Gazan Youth Manifesto

[Bonam]

More "extremism" from the "fanatics."

"Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel. Fuck Fatah. Fuck UN. Fuck UNWRA. Fuck USA! We, the youth in Gaza, are so fed up with Israel, Hamas, the occupation, the violations of human rights and the indifference of the international community!

"We want to scream and break this wall of silence, injustice and indifference like the Israeli F16s breaking the wall of sound; scream with all the power in our souls in order to release this immense frustration that consumes us because of this fucking situation we live in...

"We are sick of being caught in this political struggle; sick of coal-dark nights with airplanes circling above our homes; sick of innocent farmers getting shot in the buffer zone because they are taking care of their lands; sick of bearded guys walking around with their guns abusing their power, beating up or incarcerating young people demonstrating for what they believe in; sick of the wall of shame that separates us from the rest of our country and keeps us imprisoned in a stamp-sized piece of land; sick of being portrayed as terrorists, home-made fanatics with explosives in our pockets and evil in our eyes; sick of the indifference we meet from the international community, the so-called experts in expressing concerns and drafting resolutions but cowards in enforcing anything they agree on; we are sick and tired of living a shitty life, being kept in jail by Israel, beaten up by Hamas and completely ignored by the rest of the world.

"There is a revolution growing inside of us, an immense dissatisfaction and frustration that will destroy us unless we find a way of canalising this energy into something that can challenge the status quo and give us some kind of hope.

"We barely survived the Operation Cast Lead, where Israel very effectively bombed the shit out of us, destroying thousands of homes and even more lives and dreams. During the war we got the unmistakable feeling that Israel wanted to erase us from the face of the Earth. During the last years, Hamas has been doing all they can to control our thoughts, behaviour and aspirations. Here in Gaza we are scared of being incarcerated, interrogated, hit, tortured, bombed, killed. We cannot move as we want, say what we want, do what we want.

"ENOUGH! Enough pain, enough tears, enough suffering, enough control, limitations, unjust justifications, terror, torture, excuses, bombings, sleepless nights, dead civilians, black memories, bleak future, heart-aching present, disturbed politics, fanatic politicians, religious bullshit, enough incarceration! WE SAY STOP! This is not the future we want! We want to be free. We want to be able to live a normal life. We want peace. Is that too much to ask?"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/02/free-gaza-youth-manifesto-palestinian

The way they wrote that petition, yes, it is too much to ask. They want freedom, and peace, and yet all they are willing to do to achieve it is write some emotional diatribe? Who is to give them this peace and this freedom that they desire? Who is to sweat and bleed so that they might enjoy peace and freedom?

If they want a chance at freedom, they need to rise up and overthrow the regime that oppresses them (Hamas). And then, if they want peace, they must make peace with the nation that their corrupt leaders have been at war with for generations (Israel).

That is the only effective way to channel their frustration. Raging at the international community for not doing enough will get them nowhere. One's destiny is in one hands' alone, no one else's.

[Wild Bill]

Ignoring or shifting away the blame on Israel by the second page, I'm impressed the abilities of this forum never cease to amaze me. There's even some deriding of the courage it took to do this.

Why are you surprised? It doesn't matter who is doing what on a day to day basis. When you boil the situation down to the essentials, you have to face the fact that Arab states have repeatedly tried to invade Israel. Israel has never initiated a war with its neighbours.

Whenever Israel returned land it had occupied as a result of a war, groups like Hamas promptly used it as convenient rocket launching sites to fire literally thousands of random rockets into civilian areas of Israel.

Only a complete and utter dillhole of a leader would repeat such a mistake as to keep putting his people in danger! It is groups like Hamas that hide their rocket launchers in hospitals and schools. And only a complete moron would expect Israel to just sit there and let it's people be randomly blown to bits, virtually every day.

Any country has a right to defend itself, in whatever way works! Until Israel has security from its neighbours there's no point in talking about any solution that is essentially unilateral.

As I said before, if the rockets stop falling on Israel then they have no reason to launch helicopter strikes. At that point everyone can argue about who is to blame for what.

[Scotty]

At any rate, I wonder if the youths' criticism of Israel, the US et al will automatically drive poeple into thinking they're "extremists"?

Probably.

Even though they're plainly not.

Sometimes extremism is called for. But I don't know how it will solve anything in this instance. Extremism against Israel isn't going to work. Much like the American "war on drugs" they've been banging their heads agaisnt that brick wall for years and its only made them hurt more. But it does seem like they need to find some extremist way to get rid of Hamas.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Why are you surprised? It doesn't matter who is doing what on a day to day basis. When you boil the situation down to the essentials, you have to face the fact that Arab states have repeatedly tried to invade Israel. Israel has never initiated a war with its neighbours.

That's a rather... selective view of history.

[DogOnPorch]

That's a rather... selective view of history.

Clear it up for us, would you?

[Guest TrueMetis]

Clear it up for us, would you?

I shouldn't have to... but okay see the first Lebanon War. You know the one that began with Israel invading Lebanon? You could argue that is was because the ANO tried to assassinate Shlomo Argov, but the ANO had nothing to do with Lebanon and the PLO there, and Israel knew that they just wanted a weak pretext to invade.

[DogOnPorch]

I shouldn't have to... but okay see the first Lebanon War. You know the one that began with Israel invading Lebanon? You could argue that is was because the ANO tried to assassinate Shlomo Argov, but the ANO had nothing to do with Lebanon and the PLO there, and Israel knew that they just wanted a weak pretext to invade.

So the PLO shelling Israel from Lebanon had nothing to do with the '82 War. Well, one learns something new everyday.

[Guest TrueMetis]

So the PLO shelling Israel from Lebanon had nothing to do with the '82 War. Well, one learns something new everyday.

Not according to Israel. The attempted assassination of Argov was the "merely the spark that lit the fuse" according to then Israeli Defense minister Ariel Sharon. You can argue but the fact is the war started when Israel invaded.

Edited January 3, 2011 by TrueMetis

[DogOnPorch]

Not according to Israel. The attempted assassination of Argov was the "merely the spark that lit the fuse" according to then Israeli Defense minister Ariel Sharon. You can argue but the fact is the war started when Israel invaded.

Certainly...because PLO/Syrian artillery and rocket fire isn't really warfare. It is something else entirely.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Certainly...because PLO/Syrian artillery and rocket fire isn't really warfare. It is something else entirely.

I'm just telling you what the Israeli defence minister at the time said. Of course according to many on these boards it wouldn't be because terrorists are not lawful combatants. (read a couple of pages on the Omar Khadr thing.

Here's a bit of reading for you.

My link

My link

[Wild Bill]

I'm just telling you what the Israeli defence minister at the time said. Of course according to many on these boards it wouldn't be because terrorists are not lawful combatants. (read a couple of pages on the Omar Khadr thing.

Here's a bit of reading for you.

My link

My link

TM, are you saying that just because you don't have a specific quote from that defence minister that he was responding to the constant shelling and rocket attacks that those were not factors? That no Israeli civilians were getting bombs dropped on their heads everyday? That Israel intended just to let them keep falling and only got upset over an attempted assassination?

More specifically, is it your position that Israel is SUPPOSED to ignore rockets and shells raining down on them? That any Israeli attempt to stop such attacks is actually agression on Israel's part?

If you're going to label Israel the aggressor then it would seem that must be what you believe.

[Guest TrueMetis]

TM, are you saying that just because you don't have a specific quote from that defence minister that he was responding to the constant shelling and rocket attacks that those were not factors? That no Israeli civilians were getting bombs dropped on their heads everyday? That Israel intended just to let them keep falling and only got upset over an attempted assassination?

More specifically, is it your position that Israel is SUPPOSED to ignore rockets and shells raining down on them? That any Israeli attempt to stop such attacks is actually agression on Israel's part?

If you're going to label Israel the aggressor then it would seem that must be what you believe.

... This isn't me saying this this was the Israeli Defense minister, the attempted assassination of the ambassador was the excuse given bu Israel for the invasion. Had they said" they are shelling us we are going to stop it" that would be one thing, instead they used an assassination attempt by a group not affiliated with the PLO or Lebanon as their justification.

ETA The Warriors Way that I linked says the same thing.

Edited January 3, 2011 by TrueMetis

[DogOnPorch]

TM, are you saying that just because you don't have a specific quote from that defence minister that he was responding to the constant shelling and rocket attacks that those were not factors? That no Israeli civilians were getting bombs dropped on their heads everyday? That Israel intended just to let them keep falling and only got upset over an attempted assassination?

More specifically, is it your position that Israel is SUPPOSED to ignore rockets and shells raining down on them? That any Israeli attempt to stop such attacks is actually agression on Israel's part?

If you're going to label Israel the aggressor then it would seem that must be what you believe.

As well...let's not forget how the PLO ended up in Lebanon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan

[dre]

Certainly...because PLO/Syrian artillery and rocket fire isn't really warfare. It is something else entirely.

By that tortured logic Arab aggression in 67 was warranted because Israel bombed Syria a couple of years before.

Attempts by either side to say the other side "started it" are a joke and should not be taken seriously.

[DogOnPorch]

By that tortured logic Arab aggression in 67 was warranted because Israel bombed Syria a couple of years before.

Attempts by either side to say the other side "started it" are a joke and should not be taken seriously.

Check your history...the Mufti and crew started this conflict. But wait...that's right...you don't believe in the Grand Mufti do you Charlie Brown?

[Wild Bill]

... This isn't me saying this this was the Israeli Defense minister, the attempted assassination of the ambassador was the excuse given bu Israel for the invasion. Had they said" they are shelling us we are going to stop it" that would be one thing, instead they used an assassination attempt by a group not affiliated with the PLO or Lebanon as their justification.

ETA The Warriors Way that I linked says the same thing.

Ok, that is what the Defense Minister said.

Now, again I ask: What is your position? Do you deny the shelling and rockets? Are you saying that Israel should ignore them and not respond? Are you saying that Israel should return land even though in the past when they tried that the land was used as more convenient launch sites against them?

I've haven't heard anything from you that doesn't sound unilaterally in favour of the Palestinians. I'm just trying to pin you down to a clear position that I can understand.

[dre]

Check your history...the Mufti and crew started this conflict. But wait...that's right...you don't believe in the Grand Mufti do you Charlie Brown?

Typical bullshit strawman. You can go back as far as you want and claim thats the "starting point". Both sides claim the other started it, and that argument is never going to be settled. Its a waste of time anyways, and makes no real difference.

[DogOnPorch]

Typical bullshit strawman. You can go back as far as you want and claim thats the "starting point". Both sides claim the other started it, and that argument is never going to be settled. Its a waste of time anyways, and makes no real difference.

The Mufti is a waste of time for you as it isn't very PC to acknowledge what the actual roots of the Palestinian cause are and how the same murderous mentality continues to fester to this very day in the various terror groups of the region.

[dre]

The Mufti is a waste of time for you as it isn't very PC to acknowledge what the actual roots of the Palestinian cause are and how the same murderous mentality continues to fester to this very day in the various terror groups of the region.

Mufti or no Mufti ANY people that lived there would respond to the occupation with violence. Just like people did in Afghanistan, Chzecknia, Iraq, Polan, Russia, etc. At its root the palestinians are resisting Israeli occupation for the same reason American Colonists rebelled against British rule. People want self determination. The rectal pap you continuously spout is utterly irrelevant. If/when the occupation ends... violence will end. End of story.

My guess is though is that in 200 years our great grand kids will still be having this same discussion, and those shitbags will still be doing everything they possibly can to provoke each other.

[DogOnPorch]

Mufti or no Mufti ANY people that lived there would respond to the occupation with violence. Just like people did in Afghanistan, Chzecknia, Iraq, Polan, Russia, etc. At its root the palestinians are resisting Israeli occupation for the same reason American Colonists rebelled against British rule. People want self determination. The rectal pap you continuously spout is utterly irrelevant. If/when the occupation ends... violence will end. End of story.

My guess is though is that in 200 years our great grand kids will still be having this same discussion, and those shitbags will still be doing everything they possibly can to provoke each other.

So were Jews born in the Mandate before 1948 'occupying' it? Why was Yasser Arafat a Palestinian (born in Cairo: 1929)? His father's background (part of the al-Husseini clan)? Seems everybody had their own version of Zionism. Mark Twain/Sam Clemens found the place to be virtually deserted in 1869...unless he was just a Zionist schill...lol.

[M.Dancer]

So were Jews born in the Mandate before 1948 'occupying' it? Why was Yasser Arafat a Palestinian (born in Cairo: 1929)? His father's background (part of the al-Husseini clan)? Seems everybody had their own version of Zionism. Mark Twain/Sam Clemens found the place to be virtually deserted in 1869...unless he was just a Zionist schill...lol.

and again, why no violance against Egypt and Jordan who occupied the gaza and the west bank from 1949 to 1967?

My guess is there were enough Jews for them to get worked up about.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Ok, that is what the Defense Minister said.

Now, again I ask: What is your position? Do you deny the shelling and rockets? Are you saying that Israel should ignore them and not respond? Are you saying that Israel should return land even though in the past when they tried that the land was used as more convenient launch sites against them?

I've haven't heard anything from you that doesn't sound unilaterally in favour of the Palestinians. I'm just trying to pin you down to a clear position that I can understand.

I was simply responding to your bs notion that Israel has never started a war.

As for my opinion on this, I'm going to continue watching what happens with this group before I've made up my mind.

[Rue]

I have contended in earlier posts during Middle East discussions that

Palestinians are as mad at Hamas and the Palestinian Authority and

Arab League nations as they are Israel.

If anything what this outburst serves to remind us is that this is not

a black and white issue where all Palestinians think the same and all

Israelis think the same and we can reduce this complex conflict into

black and white, good guy v.s. bad guy scenarios.

The fact is Hamas has miserably failed its people by deliberately

choosing to engage in terrorism and violence and blowing up the

infrastructure of its people built during an earlier time period when

Israel did work hand in hand with Muslim charities building roads,

houses, community centres, schools in Gaza and allowing Gaza residents

into Israel to work.

It was Hamas which deliberately chose to turn from anti-terrorism and violence

to just that and threaten all its people with death and torture if they

tried to live peacefully with Israelis.

Hamas first and foremost is the primary agent of culpability for the

plight of Palestinians in Gaza.

I believe Palestinians in Gaza turned to Hamas not because of violence

but because they were desperate for an alternative to the corupt Arafat

Palestinian authority.

The Palestinian Authority under Arafat and Abbas has no one but itself

to blame for its continuing coruption.

The Arab League is to blame for failing to take an active role in

unanimously denouncing terrorism and exerting pressure on Hamas and

Hezbollah to cease and desist. The Arab Leage of nations prefer to

use Israel as a convenient scapegoat to sidetrack from their own

internal economic problems and political coruption.

The Arab League of nations has historically been responsible for

its own internal corupt, brutal, totalitarian regimes some closely

related to fundamentalist extremist Muslims they use to maintain

their political power bases.

All that said, while I am a strong supporter of Israel's right to exist and a Zionist I also do not want Palestinians to remain in their horrible status quo- their plight is not the vision Zionism intended and Zionism can never be complete until the Jewish collective can find peace with its Arab neighbours and help build a future for Palestinians.

So with that in mind I also would say with no reluctance that yes Israel's governments may very well have missed the boat failing to take advantage of opportunities to avoid confrontation and instead perhaps engage in excessive force and/or missed opportunities to dialogue peacefully.

Its security quaranntine of Gaza to prevent arms smuggling while necessary I believe may have gone too far with certain items or took too long for products to be processed through the border.

All sides can find blame. I am not here to point fingers at just

one party although I believe Hamas shares most of the moral blame. The bottom line is if a solution is found calling anyone names or judging them won't mean a damn thing and if anything will only prevent peace from coming about.

We have to move on from the blame game. Now. The youth are saying stop with the name calling and focusing on past mistakes and deal with here and now. Enough is enough harping over the past. Deal with now.

To Gaza youth I say this loud and clear-reach out

to Israeli youth and form peace networks.

Just do it. Use the internet and also initiate physical contacts in neutral countries.

That is how you break this cycle of violence and never changing despair.

Reach out. Just reach out. Revolutions are started by one person, just one

reaching out to his alledged enemy and forming a friendship.

Israeli youth are just as frustrated and angry as Palestinian youth. If

they genuinely thought they had someone to reach out to on the other side

they would.

So now just do it.

So simple, yet so hard to do because we all are afraid to each out to our

enemy for fear of rejection.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Rue

[bloodyminded]

Ignoring or shifting away the blame on Israel by the second page, I'm impressed the abilities of this forum never cease to amaze me. There's even some deriding of the courage it took to do this.

Agreed. I suppsoe it's because they're mere Palestinians, so are inherently losers or something....

[bloodyminded]

The way they wrote that petition, yes, it is too much to ask. They want freedom, and peace, and yet all they are willing to do to achieve it is write some emotional diatribe? Who is to give them this peace and this freedom that they desire? Who is to sweat and bleed so that they might enjoy peace and freedom?

If they want a chance at freedom, they need to rise up and overthrow the regime that oppresses them (Hamas). And then, if they want peace, they must make peace with the nation that their corrupt leaders have been at war with for generations (Israel).

That is the only effective way to channel their frustration. Raging at the international community for not doing enough will get them nowhere. One's destiny is in one hands' alone, no one else's.

The posting of this was a direct response to people who say--with straight faces--"where are all the moderate Muslims?"

"Where are all the peaceable Palestinians?"

Here they are.

So, stuff like this gets posted.

And it is then derided and scoffed at. By a few of you, not by everybody.

These youths are taking a risk, here.

It's not nothing.

One's destiny is in one hands' alone, no one else's.

This is an empty platitude, and it is flatly untrue.

Edited January 9, 2011 by bloodyminded