Scotty Posted January 26, 2011 Report Posted January 26, 2011 Let me start by suggesting something obvious: when your car won't start, you dont' check the tire pressure. Why not? Well, because you know it's not going to be the tires. It's not going to be the muffler either. There are only a few things it could be so you're safe to ignore all the other parts in the car. Yet if we checked our our cars the way we conduct security screening we'd start at one end and work our way carefully forward, checking every single piece of equipment equally, giving no particular preference to anything until we found the one which was causing the trouble. Why is it alway sthe poor battery that gets gingled out?! Well, because it usually IS the battery. It's never the axles. We waste masses and masses of time screening paunchy, middle aged Canadians even though paunchy middle aged Canadians are NEVER the problem. No middle aged or older Canadian has ever hijacked or blown up an airplane. Not EVER. Let me be daring and suggest no middle aged or older White person has EVER blown up an airplene or hijacked one. What I'm getting at is we all know where the problems are likely to occure here, and logically we ought to be focussing on those areas. Efficiency and common sense say we could save lots of time and money and more properly secure aircraft from attacks if we focussed most attention on young men from the middle east and southeast Asia. That doesn't mean we give everyone a free ride. For as the shoe bomber has shown, others can fall influence to radical religious zealots. But we basically know what the people who are going to attack aircraft look like. So why is it considered immoral and unethical to focus our attention there? Spot checks mean that a terrorist, who almost certainly belongs to our suspect group, has a far smaller likelihood of being singled out. So we damage our own security interests by not profiling. There was a quote in a column today re Israeli screeners, who think the bags someone is carrying are by far less interesting than the people themselves. They focus on the individual, on who he is, why he is travelling, yet we don't dare do that. Would we ask someone what religion they are? Where they worshipped? Would we ask other personal questions to get a picture of what sort of person is getting on the flight? Not a chance. We're very timid in our screening, but in an odd way which says we should treat everyone as a suspected terorist, even though we know they aren't. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Shwa Posted January 26, 2011 Report Posted January 26, 2011 Let me start by suggesting something obvious: when your car won't start, you dont' check the tire pressure. Why not? Well, because you know it's not going to be the tires. It's not going to be the muffler either. There are only a few things it could be so you're safe to ignore all the other parts in the car. Yet if we checked our our cars the way we conduct security screening we'd start at one end and work our way carefully forward, checking every single piece of equipment equally, giving no particular preference to anything until we found the one which was causing the trouble. Why is it alway sthe poor battery that gets gingled out?! Well, because it usually IS the battery. It's never the axles. We waste masses and masses of time screening paunchy, middle aged Canadians even though paunchy middle aged Canadians are NEVER the problem. No middle aged or older Canadian has ever hijacked or blown up an airplane. Not EVER. Let me be daring and suggest no middle aged or older White person has EVER blown up an airplene or hijacked one. What I'm getting at is we all know where the problems are likely to occure here, and logically we ought to be focussing on those areas. Efficiency and common sense say we could save lots of time and money and more properly secure aircraft from attacks if we focussed most attention on young men from the middle east and southeast Asia. That doesn't mean we give everyone a free ride. For as the shoe bomber has shown, others can fall influence to radical religious zealots. But we basically know what the people who are going to attack aircraft look like. So why is it considered immoral and unethical to focus our attention there? Spot checks mean that a terrorist, who almost certainly belongs to our suspect group, has a far smaller likelihood of being singled out. So we damage our own security interests by not profiling. There was a quote in a column today re Israeli screeners, who think the bags someone is carrying are by far less interesting than the people themselves. They focus on the individual, on who he is, why he is travelling, yet we don't dare do that. Would we ask someone what religion they are? Where they worshipped? Would we ask other personal questions to get a picture of what sort of person is getting on the flight? Not a chance. We're very timid in our screening, but in an odd way which says we should treat everyone as a suspected terorist, even though we know they aren't. How about José Marc Flores Pereira? Middle aged, 44, Bolivian Christian preacher? Now he is not the whitest dude, but he could claim his tan was rather Spanish. And who are those middle aged or older white guys anyways? Really, who are they? And let's not forget, even though they might look like everyday regular middle aged Canadians, they might be Chechens. Quote
WIP Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 Let me start by suggesting something obvious: So, your solution is let's profile everyone who looks like an Arab? How about get the hell out of Afghanistan, and stop giving unqualified support to the Netanyahu Government in Israel....that would do more to reduce the odds of your plane getting blown up, than hassling everyone who looks like an Arab! Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
Guest TrueMetis Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 (edited) You know what would be really effective and actually make sense? Hiring people with adequate training. The only things that have ever had a real effect on plane security are adequate training, bomb dogs, and locks on the cockpit door. Racial profiling, the scanners, and pretty much all of the other methods that are being or have been tried don't do shite. ETA and Christians aren't exactly without their extremists. He's never hijacked a plane but if he isn't on some kind of watch list he should be. Edited January 27, 2011 by TrueMetis Quote
charter.rights Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 How about José Marc Flores Pereira? Middle aged, 44, Bolivian Christian preacher? Now he is not the whitest dude, but he could claim his tan was rather Spanish. And who are those middle aged or older white guys anyways? Really, who are they? And let's not forget, even though they might look like everyday regular middle aged Canadians, they might be Chechens. And lets not forget Timothy McVeigh. That clean-cut conservative home town boy would get by any security if looks were the only criteria. He possessed the know-how and that access to materials to take down a building the size of the World Trade Centre. And no law enforcement agency even had him on their radar. We could go on...Mark Lepine, Jim Jones and many more all had the thoughts and destructive force of any terrorist-looking traveler patted down in the airport. Quote “Safeguarding the rights of others is the most noble and beautiful end of a human being.” Kahlil Gibran “Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” Albert Einstein
Michael Hardner Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 Terrorists exploit holes in the system. On 9/11 the common wisdom was that hijackers would be allowed to land the plane, where they would be negotiated with. Shoot downs were not part of the equation, and now they are. Why would we create a hole in the system when that is what they're looking for ? Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Shwa Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 And lets not forget Timothy McVeigh. That clean-cut conservative home town boy would get by any security if looks were the only criteria. He possessed the know-how and that access to materials to take down a building the size of the World Trade Centre. And no law enforcement agency even had him on their radar. We could go on...Mark Lepine, Jim Jones and many more all had the thoughts and destructive force of any terrorist-looking traveler patted down in the airport. Sure, we could include those folks, the but OP is about airplanes. I am sure McVeigh or Lepine drove... and Jim Jones flew, but he was more about the purple koolaid on the ground... Quote
Oleg Bach Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 Saw a young kid from Toronto. He was being interviewed on the subject of young Muslims..from Toronto bein recruited by radicals...at the end of the interview he made a threat...either employ us or we will radicalize and cause havoc..your choice - to para phrase. The core of terrorism is money - Just like that Palistinian issue..it's about cash..what this Muslim kid was actually doing was shaking down western society for money (employment) as he put it...either give him money or they will blow you up...It's that simple _ Islamics are not spiritualists - they like all others are of the material world. Quote
WIP Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 Sure, we could include those folks, the but OP is about airplanes. I am sure McVeigh or Lepine drove... and Jim Jones flew, but he was more about the purple koolaid on the ground... Up front, I have to say that there are probably more grey-haired Christian male terrorists than any other type in the World. The reason why our demographic is not usually called terrorists, is because wealthy westerners who engage in, or support policies of economic colonization in the Third World are not our terrorist problem....but they are the "terrorist" problem for many of the world's inhabitants who have had governments imposed on them, while having their land bought up by foreign interests. In Russia recently, they had a suicide bombing in an airport that killed dozens of people; and the Putin/Medvedev Government is doing the same talk about terrorism and security that goes on here. Fact is terrorism is asymmetrical warfare tactic. If a powerful foreign despot sets up lackey dictator governments for the purpose of stealing oil and other natural resources, revolution and civil war is soon to follow. If that avenue is closed, as the Russians have done in Chechnya and other territories in the Caucasus Mountains, by invading and brutally suppressing resistance to occupation, then it shouldn't come as such a surprise that revenge-seeking nihilists can be recruited to take the war inside the enemy camp to bring the war to their homes. Even without these factors, there may always be the risk of the odd terrorist attack; but if a society is deliberately sowing the seeds of resentment in foreign lands, then the threat of terrorism is part of doing business. Quote Anybody who believers exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist. -- Kenneth Boulding, 1973
Scotty Posted January 27, 2011 Author Report Posted January 27, 2011 So, your solution is let's profile everyone who looks like an Arab? I don't have a specific "solution". However, I think it's pointless to be groping old white grannies when we know that armed terrorists are 99/100 going to come from certain segments of the community. We shoujld focus on those segments. How about get the hell out of Afghanistan, and stop giving unqualified support to the Netanyahu Government in Israel....that would do more to reduce the odds of your plane getting blown up, than hassling everyone who looks like an Arab! Are you saying that all terrorists are Muslims? I don't think that these types of terrorists necessarily care whether we are in Afghanistan or not, and don't know or care whether we support Israel. Those who blew up Air India had no interest whatsoever in Canada's international politics. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted January 27, 2011 Author Report Posted January 27, 2011 Terrorists exploit holes in the system. On 9/11 the common wisdom was that hijackers would be allowed to land the plane, where they would be negotiated with. Shoot downs were not part of the equation, and now they are. Why would we create a hole in the system when that is what they're looking for ? You think the system makes us safer by strip-searching eighty year old grannies rather than focussing on young men from cultures/groups which are known to produce, harbour and support terrorists? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
The_Squid Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 Do you have a link about this grey-haired granny, or is this a hypothetical granny that might get searched one day? Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 Do you have a link about this grey-haired granny, or is this a hypothetical granny that might get searched one day? http://images.smh.com.au/2010/11/06/2029341/th_492675886-192x128.jpg Quote
Sir Bandelot Posted January 27, 2011 Report Posted January 27, 2011 Sure, no white people would become terrorists and blow up planes, or anything else. There never was a Kazynski. And christians are all wonderful people that we can feel safe to be around at all times. There never was a BTK Killer. Quote
Scotty Posted January 28, 2011 Author Report Posted January 28, 2011 Do you have a link about this grey-haired granny, or is this a hypothetical granny that might get searched one day? Grandmother forced to remove prosthetic breast Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted January 28, 2011 Author Report Posted January 28, 2011 Sure, no white people would become terrorists and blow up planes, or anything else. There never was a Kazynski. And christians are all wonderful people that we can feel safe to be around at all times. There never was a BTK Killer. I never made any such claim. What I claimed was that that middle aged white westerners don't hijack or blow up airplanes. This is self-evident and no one has actually denied it so much as throwing up irrelevancies. Further, I'm not suggesting that airport security should simply wave through anyone with white skin and gray hair. I think security should work on the Israeli principal of focusing on the passenger instead of the baggage, talk to people, and find out more about them. In that way they can quickly eliminate most as possible terrorists. Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Scotty Posted January 28, 2011 Author Report Posted January 28, 2011 This is an example of what you do when you focus on things instead of people, and when you hire low end employees and order them to adhere strictly to rules. Toy soldier banned from aircraft because of 4 inch plastic "gun". Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
Sir Bandelot Posted January 28, 2011 Report Posted January 28, 2011 This is an example of what you do when you focus on things instead of people, and when you hire low end employees and order them to adhere strictly to rules. Toy soldier banned from aircraft because of 4 inch plastic "gun". Your link does not work. There is an extra "http" in front of it. I fixed it in the above quote. This just shows how utterly ridiculous the situation is that we have gotten into. Although, I do not subscribe to you notion that profiling is the better way. I call the empire "the animal". The animal has built up its strength and dominance over individuals, and uses punitive measures against anyone who challenges the established notion of "right", or, "lawful". Democracy has failed in this regard because the voice of the people, and the better interests of the people is no longer served. There is no "animal" outside of ourselves, but rather like a collective consciousness that the herd instinct dogmatically adheres to. People are born and raised to obey authority. Keeping people dumb helps to ensure they follow the rules without question, without thought. From this view it is better if people do not have creative ideas of their own, or read or learn about information that challenges the established mindset. Yesterdays artist, poet, thinker, social critic will be tomorrows terrorist. Because the animal fears; the animal is the reptilian part of our brain. Another fine example of strict adherence to rules, lack of human compassion. The cold, incorporate view of social justice. The state as supreme mono-archy. Mother sent to jail Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 28, 2011 Report Posted January 28, 2011 You think the system makes us safer by strip-searching eighty year old grannies rather than focussing on young men from cultures/groups which are known to produce, harbour and support terrorists? Read my post and see why. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
The_Squid Posted January 28, 2011 Report Posted January 28, 2011 Grandmother forced to remove prosthetic breast That's just some really stupid airport security people. Have you seen them? They are not even real security.... just some chumps hired for $10/hr with minimal training. I think that's the issue... their bosses tell them "no gels or liquids"... because that's what their bosses were told by their management.... who were told by Stockwell Day that this would solve our security problems.... and being good cheap workers, they took that policy literally and with no exceptions.... cuz they weren't told about any exceptions. And granny's gel-breast had to go. Quote
dre Posted January 29, 2011 Report Posted January 29, 2011 I dont really see any point in having this argument. Our airways are EXTREMELY safe even when you include 911, Air India, Lockerby, etc. Whats dangerous is our morbid and misguided obsession with security. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Shwa Posted January 29, 2011 Report Posted January 29, 2011 I dont really see any point in having this argument. Our airways are EXTREMELY safe even when you include 911, Air India, Lockerby, etc. Whats dangerous is our morbid and misguided obsession with security. Indeed. So I was wondering where to post this link - could go in Canada/US relations I suppose, but it more or less relates to the OP from another angle. Canadian woman denied entry to U.S. because of suicide attempt This grey haired and presumably Christian woman didn't have her person searched, but she was initially denied entry into the US because of a mental health issue that was responded to by the police. She eventually got in, it cost her a little more, but mental health issues are a security concern apparently. Quote
wyly Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 That's just some really stupid airport security people. Have you seen them? They are not even real security.... just some chumps hired for $10/hr with minimal training. I think that's the issue... their bosses tell them "no gels or liquids"... because that's what their bosses were told by their management.... who were told by Stockwell Day that this would solve our security problems.... and being good cheap workers, they took that policy literally and with no exceptions.... cuz they weren't told about any exceptions. And granny's gel-breast had to go. pay is $16-18 to start, not $10...they don't make the rules neither do their bosses, the government does, likely transport canada...the security people are not allowed to make exceptions the job is highly structured, they are monitored every second of their shift by supervisors on site and on camera, any deviation from procedure would qualify them for an infraction for which there needs to be an incident report...too many infractions and they're sent for retraining or fired...and the whole truth is Granny did lie Grannie didn't file a complaint it was her daughter who wasn't even there...the security company finds it easier to not battle grannies in a public forum and let the issue pass... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted February 1, 2011 Report Posted February 1, 2011 then there were those two grannies a few years back who were caught smuggling drugs... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
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