda didn't even notice the fast sleight of hand.

and merely creationism in disguise.

Where is the disguise in the fact that our origin still baffles science to this day, as we speak?

You mean you don't like the word, "Designed," because it implies, "created"....which you automatically associate with Creation and GENESIS!

Just like Bambino and the doo-wap choir....you're bogged down by religion! It is you who can't get past religion! Something seems to happen to your reason as soon as you get a whiff of that word, creation. What creation is to you is like garlic to Dracula.

I reject creationism as superstitious nonsense that should be relegated to the camp fire along with ghost stories and meetings of other like minded spirit believers

Along with fairy tale believers like the Frog Prince?

Golly, I wonder if there is any subliminal suggestion secretly imbedded behind the word "creation" that makes you guys throw rational thinking to the wind.

Edited August 12, 2011 by betsy

[g_bambino]

To see if you can cut it.

Or do you think evolution is British?

Would you care to try and rephrase your request so that it makes at least a modicum of sense?

[g_bambino]

Why do you have to presume it's Jehovah. You can presume any creator you want...

Exactly. The belief that Jehovah is the creator of the universe is a preposterously flimsy presumption based upon the equally unsound belief that the Bible is the word of the (apparently self-contradictory and fickle) Christian god.

[+]

Edited August 12, 2011 by g_bambino

[CANADIEN]

Why do you have to presume it's Jehovah. You can presume any creator you want. Does Intelligent Design says it has to be a god?

ID scientists say they'll follow where the evidence leads them.

And that could mean....anywhere.

See that? E V I D E N C E.

All that while denying the evidence of the scientifically proved fact of evolution.

Let,s not be confused here. IE propagandist may say all they want that they only want to go where evidence will lead them, the fact is that they have already decided where this will lead them, some sort of scientific proof of the existence of God.. Unfortunately for them, including you, the proof of the existence of God is not to be found through science.

Actually it is the Neo-darwinists' atheistic faith that's getting the better of you.

Anyone who put atheistic and faith in the same sentence has no understanding of what atheism is and even less understanding of what faith is.

The Muslim Koran makes no claims to being words from Allah. Rather it is the writing ing of Mohammed, a religious leader, his record of history as well as his desire for the future.

On the contrary, Muslims consider the Koran to be the Word of God, dictated word by word to Mohammed.

^

I've watched a docu called History of Earth, and I've seen where the "hocus-pocus" happened.

One minute the narrator shifted from the ocean where there's one single lifeform in it, and documented the happenings on land. The volcanoes were acting up and shifting everything.

Then the narrator said, "Now let's go back to the ocean and see what's happening."

And you see under the ocean teeming with various forms of life....including what looked like an eel. The narrator said, "Now we see that from that one single life form evolved different life forms."

EHHH???

And you call that "hocus pocus"? :lol:

How do you know they all evolved from that one single life form? No one was there to observe it! Talk about pulling a fast one.

Noone was there to witness God creating the Universe either. Knowledge that

He did it is called faith.

As for how I know that life has evolved from one original life form... It's called understanding the scientific process. evolution is a scientifically sound theory, based on scientific discovery. Most Christian understand this, and see no contrqadiction between this science-based knowledge and their faith-based knowledge of God.

Where is the disguise in the fact that our origin still baffles science to this day, as we speak?

Correction. Scientists haven't found a scientific response (yet?). What scientists have a good handle on, however, is what has happened since. Too bad for you that you are unable to see the difference.

Golly, I wonder if there is any subliminal suggestion secretly imbedded behind the word "creation" that makes you guys throw rational thinking to the wind.

You mean, like throwing logical thinking to the wind and refusing to acknowledge the evolution SCIENTIFIC theory?

Edited August 12, 2011 by CANADIEN

[Oleg Bach]

Any person that actually believes God has a name is a vain fool...There is no Yahwee - or Jehova - or Alah...God does not have a name - It is not human..but we think in human terms and that will aways be the blight of this debate regarding creation. Creation and evolution are one! It is because we live within the constructs of time..which is a human fraility when it comes to figuring things out - a second is a trillion years and a trillion years is a second - When God said let there be light - it may have taken a millionth of a second or ten trillion years...so this is where the problem lies as far as agreement on creation and evolution..as long as we are bound by time this argument will go on for eternity.

[Oleg Bach]

But of course it is sport and you get to use real big font to show God is real big and bigger than you and that God always wins the battle - rule number one- God does not bother with competion - rule number two - when it comes to God there is no competition..rule number three - have fun while you are on earth - and wonder - it gives you something to do while you are visiting this place.

[betsy]

All that while denying the evidence of the scientifically proved fact of evolution.

Either you've not been following the whole discussion at all....or you're in denial!

Let,s not be confused here.

I'm not. You are.

IE propagandist may say all they want that they only want to go where evidence will lead them, the fact is that they have already decided where this will lead them,

Exactly. That's what my articles - and the evidences, or rather non-evidences - have been saying about the deadwood, evolution.

some sort of scientific proof of the existence of God.. Unfortunately for them, including you, the proof of the existence of God is not to be found through science.

Who's talking about the existence of God?

You're off-track. You don't get it.

Anyone who put atheistic and faith in the same sentence has no understanding of what atheism is and even less understanding of what faith is.

Hello? You're living in the past. Get to the current times.

That statement you've spouted about faith and atheism is pure baloney. You cannot hide behind it....nor can you use it as an excuse! You are as fundamentalist as any religion. New Atheism is a a faith....a belief of no god.

If it talks like a duck....and waddles like duck....and looks like a duck.....it is a duck!

Brush up from the other topics, Church of the Non-Believers, Video Debates and Interviews etc.., You're just gurgling what's already been spat.

And you call that "hocus pocus"?

yeah.

Sounds much better than calling it a scam, don't you think?

Noone was there to witness God creating the Universe either.

And?

Correction. Scientists haven't found a scientific response (yet?).

Response??? Ho-ho-ho

Puhleez....spell it out bluntly.

Don't be coy or cutesy with words. Response my foot.

Correction.

You mean, evidence.

Scientists haven't found a scientific evidence (yet?)

And they won't! Your best argument had just been nuked, to boot.

You mean, like throwing logical thinking to the wind and refusing to acknowledge the evolution SCIENTIFIC theory?

For you, it will have to be the logical thinking of...reading what's actually being discussed, along with all the arguments and rebuttals....so you wouldn't be rehashing and sounding so repetitively stale.

And throwing rational thinking to the wind by refusing to understand exactly what Intelligent Designers are actually saying! Preferring a dead wood to a logical alternative.

A hippo dressed in a tutu and ballerina shoes is still a hippo.

Get back to me when you've got some new things to say!

Edited August 13, 2011 by betsy

[CANADIEN]

Either you've not been following the whole discussion at all....or you're in denial!

Neither, but nice try.

I'm not. You are.

On the contrary. I understand perfectly that IE is nothing more than pseudo-science.

Exactly. That's what my articles - and the evidences, or rather non-evidences - have been saying about the deadwood, evolution.

Evolution is scientific fact. You do not and will not get it.

Who's talking about the existence of God?

You're off-track. You don't get it.

Indeed, I do not get your non-sense.

Hello? You're living in the past. Get to the current times.

You mean like the time when most Christian actually accept the FACTS that form the basis of the teory of evoluation while maintening their faith in (kowledge of) the existence of God. Get tho 19th century, will you? That alone would constitute improvement.

That statement you've spouted about faith and atheism is pure baloney. You cannot hide behind it....nor can you use it as an excuse!

I do not need to hide behind it. Not believing in something or someone's existence is not a form of faith. Period.

You are as fundamentalist as any religion.

So now, I am a fondamentalist Catholic?

Brush up from the other topics, Church of the Non-Believers, Video Debates and Interviews etc.., You're just gurgling what's already been spat.

You mean going through pages and pages of you gurgling the same non-sense? Read enough of it already, thank you very much.

yeah.

Sounds much better than calling it a scam, don't you think?

Well, considering it's neither, unlike ID...

For you, it will have to be the logical thinking of...reading what's actually being discussed, along with all the arguments and rebuttals....so you wouldn't be rehashing and sounding so repetitively stale.

Careful with what you wish. Because the more postings by you, and rebuttals of them, one reads, the more stale and repetitive your non-sense becomes. News to you. 10000 more postings with the same non-sense will not make it sound better.

A hippo dressed in a tutu and ballerina shoes is still a hippo.

And ID masquerading itself as science is still a fraud.

Get back to me when you've got some new things to say!

For once, you write something that makes sense. Once one points out that your defence of the fraud called IE, your misunderstanding of what faith and atheism are, and your rejection of scientific knowledge (evolution) make non sense whatsoever, nothing more needs to be added.

Edited August 13, 2011 by CANADIEN

[g_bambino]

You mean like the time when most Christian actually accept the FACTS that form the basis of the teory of evoluation while maintening their faith in (kowledge of) the existence of God.

The theory of evolution never had anything to do with the existence or non-existence of a god, or even gods; it's entirely possible to believe in both evolution and a divine, extra-universal being. betsy hates evolution only because what it does do is proves Genesis to be untrue. As she believes the Bible is the word of God, she can only accept science - whether actual or pseudo - that supports the Bible's contents, not that which discredits it. Hence, she turns evolution into what it isn't and supports Intelligent Design, since that theory began with the conclusion that a higher being created all existence, exactly as Genesis claims. No matter that there's 10,000 fold more evidence to support the theory of evolution as there is to back up Intelligent Design; what's important to betsy is protecting her faith, not challenging it.

[CANADIEN]

The theory of evolution never had anything to do with the existence or non-existence of a god, or even gods; it's entirely possible to believe in both evolution and a divine, extra-universal being. betsy hates evolution only because what it does do is proves Genesis to be untrue. As she believes the Bible is the word of God, she can only accept science - whether actual or pseudo - that supports the Bible's contents, not that which discredits it. Hence, she turns evolution into what it isn't and supports Intelligent Design, since that theory began with the conclusion that a higher being created all existence, exactly as Genesis claims. No matter that there's 10,000 fold more evidence to support the theory of evolution as there is to back up Intelligent Design; what's important to betsy is protecting her faith, not challenging it.

I for one do not think that evolution does NOT prove Genesis to be untrue. But then, my faith tells me that the truth contained in Genesis is not of the scientific kind. Most Christians I know would say the same.

Edited August 13, 2011 by CANADIEN

[g_bambino]

I for one do not think that evolution does NOT prove Genesis to be untrue.

I assume you mean to say you don't think evolution proves Genesis to be untrue. If that's the case, I wonder how that can be; Genesis claims God made all the animals, including humans, in their modern form, at around the same time as he created the rest of the universe, whereas evolution tells us that all life descends from primordial microbes and humans came into existence long, long after the universe came to be, having branched out of the ape line.

[c/e]

Edited August 13, 2011 by g_bambino

[CANADIEN]

I assume you mean to say you don't think evolution proves Genesis to be untrue. If that's the case, I wonder how that can be; Genesis claims God made all the animals, including humans, in their modern form, at around the same time as he created the rest of the universe, whereas evolution tells us that all life descends from primordial microbes and humans came into existence long, long past after the universe came to be, having branched off of the ape line.

[c/e]

The truth one finds, though faith, in Genesis, is not that lving beings appreared in their current state virtually at the moment of creation. The story as written is an allegory, using creation stories that existed at the time Genesis was written. The real message is that the universe is God's creation. One of course is free not to believe there is a God, but should still be wary of taking the text literary.