eyeball Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 My real agenda is to get people to see reality. And the reality is that there is a real East v. West problem in the world. Don't you mean a West v. East problem though? I don't recall any Eastern countries sneaking into our countries to overthrow our governments and to help install or prop-up bloodthirsty dictators and regimes and especially do all this while preaching far and wide and loud about the sanctity of freedom, human rights and the rule of law and order yadda yadda yadda. I mean, if somebody had been doing that to our countries for decade after decade and with no end in sight I'd probably feel like blowing shit up too. You are clearly trying to hide being a pseudo-intellectual microanalysis of the differences between people who hate us. No, you are. At the end of the day many more Easterners move to Canada and the U.S. in total safety and freedom, indeed at our expense, than they welcome of us. Care to try to open a church or synagogue in Saudi Arabia? Not today, but I'm quite convinced that if the West, and most specifically the Americas, had simply minded our own business all those decades ago that today you'd probably have little problem opening a church or synagogue just about anywhere in the whole Muslim world. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Guest TrueMetis Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Not today, but I'm quite convinced that if the West, and most specifically the Americas, had simply minded our own business all those decades ago that today you'd probably have little problem opening a church or synagogue just about anywhere in the whole Muslim world. You'd probably be able to do it easier 500 or so years ago. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 You'd probably be able to do it easier 500 or so years ago. Yeah, right... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vienna http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Malta_(1565) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto ...etc. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
dre Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 And more to the point, what does the west do that would incite fanatics to kill their own countrymen at a place of worship? Can they not be insanely murderous without our help? My guess is that once you tally things up theres a fuck of a lot more westerners killing easterners over there than vice versa. And of course convervatives on both sides are more than happy to play up the whole religion angle and frame the whole thing around "christians vs muslims" and that creates real danger for christian and muslim minorities (you can see that happening constantly on this forum). Its too bad theres so many people around to get caught in the crossfire because I wish yawl could just fight to the death. If the militant conservatives on their side could fight the militant conservatives on our side without anyone else getting hurt this whole thing would go from being a global crisis to a fantastic pay per view event. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Guest TrueMetis Posted January 7, 2011 Report Posted January 7, 2011 Yeah, right... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Constantinople http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vienna http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Malta_(1565) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto ...etc. Yes people back then conquered each other to expand their empires, this is true of Christians, Muslims, Hindu's, whoever. Quote
jbg Posted January 7, 2011 Author Report Posted January 7, 2011 My guess is that once you tally things up theres a fuck of a lot more westerners killing easterners over there than vice versa. Anything to apologize for the West's success I guess.How come in such relatively new countries such as Australia or Israel or for that matter Canada you don't have throngs of largely idle people whose only activities in life are prayer and sex? I am tired of the apologies for success. I am even more tired of U.N. subsidies for countries whose people blow up what is built rather than build. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Bonam Posted January 8, 2011 Report Posted January 8, 2011 I am even more tired of U.N. subsidies for countries whose people blow up what is built rather than build. Petition your government to cease funding the UN. The US is by far its biggest contributor. Quote
dre Posted January 8, 2011 Report Posted January 8, 2011 Anything to apologize for the West's success I guess. How come in such relatively new countries such as Australia or Israel or for that matter Canada you don't have throngs of largely idle people whose only activities in life are prayer and sex? I am tired of the apologies for success. I am even more tired of U.N. subsidies for countries whose people blow up what is built rather than build. Oops! You accidentally responded to my post with a reply that was apparently meant for a different post or even a different thread. I didnt apologized for the wests success. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
jbg Posted January 8, 2011 Author Report Posted January 8, 2011 Oops! You accidentally responded to my post with a reply that was apparently meant for a different post or even a different thread. I didnt apologized for the wests success. I stand by my post. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
dre Posted January 8, 2011 Report Posted January 8, 2011 I stand by my post. Im sure it was very good, it just wasnt a reply to mine. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Rue Posted January 9, 2011 Report Posted January 9, 2011 My real agenda is to get people to see reality. And the reality is that there is a real East v. West problem in the world. You are clearly trying to hide being a pseudo-intellectual microanalysis of the differences between people who hate us. At the end of the day many more Easterners move to Canada and the U.S. in total safety and freedom, indeed at our expense, than they welcome of us. Care to try to open a church or synagogue in Saudi Arabia? I will say it again, you are a one trick pony who tries to bait people into bashing Muslims in general and the Muslim religion in general. There is nothing pseudo-intellectual about my criticism. In fact if anything is pseudo intellectual it is you trying to justify your Muslim bashing. What my agenda is-is to challenge you and anyone who engages in incitement of an entire people and society by engaging in negative stereotypes. My agenda is to remind people that negatively generalizing about any people is pointless. It does nothing but breed intolerance. My agenda is to let people know that well known Jewish Zionists like me and my kind who believe Israel has a right to exist and defend itself against Muslim extremists do not hate Muslims and do not blame all Muslims for the extremists in their society anymore then I want to be labelled as having the same opinions as you or Lieberman, There is a way to discuss extremists and terrorists without doing what you do and that is to incite hatred against all Muslims and not differentiate. You are as intolerant as anyone you claim to criticize and therein lies the irony. Quote
bloodyminded Posted January 9, 2011 Report Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) You've argued this West-as-terrorist angle before. Can you direct us to the prior discussion so that we can see what you're talking about? -k I can't remember where the thread was, so in brief: Indonesia's invasion of East Timor (with American permission, long suspected, now demonstrable thanks to declassified Ford/Kissinger documents); subsequent state terror on an astonishing scale; some controversial (that is, debated, contested within the political arena)) support from Canada; extreme and outright support from the US, the UK, Australia and (I believe, but don't quote me) France. Support was material; and was necessary for the ongoing murders. So was interference with possible UN involvement. All this was flatly illegal. This is normally excused either as "the Cold War"...as if specifics don't matter underneath the awesome power of the talismanic phrase. But what was the Soviet or Chinese involvement that justifies an illegal invasion and hundreds of thousands murdered? No one answers that. Ever. Because it's nonsense. "Cold War" is not a blanket justification for everything; every case is unique and must be looked at specifically. When that answer fails, there is usually some remark about "looking away from horrors," eg Rwanda. But in the East Timor case, there was no looking away; there was a nod at the invasion, and then direct, material support that made the slaughters possible. That's "looking away" just as Suharto, who personally probably killed nobody, was "looking away." That's one. Another, less about the "West" than about the US, is the support of the Contras, a terrorist militia in every way worse than the government they were fighting. But what's astonishing about these cases is that terrorism is simply not viewed as terrorism; not when the West is involved. "Clumsy execution" but "benign intentions" seems to be the general belief...at least by the intellectual and political culture, though not necessarily by the public in a larger sense. (That is, we can find out the opinions of the political and intellectual class to some degree, but the general public's view is far hazier.) And this belief is essentially a religious one. Or else a fairly banal form of moral relativism. All this, I think, really begs the related questions: why do we think we're opposed to terrorism, when we objectively are not; and what does this understanding, this paradigm shift from the conventional, doctrinal discussions about terrorism, do to these discussions? Is there "good" and "bad" terrorism? At bottom, that seems to be the argument. But that's not the argument we pretend to be having. The pretence is to straight-up denunciation of "terrorism," not only of others' terrorism. Except, of course, only "others" commit terrorism. The tautology is lovely. Edited January 9, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
bloodyminded Posted January 9, 2011 Report Posted January 9, 2011 LOL! Pot...Kettle...WHITE! ?? what the hell you on about, sport? I ignore no one, and am willing and able to debate them head on. M. Dancer doesn't. Ever, I mean...zero. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
jbg Posted January 10, 2011 Author Report Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) I will say it again, you are a one trick pony who tries to bait people into bashing Muslims in general and the Muslim religion in general. I wouldn't call my starting a thread about a joint Muslim/Jewish effort to aid the Christian poor (link) last Christmas a trick or a pony. I guess you overlooked that thread. I go to almost any lengths to find positive material about Islam. There is nothing pseudo-intellectual about my criticism. In fact if anything is pseudo intellectual it is you trying to justify your Muslim bashing. It is not Muslim-bashing. It is removing rose-colored glasses. What my agenda is-is to challenge you and anyone who engages in incitement of an entire people and society by engaging in negative stereotypes.My threads always start and end with facts, not conclusions. My agenda is to remind people that negatively generalizing about any people is pointless. It does nothing but breed intolerance.Not always. There is a lot of waste inherent in looking for Ponzi schemes and financial frauds among Muslims rather than Jews.My agenda is to let people know that well known Jewish Zionists like me and my kind who believe Israel has a right to exist and defend itself against Muslim extremists do not hate Muslims and do not blame all Muslims for the extremists in their society anymore then I want to be labelled as having the same opinions as you or Lieberman,Where is the Muslim activism against extremism? Mohatma Ghandi tried hard to stop the Indian independence movement from turning into a bloodbath. Ditto Martin Luther King with the American blacks. And ditto (though I don't agree with this particular struggle), Rene Levesque's movement in Quebec. There is a way to discuss extremists and terrorists without doing what you do and that is to incite hatred against all Muslims and not differentiate. You are as intolerant as anyone you claim to criticize and therein lies the irony. Not really. I call on you to read my posts a lot more carefully. Edited January 10, 2011 by jbg Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
dre Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) I wouldn't call my starting a thread about a joint Muslim/Jewish effort to aid the Christian poor (link) last Christmas a trick or a pony. I guess you overlooked that thread. I go to almost any lengths to find positive material about Islam. It is not Muslim-bashing. It is removing rose-colored glasses. My threads always start and end with facts, not conclusions. Not always. There is a lot of waste inherent in looking for Ponzi schemes and financial frauds among Muslims rather than Jews. Where is the Muslim activism against extremism? Mohatma Ghandi tried hard to stop the Indian independence movement from turning into a bloodbath. Ditto Martin Luther King with the American blacks. And ditto (though I don't agree with this particular struggle), Rene Levesque's movement in Quebec. Not really. I call on you to read my posts a lot more carefully. Where is the Muslim activism against extremism? Its all over the place if you look for it. Jihadist ideology has been marginalized in most muslim countries... mainly because the jihadis kill 10 times as many muslims as anyone else. But you have no right to demand anything of anyone besides that they live a good life as individuals. Most of the worlds muslims are just slogging through life trying to have shelter and food to eat. What youre suggesting borders on extremism itself... its guilt by association and its ugly quite frankly... almost like a crime of thought or a crime of speech youre accusing these people of. Besides that the problem with what youre saying is that a muslim community rejecting extremism in a random country just isnt news worthy. You would never hear about it ANYWAYS. Your reality is based on information that can sell advertising, and those type of stories just dont. The reality though is that theres a conflict in Islam over violent extremism and Jihad. When a jihadi gets hunted down or killed chances are it was muslims that did it, and the vast majority of the people killed by jihadists are other muslims that wont buy into their extremism. Edited January 10, 2011 by dre Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
bloodyminded Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 Besides that the problem with what youre saying is that a muslim community rejecting extremism in a random country just isnt news worthy. You would never hear about it ANYWAYS. Your reality is based on information that can sell advertising, and those type of stories just dont. A really good point, and in fact I would carry it further: there is ideology at play in the omissions, at least when the omissions are obvious. For example, Ayaan Hirsi Ali has been given a decent amount of attention and publicity, is sought after for her opinions, and so on. I see no problem with this. But despite her (more or less) liberalism, she has thrown herself wholeheartedly into the arms of the hawks, even getting a place of honour in the American Enterprise Insitute. (This is rather ironic, because the neocons are, at heart, remarkably anti-democratic; they support democratic forms, but don't care much for democratic principles...but this is a lengthy subject for another post.) But ok, fine; she had an interesting and often victimized life, and there's no reason she shouldn't speak her opinion. But there are lots of Muslims (and ex-Muslims) who have had similarly remarkable lives, who are also articulate and deeply supportive of secular, humanist values. But if they don't properly navigate the "correct" narrative, they aren't sought after for opinions; they aren't asked for their expert opinions on matters of Islam, the West, militaristic policies, and so on. Why not? (Never mind; a rhetorical question.) An obvious example would be Malalai Joya, Afghanistan's youngest MP, a secular feminist, and who has been risking her life for years struggling agaisnt the Taliban. Her chief concerns are for the rights and welfare of children, women, and the poor and disenfranchised generally; of men imprisoned for arbitrary religious reasons and tortured, and so on. Well, she sounds like a perfect candidate. But there's a couple of small issues with Joya which make her largely unsuitable for North American interviews on prime time, or for gushing editorials in major newspapers, as people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali receive. Because Joya doesn't only oppose the Taliban; she also opposes the warlords who make up much of the current government. She spoke out against them in Parliament, for some reason objecting to their hatred, their violence, their oppressive misogyny. (These "radicals" never know when to be quiet, do they? Respect our excellent allies, who are identical to the Taliban!) And she was then kicked out of Parliament. Not by the people of Afghanistan, however, but by the corrupt and retrograde leadership. Now, she lives under risk of death, just as she did under the Taliban. But this time, it's our Afghan allies who wish her dead. That's why US, Canadian, Uk commentators have been speaking on her behalf, against these outrages...oh, wait; no, they haven't. Those who even know she exists don't seem to much like her, because she calls NATO, the US, Canada, the UK, etc "war criminals." So, her principles, her courage, and the fact that our allies wish to kill her is of no moment. That's simply "not done" in polite circles. Because she tells the "wrong" story, one that doesn't make Westerners look like the Enlightened But Misunderstood Heroes of our feverish political fantasies. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
DogOnPorch Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 Got yer regular Lotta Hitschmanova here...lol. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bloodyminded Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 Got yer regular Lotta Hitschmanova here...lol. ? How so? Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
Oleg Bach Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 I know a few Coptic Christians..They are fine people..they all have a tiny little cross tatooed on the inside of their left wrist..they are ancient and committed to civilization through good behaviour...but those that are good are seemingly now hated abroad and here - If you are good..it is considered a threat and a type of dysfunctional disalbity these days...take for instance those aweful jerks - the ugly and satanic looking atheists that are now going to advertise on TTC bill boards...these people are simply what they appear to be - just plain ugly and pushy..miserable bastards that if they could would kill you - because you do not submit to them..but lucky for us we have good law enforcement..unlike in other areas of the world were good people are murdered openly. Quote
bloodyminded Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 I know a few Coptic Christians..They are fine people..they all have a tiny little cross tatooed on the inside of their left wrist..they are ancient and committed to civilization through good behaviour...but those that are good are seemingly now hated abroad and here - If you are good..it is considered a threat and a type of dysfunctional disalbity these days...take for instance those aweful jerks - the ugly and satanic looking atheists that are now going to advertise on TTC bill boards...these people are simply what they appear to be - just plain ugly and pushy..miserable bastards that if they could would kill you - because you do not submit to them..but lucky for us we have good law enforcement..unlike in other areas of the world were good people are murdered openly. I'm not sure that the atheists are such a terrible threat to the inherent decency of the suffering Christians. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
dre Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 I'm not sure that the atheists are such a terrible threat to the inherent decency of the suffering Christians. His statement is actually an outrageous falsehood. Atheists are one of the least evangelical groups in society. I have bible thumpers show at my door a few times a year trying to push their schtick and their books on me. Guess how many atheists have shown up biology text books? The abrahamites on the other hand have killed millions of people trying to get them to believe. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Guest TrueMetis Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 His statement is actually an outrageous falsehood. Atheists are one of the least evangelical groups in society. I have bible thumpers show at my door a few times a year trying to push their schtick and their books on me. Guess how many atheists have shown up biology text books? One day I am so going to do that. Quote
bloodyminded Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 His statement is actually an outrageous falsehood. Of course it is. It was too outrageous for me to allow it a serious response. Quote As scarce as truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand. --Josh Billings
dre Posted January 10, 2011 Report Posted January 10, 2011 Of course it is. It was too outrageous for me to allow it a serious response. Oh great! So the jokes on me Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
jbg Posted January 10, 2011 Author Report Posted January 10, 2011 Its all over the place if you look for it. Jihadist ideology has been marginalized in most muslim countries... mainly because the jihadis kill 10 times as many muslims as anyone else.So marginalized that in Pakistan a governor is liberated murdered because he wanted mercy for a Christian woman about to be executed for saying something uncomplimentary about Mohamed. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
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