Crown Corporations

[M.Dancer]

That said, I'll admit that I'm not feeling that much sympathy for the corporate execs who are threatened by competition from Crown corporations.

How about the employees? Should their opportunity be limited by unfair competetion?

[Evening Star]

Is there anything to show that labour standards or employment levels in any industry are negatively affected by Crowns? Why do I never hear about unions demanding privatization? If anything, I would think that the presence of a stable, publicly-backed employer with an almost definitely unionized workforce would be good for potential workers.

[M.Dancer]

Why do I never hear about unions demanding privatization?

BNecause all crowns are unionized while only a smalll fraction of the privately employed are. Unions don't give a rats ass about efficiancy or cost effectiveness when their paycheck is coming from tax dollars...

[Evening Star]

So you're acknowledging that it is mainly corporate owners and execs who are the 'victims' of competition from Crowns, then, not workers?

[M.Dancer]

So you're acknowledging that it is mainly corporate owners and execs who are the 'victims' of competition from Crowns, then, not workers?

How do you get that idea? We all suffer when competition is stifled. Ad dollars pay everyone's salary in broadcasting and when Global almost went down, who do you think wouyld suffer the most, the board level executives or the administation personal?

[Shwa]

How about the employees? Should their opportunity be limited by unfair competetion?

How is the competition from the CBC unfair? They have to deal with the CRTC like anyone else, likely more than anyone else. Practically all competition is government regulated anyways.

It's not the CBC's fault if Global craps out just like it's not the Royal Canadian Mint's fault if people stop buying the crap from the Franklin Mint.

[Wilber]

How is the competition from the CBC unfair? They have to deal with the CRTC like anyone else, likely more than anyone else. Practically all competition is government regulated anyways.

Government regulated not government supported.

[Shwa]

Government regulated not government supported.

Except for the land leases for natural resources, tax breaks and bailouts. Otherwise, point taken.

[Evening Star]

How do you get that idea? We all suffer when competition is stifled. Ad dollars pay everyone's salary in broadcasting and when Global almost went down, who do you think wouyld suffer the most, the board level executives or the administation personal?

OK, I'll acknowledge that some individual employees may in fact be negatively affected by competition from Crowns. I'm just not sure that, on the whole, this is generally the case for the workforce in a given industry. As I stated earlier, it seems that the increased public funding and union protection could be beneficial. I mean, it is not generally my experience that private corporations are especially loyal to or concerned about most employees even without competition from Crowns, especially without union organization. If a private business's only social responsibility is to increase its profits within the guidelines of market competition, I have to assume that the conditions and opportunities of its workers are going to be secondary.

[Michael Hardner]

The question of how Crown corps help/hinder individual employees is complex.

Of course, less open competition is bad for the marketplace but since CCs tend to offer better security, there's an argument that workers in a sector are helped by the presence of a CC.

The key question in my mind is whether the CC in question would go away (be absorbed, merge, or fold) or be replaced by a private version of the same.

In the case of the CBC, it seems to me that the entity would still be around but likely with less of a worker-friendly environment.

[M.Dancer]

I mean, it is not generally my experience that private corporations are especially loyal to or concerned about most employees ...

That may be your experience, how deep is it?....how about Westjet? Toyota or the bulk of the economy that doesn't have a unionized workforce and where the employees have rejected collectivization?

[M.Dancer]

How is the competition from the CBC unfair?

The CBC gets around $930 million from Ottawa. How about CTV, Shaw and the other national networks get the same to make it equal...or even better, how about they all get none?

[Argus]

BNecause all crowns are unionized while only a smalll fraction of the privately employed are. Unions don't give a rats ass about efficiancy or cost effectiveness when their paycheck is coming from tax dollars...

Whereas non union workers have only the best interests of the company at heart, right? They care only about efficiency, adn nothing at all about their own pay cheques or benefits.

[Argus]

The things you dislike about Crowns are the things you would appreciate if some of them became private entitites. Canada Post, for example, has a mandate which, though they like to make money, is concerned with serving the country. A private entity would have no such concern. Sure, the government could mandate that they service the entire country, but what areas would they slack off in which weren't profitable? Probably anyplace rural, to begin with. Yeah, you'd get your mail. It just might take twice as long, and you'd have fewer deliveries, and it might cost more. A privatized Canada Post would focus its efforts on whatever made the most money, and relegate the rest to whatever they had to do to meet the strictest definition - or interpretation - of their contract with the government.

Same goes for Via Rail. They only want the profitable lines, and everything else will be given short shrift by a private company focussed on profit. Whichi s no big deal I guess, if you're in Toronto, but could be a concern to people in smaller centres, or farmers and such who need to ship goods by rail, and who suddenly see their rates shoot up.

[M.Dancer]

Same goes for Via Rail. They only want the profitable lines, and everything else will be given short shrift by a private company focussed on profit. Whichi s no big deal I guess, if you're in Toronto, but could be a concern to people in smaller centres, or farmers and such who need to ship goods by rail, and who suddenly see their rates shoot up.

Famers don't ship goods on VIA....they use either CP or CN.

[Evening Star]

That may be your experience, how deep is it?....how about Westjet? Toyota or the bulk of the economy that doesn't have a unionized workforce and where the employees have rejected collectivization?

My private sector experience is not terribly deep, I'll grant. I'll look up the cases you mention.

[nicky10013]

Well, AECL is going, but Canada Post probably isn't. Canada post could go with a similar arrangement to Air Canada. It would compete with couriers, but it would have to provide service to areas that the others don't.

AECL isn't going anywhere.

After a year-long process to sell AECL, the government has failed to attract any international bidders who could bring financial heft and global marketing clout to the company, which was once a global leader in reactor sales but is now relegated to the sidelines.

Only two companies have submitted formal bids, say sources close to the negotiations: Montreal-based SNC-Lavalin Group Inc. (SNC-T58.94-0.83-1.39%) and Ontario’s Bruce Power, which operates the Bruce nuclear plant on Lake Huron. Both prospective buyers are offering far less than what Ottawa believes the company to be worth, based on a confidential valuation provided by Wall Street investment firm Rothschild Inc.

.....

However, it appears Ottawa will end up with a deal that will relegate AECL to the status of a niche player, marketing an updated version of its existing, smaller Candu 6 reactor and refurbishing existing Candus around the world. Taxpayers won’t be off the hook completely as the bidders want Ottawa to continue to provide support for the industry, including financing overseas sales, dealing with waste issues and supporting research and development.

Bryne Purchase, a former deputy energy minister in Ontario, said he is worried that Ottawa will sell AECL but retain much of the risk associated with technology development.

“The worst of all possible worlds is where you’ve privatized any upside but you’ve kept all the risk,” he said. “We’ve seen that before.”

[Evening Star]

That may be your experience, how deep is it?....how about Westjet? Toyota or the bulk of the economy that doesn't have a unionized workforce and where the employees have rejected collectivization?

So Westjet does seem like a good employer.

Toyota seems like a less clear-cut case:

http://in.reuters.com/article/idINT18852520071205

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/nb20080913a1.html

http://www.thestar.com/article/347093

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-9887351_ITM

In any case, I don't doubt that some private-sector corporations may be good employers. (Google is a good example, from what I hear.) That in and of itself is still not enough to convince me that competition from Crown corporations is generally bad for workers in the affected sector. As Michael H points out, it could easily be beneficial.

[M.Dancer]

That in and of itself is still not enough to convince me that competition from Crown corporations is generally bad for workers in the affected sector. As Michael H points out, it could easily be beneficial.

Anything that impacts negatively the profist of private companies is bad for everyone who works for those companies. it is absurd to argue otherwise.

[Evening Star]

Yeah, but if a Crown corporation is present, we also have another employer available in the sector, one that probably offers union protection and publicly-backed employment security. So on the whole, I'm not sure that it would be bad for the workforce in the sector, although individual workers' experiences will vary (as they would anyway). As Michael notes, if an institution like the CBC were to be privatized, it would probably become a roughly similar institution, except less friendly to workers and maybe smaller.

[M.Dancer]

As Michael notes, if an institution like the CBC were to be privatized, it would probably become a roughly similar institution, except less friendly to workers and maybe smaller.

It would certainly become smaller as 3/4 of its revenues are from our tax dollars. Giving them free money provides no incentive to actually improve their product in such a way that would attract viewers, which would attract more ad dollars.

Another factor to the unfairness of crown corps competing is who owns risk. When a private copr needs capital they make an IPO and the risk is sold to investors who choose, on the merits of the company to either buy or not. When a crown needs capital, they are simply given it anmd the taxpayers own the risk, but inevitably do not see the reward. Individual investors deserve better that to be short changed by their own country.

[Michael Hardner]

Anything that impacts negatively the profist of private companies is bad for everyone who works for those companies. it is absurd to argue otherwise.

Overstatement. 2 employers create a labour market, where 1 employer creates a labour monopoly. Would you rather have 2 clients bidding for your services or 1 ?

[Michael Hardner]

... but inevitably do not see the reward.

What does that mean ? Does it mean that there is nor reward or that people don't look for a reward or realize that there is one ?

There definitely can be a reward. As for us "seeing it", we have to look for it and we don't. Typically, healthcare is the worst example. The government of Ontario has spent $1B on something that nobody understands to any significant degree, and meanwhile the result (service levels) is not of enough concern that people expect to be able to monitor and provide feedback to the government on performance.

If we behave like we're children - that the government will provide for us if we're good and we don't bawl too much - then we deserve what we get.

[M.Dancer]

What does that mean ? Does it mean that there is nor reward or that people don't look for a reward or realize that there is one ?

There definitely can be a reward. As for us "seeing it", we have to look for it and we don't. Typically, healthcare is the worst example. The government of Ontario has spent $1B on something that nobody understands to any significant degree, and meanwhile the result (service levels) is not of enough concern that people expect to be able to monitor and provide feedback to the government on performance.

If we behave like we're children - that the government will provide for us if we're good and we don't bawl too much - then we deserve what we get.

I have no idea what you are on about.

[M.Dancer]

Overstatement. 2 employers create a labour market, where 1 employer creates a labour monopoly. Would you rather have 2 clients bidding for your services or 1 ?

I would rather have 3. With Canada Post, we only have one. No one is allowed to deliver a letter cheaper than the post office.