Madoffs son suicide

[dre]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/11/new.york.madoff.son.suicide/index.html?hpt=T1

Hopefully the news makes Bernies life even worse

[Bonam]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/11/new.york.madoff.son.suicide/index.html?hpt=T1

Hopefully the news makes Bernies life even worse

Man I really don't understand the extent of the hatred people have for mere financial criminals. Yes, he committed a crime and deserves to be punished, and is being punished. But however many life sentences he got, when cold-blooded murderers are often sentenced to less? Gleeful exaltation in the death of his son? That just goes way too far. No criminal deserves the death of their children, no matter what they have done, and this is a far far cry from many more terrible crimes.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Bonam

[Pliny]

Man I really don't understand the extent of the hatred people have for mere financial criminals. Yes, he committed a crime and deserves to be punished, and is being punished. But however many life sentences he got, when cold-blooded murderers are often sentenced to less? Gleeful exaltation in the death of his son? That just goes way too far. No criminal deserves the death of their children, no matter what they have done, and this is a far far cry from many more terrible crimes.

Especially in light of the fact that he was the one that turned his father in to the authorities and then never had any further communication with his father for the following two years.

Even his two daughters 4 and 2 years old are being held for ransom by the courts.

It is shameful!

[Pliny]

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/12/11/new.york.madoff.son.suicide/index.html?hpt=T1

Hopefully the news makes Bernies life even worse

It most likely will.

[dre]

Man I really don't understand the extent of the hatred people have for mere financial criminals. Yes, he committed a crime and deserves to be punished, and is being punished. But however many life sentences he got, when cold-blooded murderers are often sentenced to less? Gleeful exaltation in the death of his son? That just goes way too far. No criminal deserves the death of their children, no matter what they have done, and this is a far far cry from many more terrible crimes.

Actaully I think the story is sad, and that his son is just another one of Madoffs victims. I wish it didnt happen but since his did Im fine with the knowledge of it making Madoffs life even worse.

Man I really don't understand the extent of the hatred people have for mere financial criminals.

Yeah me neither! Why would people dislike a guy that stole the lifes saving of hundreds of thousands of people?

and this is a far far cry from many more terrible crimes.

I disagree. I think the killing of one or two people is nowhere NEAR as serious a crime as stealing the live savings of millions. Madoff committed hundreds of thousands of counts of a the same crime. Each count worthy of a few months in Jail. His sentence makes perfect sense.

[Bonam]

I disagree. I think the killing of one or two people is nowhere NEAR as serious a crime as stealing the live savings of millions.

Here is where we fundamentally disagree. Life, even of a single individual, is a more sacred value than mere money. To rob someone of their life means you have utterly ended their existence, there is nothing they can do about it. To rob someone of their money means they gotta go work some more or take out some loans or scale back their retirement plans or something. A cold-blooded murderer should in my book always receive a stronger punishment than someone who steals money, regardless of the amount stolen.

[Smallc]

Here is where we fundamentally disagree. Life, even of a single individual, is a more sacred value than mere money. To rob someone of their life means you have utterly ended their existence, there is nothing they can do about it. To rob someone of their money means they gotta go work some more or take out some loans or scale back their retirement plans or something. A cold-blooded murderer should in my book always receive a stronger punishment than someone who steals money, regardless of the amount stolen.

I'm not sure (in fact I'm quite sure) that you lack understanding of the depth of this crime. If someone steals nearly every cent that you have, then they might as well have killed you, especially if you are in or nearing retirement. To take away something that people have worked their entire life to attain, to rob them of dreams that they were only beginning to or were about to begin to realize, well, as I said; you might as well have killed them. This isn't money (not most of it anyway) that will be replaced, and much of the money belongs to people who don't have the ability to work to replace it.

A person like Madoff is beyond contempt. He has committed a crime as serious as, if not more serious, than murder. There is no doubt that he is responsible for a thousand individual tragedies in a thousand households. These come as secondary consequences to what he has done. Suicides, domestic squabbles, substance abuse. This is not some kind of fluffy light crime. This is a crime (especially given its scale) as serious as any other, if not more so in many cases.

[Bonam]

I'm not sure (in fact I'm quite sure) that you lack understanding of the depth of this crime. If someone steals nearly every cent that you have, then they might as well have killed you, especially if you are in or nearing retirement. To take away something that people have worked their entire life to attain, to rob them of dreams that they were only beginning to or were about to begin to realize, well, as I said; you might as well have killed them. This isn't money (not most of it anyway) that will be replaced, and much of the money belongs to people who don't have the ability to work to replace it.

A person like Madoff is beyond contempt. He has committed a crime as serious as, if not more serious, than murder. There is no doubt that he is responsible for a thousand individual tragedies in a thousand households. These come as secondary consequences to what he has done. Suicides, domestic squabbles, substance abuse. This is not some kind of fluffy light crime. This is a crime (especially given its scale) as serious as any other, if not more so in many cases.

I am aware of the depth of his crimes and I maintain my viewpoint that money is just money. Might as well have killed them? Complete BS. Would you rather your daughter, son, wife, father, or mother, for example, were brutally murdered, or if their life savings were stolen? The difference should be plain as day for anyone to see.

[Smallc]

I am aware of the depth of his crimes and I maintain my viewpoint that money is just money. Might as well have killed them? Complete BS. Would you rather your daughter, son, wife, father, or mother, for example, were brutally murdered, or if their life savings were stolen?

Okay...now, lets have that family, and take away all that money. Watch your family suffer because everything that you have was taken away from you. Now watch the fights that come within a family because of the lack of money. Then watch all the things that happen from there. Substance abuse is a common problem, and suicide is not uncommon enough. I've seen what poverty does to people, though I've never experienced it myself. There are things worse than death.

[bush_cheney2004]

I am aware of the depth of his crimes and I maintain my viewpoint that money is just money. Might as well have killed them? Complete BS. Would you rather your daughter, son, wife, father, or mother, for example, were brutally murdered, or if their life savings were stolen? The difference should be plain as day for anyone to see.

Agreed...it is only money. Their station in life may change, but it is not the end of the world. There are also documented cases of families being destroyed by money (e.g. lottery winners).

[Wilber]

Here is where we fundamentally disagree. Life, even of a single individual, is a more sacred value than mere money. To rob someone of their life means you have utterly ended their existence, there is nothing they can do about it. To rob someone of their money means they gotta go work some more or take out some loans or scale back their retirement plans or something. A cold-blooded murderer should in my book always receive a stronger punishment than someone who steals money, regardless of the amount stolen.

I'm wondering how many suicides resulted among the people he wiped out. Tell someone in their seventies they just have to go out and make it all back. How do you scale back a retirement if you have nothing left to scale back? Madoff is as cold blooded as any murderer, he just doesn't have the guts to do it up front and personal. I won't compare his crime to a murder but he betrayed a trust and people suffered for it, big time. That makes him a first class asshole who deserves whatever he gets.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... I won't compare his crime to a murder but he betrayed a trust and people suffered for it, big time. That makes him a first class asshole who deserves whatever he gets.

Agreed...but it is not a capital offense. Remember, these same people had no problem believing they had the edge on investment returns over market averages, just like the Enron employees greedy enough to ride the wave.

[Bonam]

Okay...now, lets have that family, and take away all that money. Watch your family suffer because everything that you have was taken away from you.

You are talking to someone whose family not very long ago had nothing at all. We arrived in Canada with $500 cash and the clothes on our backs. We're doing a lot better now. Suffering along the way was minimal. I mean, some might call living in a 500 sqft apartment with 3 generations of people suffering, others might call it saving money while you plan for bigger and better things.

Now watch the fights that come within a family because of the lack of money. Then watch all the things that happen from there.

Families that start fighting because they lost some money were sh*tty ass families to begin with. Financial tragedy is a time for family members to help each other out, not to fight. Good old family values anyone?

Substance abuse is a common problem, and suicide is not uncommon enough.

One could say the same thing about million heirs and heiresses and celebrities. It says much more about the person and the way they were raised than their financial situation.

I've seen what poverty does to people, though I've never experienced it myself. There are things worse than death.

There are things worse than death, but a one time loss of money is not one of them.

Agreed...it is only money. Their station in life may change, but it is not the end of the world. There are also documented cases of families being destroyed by money (e.g. lottery winners).

Thanks. I was beginning to think I was the only person in this thread with their head screwed on straight.

I'm wondering how many suicides resulted among the people he wiped out. Tell someone in their seventies they just have to go out and make it all back. How do you scale back a retirement if you have nothing left to scale back?

Someone in their seventies without their own savings is eligible for all kinds of government handouts which will make their life in their old age just fine. And, of course, they should also have family members (their children) to help them out in difficult times.

Edited December 13, 2010 by Bonam

[Smallc]

Someone in their seventies without their own savings is eligible for all kinds of government handouts which will make their life in their old age just fine. And, of course, they should also have family members (their children) to help them out in difficult times.

I'm not sure why anyone would go to such lengths to pretend that this isn't a serious crime that can cause as much in the way of hardship as a death. Money problems have some of the most profound impacts on people and families. Those who steal someone's entire life savings deserve no sympathy, and they certainly don't deserve the excuses that you are for some reason making for them.

[Jack Weber]

Someone in their seventies without their own savings is eligible for all kinds of government handouts which will make their life in their old age just fine. And, of course, they should also have family members (their children) to help them out in difficult times.

To quote one of the greatest authors of the last 500 years,and being quite precient,considering the time of year...

"Are there no prisons???...Are there no workhouses???....

ARE THERE NO PRISONS???...ARE THERE NO WORKHOUSES???...."

Edited December 13, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Bonam]

I'm not sure why anyone would go to such lengths to pretend that this isn't a serious crime that can cause as much in the way of hardship as a death. Money problems have some of the most profound impacts on people and families. Those who steal someone's entire life savings deserve no sympathy, and they certainly don't deserve the excuses that you are for some reason making for them.

Seriously dude read what you are responding to before you do so. I already said that he deserves to be punished, and is being punished. I agree that his punishment should be severe, as it indeed is.

But to place this crime above taking someone's life directly is wrong. And to be gleeful at the death of his son is wrong as well and shows a depraved and dangerous personality.

And no, taking someone's money does not cause "as much in the way of hardship as death". Take my money and I will still be alive. Where there is life there is hope. Take my life and I will not. You speak as if a number in your bank account is the sum and total of your existence. Are you a lifeless automaton that values nothing else? The relationships in ones life, the friendships, the knowledge that one has, the emotions that one feels. I don't know how you can exist in such a gray and dreary state where you cannot fathom the greater meaning and content of life besides one's money.

My respect for the humanity of most of the people in this thread is rapidly dwindling with every post.

[dre]

Here is where we fundamentally disagree. Life, even of a single individual, is a more sacred value than mere money. To rob someone of their life means you have utterly ended their existence, there is nothing they can do about it. To rob someone of their money means they gotta go work some more or take out some loans or scale back their retirement plans or something. A cold-blooded murderer should in my book always receive a stronger punishment than someone who steals money, regardless of the amount stolen.

Right.... but your not taking into account the number of victims. I agree that stealing someones lifes savings is not as bad as killing them, and that most people can rebuild. Maybe stealing someones lifes savings should get you a sentence of a year or two, whereas 1st degree murder should get you a lot more.

The problem is Madoff didnt commit such a crime. He commited hundreds of thousands of individual crimes against hundreds of thousands of people. The totality of those hundreds of thousands of crimes is without a doubt a bigger crime than a single murder, and this has been enshrined in our legal system for a long long time. A murderer is a criminal... But Madoff is a criminal mastermind that organized hundreds of thousands of crimes against hundreds of thousands of people and families.

My guess is hes probably only doing about 30 minutes of time for each life he destroyed. Not much comfort for those victims. He got off EASY.

[dre]

Seriously dude read what you are responding to before you do so. I already said that he deserves to be punished, and is being punished. I agree that his punishment should be severe, as it indeed is.

But to place this crime above taking someone's life directly is wrong. And to be gleeful at the death of his son is wrong as well and shows a depraved and dangerous personality.

And no, taking someone's money does not cause "as much in the way of hardship as death". Take my money and I will still be alive. Where there is life there is hope. Take my life and I will not. You speak as if a number in your bank account is the sum and total of your existence. Are you a lifeless automaton that values nothing else? The relationships in ones life, the friendships, the knowledge that one has, the emotions that one feels. I don't know how you can exist in such a gray and dreary state where you cannot fathom the greater meaning and content of life besides one's money.

My respect for the humanity of most of the people in this thread is rapidly dwindling with every post.

But to place this crime above taking someone's life directly is wrong. And to be gleeful at the death of his son is wrong as well and shows a depraved and dangerous personality.

Thats not whats happening though. Youre trying to compare murder and theft, and obviously concluding that murder is a more serious crime. But Madoff didnt commit a single crime he was the architect of the large crime spree in history. He commited hundreds of thousands of individual crimes.

Even if he only served an hour for each family whos lifes savings he stole he would still be in jail for hundreds of years.

But yes... murder IS more serious. And a person responsible for as many murders and the number of thefts Madoff is responsible would be viewed by our legal system and by society as a way way bigger menace than Mr Madoff. But those arent the two situations we are comparing here.

[Wilber]

Agreed...but it is not a capital offense. Remember, these same people had no problem believing they had the edge on investment returns over market averages, just like the Enron employees greedy enough to ride the wave.

I'm not a believer in capital punishment, nor am I a believer in blaming the victim. Madoff is a thief pure and simple, one who was motivated simply by greed, not need.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm not a believer in capital punishment, nor am I a believer in blaming the victim. Madoff is a thief pure and simple, one who was motivated simply by greed, not need.

OK....but so were many of his "victims".

[Wilber]

OK....but so were many of his "victims".

They may have been motivated by greed but they were not thieves. We all want to make a buck but most of us aren't willing to steal to do it.

[Smallc]

My respect for the humanity of most of the people in this thread is rapidly dwindling with every post.

I don't think you're getting me at all. In fact, from everything in the post above, I know you're not. It isn't only about money. Life is about far more, and so is this particular crime. Dre has it right. It's about the magnitude of the crime, not only the severity. In this case, what Madoff has done has ruined so many lives, and maybe even taken some. For some people, when you reach a certain point, there is no longer hope.

Edited December 13, 2010 by Smallc

[wyly]

Right.... but your not taking into account the number of victims. I agree that stealing someones lifes savings is not as bad as killing them, and that most people can rebuild. Maybe stealing someones lifes savings should get you a sentence of a year or two, whereas 1st degree murder should get you a lot more.

how does stealing someone's lifes savings with a pen rate only a year or two where as if someone were to rob another of $100 with a gun get they get an extended time behind bars...theft with a pen or a gun the crime should be seen the same...

[bush_cheney2004]

how does stealing someone's lifes savings with a pen rate only a year or two where as if someone were to rob another of $100 with a gun get they get an extended time behind bars...theft with a pen or a gun the crime should be seen the same...

Errr...no...that's not how the criminal code works. Armed assault matters.

Madoff would probably get probation in Canada! LOL!