Crown Corporations

[Smallc]

Of course it is....they think they are competing against air travel and decided that air canada is their competition...unfortunately they try to match air canada's service instead of being better than them. They went after the business travellor by touting the 3:59 minute travel time between Toronto and Montreal....but because they don't own the lines they more often than not sit on the side while the 200 car CN train gets priority...

Well, that's becoming a thing of the past with the strategically placed third line. Eventually (hopefully) VIAFast will be implemented, but it won't be soon.

[Shwa]

Oh I don't know, perhaps transfer payments, OAS, defence...a multitude of other thing.

These things are already in place and functioning. Are you now advocating for a sell-off of Crown Corporations to increase transfer payments, OAS and defence spending?

I already said that - Canada Post, and the Royal Canadian Mint. VIA on the other hand uses a fair amount of money as does CBC TV.

So you would sell revenue generating entities to spend that money on projects that require revenue generating entities outside of the normal tax system. Why on earth would we sell something that is generating revenue for Canadians?

As for the CBC and it's worth, I think that you are perhaps not really looking at the big picture in terms of worth to Canadians:

Encyclopedia of Music in Canada entry for the CBC:

The CBC's importance in the cultural and social fabric of Canada is incalculable, whether it is engaged in the quick dissemination of news across the world's second-largest country, in the spreading of cultural nourishment to outlying areas hundreds of kilometres from the amenities of urban life, in creating and supporting the employment of musicians, or in commissioning and providing exposure to Canadian compositions. No other single organization has played so large a role in making Canadians and the outside world aware of Canadian cultural pursuits and in helping these to flourish. It is no surprise that throughout EMC's biographies of mid- and late-20th century musicians no other organization is acknowledged as often as the CBC, whether as a performance medium, an employer, a sponsor, or a discoverer of talent.

[Moonlight Graham]

I like having a public broadcaster as well, and I find that outlets like the CBC, BBC, and PBS are of consistantly higher quality than their private counterparts, unless you need to know stuff about what hollywood celebrity recently got a boob-job.

I agree mostly, but the big difference between PBS and CBC (not sure about BBC) is that the CBC is owned by the govt and PBS is not (though it is partially funded by a private corp Corporation for Public Broadcasting, which receives funding by the US gov).

I don't mind keeping the CBC a Crown corp, though i would sell off or eliminate CBC News because i dislike the idea of the gov operating a major news outlet.

[Smallc]

These things are already in place and functioning. Are you now advocating for a sell-off of Crown Corporations to increase transfer payments, OAS and defence spending?

Yes. I would have thought it was self evident.

So you would sell revenue generating entities to spend that money on projects that require revenue generating entities outside of the normal tax system. Why on earth would we sell something that is generating revenue for Canadians?

Because the government has no business being in the business. Now, we could keep Canada post and the Mint, fine, but there is no reason for the government to own VIA, AECL, or CBC TV. Getting rid of those would save about a billion dollars a year.

As for the CBC and it's worth, I think that you are perhaps not really looking at the big picture in terms of worth to Canadians:

Encyclopedia of Music in Canada entry for the CBC:

I generally don't listen to music on TV, do you?

[M.Dancer]

The BBC is even or onerous than the CBC, Not only do they get funded by the gov't, every TV owner has to pay a yearly license fee for every tv they own....whether they watch BBC or not.

[Battletoads]

Seems to me you are wrong.

How much more does Potash cost? Would it cost any less if it was a mismanaged crown? Was Air Canada a better managed company when it was a crown? How about CN?

The Privatization of the sask's potash crown corp was a huge mistake, sold by the province for 630 million in the late 80ies, and worth well over 40 billion now. That's not including revenues lost to private non-canadian intrests either.

Air Canada is still a terirble airline, that would have died long ago had the feds not intervened countless times. I don't see how being obligated to keeping the airline from crashing and burning while it pays out to private interests is good for Canadians.

You only have to look at the sale of bc rail to see the difference between a well managed public rail way and a privately managed rail way. Hell all you need to do is look at BC to see that these claims that hocking crown/public corperations will be good for the public are complete and utter bullshit.

And I would have thought it would be abundantly clear that I was talking about the selling off of well managed crown corperations, so I'll say it again and more clearly. Well managed public corperations which provide essential/important services will be far cheaper for Canadians in the long run.

[William Ashley]

I don't know why you all are in such support of making Canada a dependency on private enterprise.

It would take a lot of functional restructing to make the sales feasable.

It would require a much larger military chain for essential service provisions.

Letter mail is capable of being "more secure" than electronic communication systems, such as phone and internet and fax.

There are some service areas that may not be profitable.

Really it would require a governmental "pony express" to communicate governmental mail - and it would overlap provincial municipal and federal. The royal mail was privatized partly in England. Partial privatizations arn't bad if control stays with the government, but the catch is.. it will lead to one of two things - job loss or increased prices. A competition allowance - will only bring in "a plethora" of smaller providers" on profitable routes.. increasing public cost for maintaining non profitable routes.

The mint is problematic because it is where Canadian money comes from. So without abandoning the control on the currency it becomes incredibly redundant - also the mint makes money (it is profitable)

I'm still very suprised atomic energy is shutdown - with new supplies coming from Russia, after all the northern sovreignty talk. Also what private company do you sell it to? A lot of nuclear power plants in Canada are privately owned but they freuqently have pricing issues with the public.. then you got to wonder how the federally funded health care industry is suppose to cope with having cheaper foreign supply than the domestic supply of a private venture. it likely mmeans two things.. a private success will cost Canada money from health care costs anyway.

CBC could be spun off - into CBC programming and CBC broadcasting. CBC programming is not essential (but where else are you going to get Canadian content???) CBC broadcasting (along with a governmental news agency IS - essential - who is going to watch a NEWS channel --- hold on this worked for CNN?? I think CBC Broadcasting should have shows pay them for broadcast - or public service announcements more like PBS - while meeting unmet Canadian need - but only allowing Canadian content broadcast on it -- this would hopefully reduce costs.. the spin off CBC programming would turn into a production agency - with the potential for online service offerings) although it would be phased out... because of costs (unless a "pay for" public finance council under an arts fund council provided arts funding for the spin off to float it. It could then offer free programming to CBC broadcasting.. continuing the relationship.

- CBC however has provided a spring board to many many Canadian media personalities - and it in that repsect - contributes far more to Canada than direct returns - as it is a growth mechanism for media in Canada - and there is a general "national identity" of a seemingly non corporate nature" it has potentially drifted from the 1930's though. but what was it about back then? An alternative to american dominated programming and a means of keeping up with current technology - including military infrastructure. THIS IS A PUBLIC EMERGENCY BROADCAST**** ALERT.. who is going to do that who is going to insure that the CRTC? where are they? who is controlling the towers?

There are probably a bunch of other agencies and corps that need to be assessed for "enhancement" .. but Canada needs more crown corps.. profitable crown corps means "revenue" without taxation.

Removal of taxes while keeping a functional government is GOOD.

Edited December 29, 2010 by William Ashley

[M.Dancer]

The Privatization of the sask's potash crown corp was a huge mistake, sold by the province for 630 million in the late 80ies, and worth well over 40 billion now.

It is only "worth" $40B because that is the market capitalization...the owners of the company (shareholders) and those wanting to be owners of the company have determined that price. As a crown corporation, the value would be substantially less while all the risk is owned by the tax payers.

And I would have thought it would be abundantly clear that I was talking about the selling off of well managed crown corperations, so I'll say it again and more clearly. Well managed public corperations which provide essential/important services will be far cheaper for Canadians in the long run.

What is this, "well managed crown corporation"?

[Battletoads]

It is only "worth" $40B because that is the market capitalization...the owners of the company (shareholders) and those wanting to be owners of the company have determined that price. As a crown corporation, the value would be substantially less while all the risk is owned by the tax payers.

Where can I buy what you're smoking? Its got to be some very strong stuff.

[M.Dancer]

Where can I buy what you're smoking? Its got to be some very strong stuff.

Lost for words eh?

No brain, no pain....

[Battletoads]

Lost for words eh?

No brain, no pain....

No need for words, your argument defeats itself.

If the Potash Corp of Saskatchewan was still a public entity potash would not magically sell for less and the corperation would not be 'somehow' less valuable. In fact the only real differance would be an important resource and revenue stream would still be Canadian owned...

[M.Dancer]

No need for words, your argument defeats itself.

If the Potash Corp of Saskatchewan was still a public entity potash would not magically sell for less and the corperation would not be 'somehow' less valuable. In fact the only real differance would be an important resource and revenue stream would still be Canadian owned...

You don't know the difference between valuation and market capitalization. Potash corp has a market cap of $43B. That represents the value of the shares held. crfown corporations do not have shares. Crown corporations cannot float an IPO to raise capital to expand. Instead they rely on public funds which means that the public purse owns the risk. The capital markets took Potash corp, a lack lustre enterprise and took it to a mega cap company, the risk being held by the shareholders and the province and canada still the beneficiaries of multiple sources of revenue from the corporation and the shareholders.

If Potash was still a crown, it would indeed sell for less because it would be floating a new IPO and that IPO would be based on the real evaluation of the business..which is to say, far less than $43B. For example the current market cap is over 25 times its yearly revenues.

[M.Dancer]

In fact the only real differance would be an important resource and revenue stream would still be Canadian owned...

Potash is still canadian owned...and traded on the TSX

[Moonlight Graham]

Seems it usually ends up costing Canadians more when businesses go from public to private.

Hey Battletoads, how come i couldn't get past the level in your game where i'm riding the rocket sled but keep banging into those random cement walls.

[Battletoads]

Potash is still canadian owned...and traded on the TSX

51%+ of its investors are non-Canadian. Seems that would preclude the idea that it's Canadian owned.

[M.Dancer]

51%+ of its investors are non-Canadian. Seems that would preclude the idea that it's Canadian owned.

49% of the owners and a head office in Saskatoon say different...

[Battletoads]

Hey Battletoads, how come i couldn't get past the level in your game where i'm riding the rocket sled but keep banging into those random cement walls.

You just need to develop the skill of precognition, then it's easy to get past the cement wall boss.

[Battletoads]

49% of the owners and a head office in Saskatoon say different...

Thats great, 49% =/= Candian owned or controlled.

[M.Dancer]

Thats great, 49% =/= Candian owned or controlled.

and 51% foreign =/= foreign owned or controlled...in fact, it's controlled by its board of directors who are elected by the 49% canadian and 51% foreign investors...and with all that, Potash corp is a major source of revenue for Sask...far more than it was when it was a lack lustre crown and in debt to the tune of $800M

[Battletoads]

and 51% foreign =/= foreign owned or controlled...in fact, it's controlled by its board of directors who are elected by the 49% canadian and 51% foreign investors...and with all that, Potash corp is a major source of revenue for Sask...far more than it was when it was a lack lustre crown and in debt to the tune of $800M

Last I checked 51%+ is a majority and thus controls the company.

Oh and It`s funny how it was doing just fine till the pro-privatization PCs got elected. Well not really funny considering the huge economic loss sask suffered because some people were too blind to look past their ideology.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Battletoads

[M.Dancer]

Last I checked 51%+ is a majority and thus controls the company.

Oh and It`s funny how it was doing just fine till the pro-privatization PCs got elected. Well not really funny considering the huge economic loss sask suffered because some people were too blind to look past their ideology.

Remember when the tinfoil corp was a crown?

[Battletoads]

Remember when the tinfoil corp was a crown?

I see, I am crazy to think politicians, known as the most honorable and honest people in society, would malipulate things to get their way.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Battletoads

[Shwa]

Yes. I would have thought it was self evident.

Self-evident perhaps, but not at all logical.

Because the government has no business being in the business. Now, we could keep Canada post and the Mint, fine, but there is no reason for the government to own VIA, AECL, or CBC TV. Getting rid of those would save about a billion dollars a year.

Here is where this wishy-washy type argument comes off the rails. The government has no business being in the business, yet practically all western governments are. Perhaps the rest of western civilization is not reading from the same manual as you are?

But supposing for a moment that government actually "has no business being in the business" as you assert. Don't you think it is interesting that the very next thought contradicts your own assertion? You know, government "has no business being in the business," except it is "fine" if "we could keep" some of the businesses.

I generally don't listen to music on TV, do you?

Well for one, practically all commercial television shows have music so you either don't watch television or you are deaf.

Like I said, big picture. You didn't read the article did you?

[Smallc]

Quite frankly, I don't care about the article. The government should sell Crown Corporations that compete with private business because they are taking away money from business.

[M.Dancer]

I see, I am crazy to think politicians, known as the most honorable and honest people in society, would malipulate things to get their way.

No...of course not...you don't have to be crazy to believe that in an open society, with due dillegence and oversight, baord goverenance and audits, that an arms length corporation would be secretly manipulated during a downturn in the commodities market after a prolonged buying spree.....not crazy....there are other mundane explanations....