London Students Riot

[GostHacked]

Right, and since you volunteered the issue of merit, it should not go without further comment. Students in high school who excel at academics will have better opportunity and access to education choices. Such was the case for me, when many of my classmates were more interested in mastering sex and drugs instead of differential equations!

However by marks in high school were not an indicator of my true potential. My marks in high school say I am average, or below average, and yet I was able to rise above the other average people who did get high marks and did go to post secondary education at a really good school. It may have taken longer for me to get here, but I am here now.

So because my marks are low and would disqualify me to get into something like Harvard. But I guess if I was rich, I could grease the Dean's palm with some cash and get my education. Which tells me that higher tuition is not going to solve any issue.

[bush_cheney2004]

However by marks in high school were not an indicator of my true potential. My marks in high school say I am average, or below average, and yet I was able to rise above the other average people who did get high marks and did go to post secondary education at a really good school. It may have taken longer for me to get here, but I am here now.

True, but by your own admission, this epiphany came late in the game and may have cost you an opportunity. The system is not designed for second chances.

So because my marks are low and would disqualify me to get into something like Harvard. But I guess if I was rich, I could grease the Dean's palm with some cash and get my education. Which tells me that higher tuition is not going to solve any issue.

Not unless you had some other legacy advantage. Most people cannot buy their way into Harvard or Yale. My sister went to Yale grad school only because of merit (and student loans). Grades count.

Edited December 10, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Bonam]

And completely unaffordable for someone like me.

Like other schools, they provide financial support for students of merit.

Not only that my high school grades would disqualify me from even applying to those schools.

Not everyone needs to go to Harvard, it's ok.

Anyway, high tuition, highly selective institutions like these produce/educate some of America's brightest minds which go on to become leaders of industry, scientific and technological innovation, medical advancement, etc. Not to mention the research that is conducted at the institutions themselves, which would be impossible without adequate funding.

[GostHacked]

Like other schools, they provide financial support for students of merit.

And assistance for those who have no merit but are dirt poor.

Not everyone needs to go to Harvard, it's ok.

It's not really the point. If I wanted to go to Harvard, my high school grades will mean I am not going there meaning money is not the issue and won't get me a better education than someone else. It all comes down to the person.

Anyway, high tuition, highly selective institutions like these produce/educate some of America's brightest minds which go on to become leaders of industry, scientific and technological innovation, medical advancement, etc. Not to mention the research that is conducted at the institutions themselves, which would be impossible without adequate funding.

Would you not want more smart people by making education affordable and easily accessible to all? Since a country like Canada or the US or the UK needs to import talent and educated people from poorer countries like India, how does high tuition fees locally help us get smart? Why the need to import talent? Whats wrong here?

We will do anything to import talent, but yet don't seem to be concerned about raising homegrown talent.

[GostHacked]

Some pics of the riots

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/12/london_tuition_fee_protest.html

[bush_cheney2004]

....Would you not want more smart people by making education affordable and easily accessible to all? Since a country like Canada or the US or the UK needs to import talent and educated people from poorer countries like India, how does high tuition fees locally help us get smart? Why the need to import talent? Whats wrong here?

What's wrong here is that you are making choices for limited available investment in not only post secondary, but also K-12 and pre-school / daycare, not to mention many other pressing government outlays (e.g. healthcare) vs. revenue. It is not going to get any better anytime soon. There are affordable options for students who do want or need a gold plated degree, starting with local community colleges and vocational schools.

We will do anything to import talent, but yet don't seem to be concerned about raising homegrown talent.

Both nations were built that way....why stop now?

[Bonam]

Would you not want more smart people by making education affordable and easily accessible to all? Since a country like Canada or the US or the UK needs to import talent and educated people from poorer countries like India, how does high tuition fees locally help us get smart? Why the need to import talent? Whats wrong here?

We will do anything to import talent, but yet don't seem to be concerned about raising homegrown talent.

We do produce our own talent. Many of today's most brilliant scientists, engineers, medical researchers, etc, are of North American origin. As for why we import talent, it is because the economic powerhouses of North America can always (except during severe recessions) benefit from additional highly talented individuals, which we can attract here with our vastly higher salaries and quality of life compared to many of their home countries. We produce plenty of our own talent and import even more, because we can.

[Sir Bandelot]

These bandwidth wasting arguments of yours are mere distraction do not even touch on the point of the real problem, which is indicated in the OP.

"(We) plan to carry on campaigning. This isn't a single issue. We all know this is bigger than just student fees - this is ideological. The government is attacking the working classes."

"I think people are aware of how tuition fees, Education Maintenance Allowance, and other cuts are tied-in together."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11965694

[Bonam]

These bandwidth wasting arguments of yours are mere distraction do not even touch on the point of the real problem, which is indicated in the OP.

"(We) plan to carry on campaigning. This isn't a single issue. We all know this is bigger than just student fees - this is ideological. The government is attacking the working classes."

"I think people are aware of how tuition fees, Education Maintenance Allowance, and other cuts are tied-in together."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11965694

Blah blah ideology. What matters is keeping the quality of education up to par in a time of government cutbacks and reduced spending. The only way for schools to compensate for reduced funding from governments is to either reduce spending or to raise tuition. Reducing spending means firing TAs, not upgrading equipment in labs and facilities, not hiring new profs, not improving lecture facilities, letting dorms degrade, etc. This is not conducive to good education. Raising tuition means these things can instead continue to receive funding, while poor students can still get their education through one of the many financial aid or student loan programs available.

Btw, I say this as someone who paid 100% out of my own pocket for my university education. Student loans and working during the summer all the way, my parents contributed nothing to paying for my university education. It doesn't get much "poorer" than that. And I had no problem. In fact, my student loans are already completely paid off, even though I'm still in a PhD program.

People need to stop whining about not being "given opportunities" or whatever other BS, get off their asses, and fill out a few forms for loans, bursaries, and scholarships. Oh, and get some internships and/or summer jobs to help pay for things. If they are too inept and lazy to do that, they don't need or deserve a university education anyway.

[Sir Bandelot]

People need to stop whining about not being "given opportunities" or whatever other BS, get off their asses

Yeah sure you paid your own way, through student loans and it helped to produce the fine individual you are now. Let's see how well you'll do when the fee triples. Care to pay three times the amount of your loans? At higher interest.

"Oh hlah blah, ideology..." Yeah, cutbacks... Too bad you still don't get it. It has nothing to do with the fee for education. That problem is only an example. What's this all about, and what did that British bloke really mean?

Rather than spoon feed you information that you will only regurgitate, I will use the socratic method to help enlighten you on what the problem really is.

[Bonam]

Yeah sure you paid your own way, through student loans and it helped to produce the fine individual you are now. Let's see how well you'll do when the fee triples. Care to pay three times the amount of your loans? At higher interest.

The fees did triple, while I was in school, as I said above. And I'm now studying in the states, where tuition fees eclipse what these students are whining about.

"Oh hlah blah, ideology..." Yeah, cutbacks... Too bad you still don't get it. It has nothing to do with the fee for education. That problem is only an example. What's this all about, and what did that British bloke really mean?

He meant some crap about class warfare that makes no sense. I'm talking facts and reality, you and he are talking meaningless platitudes.

[Sir Bandelot]

The fees did triple, while I was in school, as I said above. And I'm now He meant some crap about class warfare that makes no sense. I'm talking facts and reality, you and he are talking meaningless platitudes.

Ever consider that your "facts and reality" is nothing more than what you've been indoctrinated to accept. No, probably not. You are not an outside of the box thinker. Just another card carrying member of the party. Here is your leash. put around neck, and wag tail, and you will be fed a nice snack

Because the handover of billions of public money to the wealthy elite and their big business, to prop up their failures, they who buried their profits into their own bank accounts, gave the workers no increase but layoffs, and then gave themelves bonuses as a reward, is quite acceptable to people like you.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Because the handover of billions of public money to the wealthy elite and their big business, to prop up their failures, they who buried their profits into their own bank accounts, gave the workers no increase but layoffs, and then gave themelves bonuses as a reward, is quite acceptable to people like you.

Even if this were true, why would you assume the money should go to students? Shall other groups and causes riot in the streets to get their way as well?

[GostHacked]

Blah blah ideology.

Ideology is exactly what you are buying into. it's just different.

What matters is keeping the quality of education up to par in a time of government cutbacks and reduced spending.

That would matter maybe if this was public school which is payed for by everyone's taxes, however post secondary education is paid for by the person going to school. The government has nothing to do with the actual spending of a PRIVATE educational institution. Unless we have gotten into a realm that universities are now publicly funded and therefor no longer a private institution. Otherwise the government has nothing really to do with the prices of education.

You'd think the government would be wanting prices to go down so more people get the chance to get a higher education. Higher tuition fees means that there is less money to go around for loans and grants for these students. On 10Gs I could send 3 people to school, now just one. How is that productive in any way?

The only way for schools to compensate for reduced funding from governments is to either reduce spending or to raise tuition. Reducing spending means firing TAs, not upgrading equipment in labs and facilities, not hiring new profs, not improving lecture facilities, letting dorms degrade, etc. This is not conducive to good education. Raising tuition means these things can instead continue to receive funding, while poor students can still get their education through one of the many financial aid or student loan programs available.

Could also just get rid of college sports. Because this to me does not help improve anyone's education. Cut that out and you get more money for the important things. There are many places that easily can be cut instead of raising prices. Sure quality of facilities is an important issue,

Btw, I say this as someone who paid 100% out of my own pocket for my university education. Student loans and working during the summer all the way, my parents contributed nothing to paying for my university education. It doesn't get much "poorer" than that. And I had no problem. In fact, my student loans are already completely paid off, even though I'm still in a PhD program.

Well I agree with BC in the fact that you make of it what you will. If you have the drive and determination, nothing stands in your way. However not many have that drive, and are easily discouraged by the higher prices. I asked myself the same thing, I was wondering how, when I'd have it all paid off. I was lucky to apply and get my student loans, once done my two courses, I was close to 35Gs in the hole. And just in January was able to make the last payment. Some sacrifices need to be made in order for you to reach your ultimate goal.

People need to stop whining about not being "given opportunities" or whatever other BS, get off their asses, and fill out a few forms for loans, bursaries, and scholarships. Oh, and get some internships and/or summer jobs to help pay for things. If they are too inept and lazy to do that, they don't need or deserve a university education anyway.

Well if things are done to discourage people from going to school (like tripling tuition fees) then you either get less people going to school to enjoy these awesome facilities, or you get what you see now. pissed off students who are not taking it sitting down.

[Sir Bandelot]

why would you assume the money should go to students?

The public is already overtaxed, and the money is being used for things that tax was never meant to pay for. If anything it should be used to improve conditions of the common weal. Education should be subsidied with the peoples money, if anything should be subsidied at all, which is debateable.

[Sir Bandelot]

People need to stop whining about not being "given opportunities" or whatever other BS, get off their asses,

That is fine with me. Then I want the government off my back too. People are paying more and more to the government all the time, and getting less and less. Cut a fair deal. Corporations and banks should stop whining too, for the government gravy train all the while they choke on excess food stuffed in their big mouths. These officials elected into government seem primarily interested in supporting the rich. Ordinary people need to protect what's theres. That's where the power struggle lies, and it has ever been thus.

[Bonam]

Ever consider that your "facts and reality" is nothing more than what you've been indoctrinated to accept. No, probably not. You are not an outside of the box thinker. Just another card carrying member of the party. Here is your leash. put around neck, and wag tail, and you will be fed a nice snack

Which party? I don't carry any card btw.

Because the handover of billions of public money to the wealthy elite and their big business, to prop up their failures, they who buried their profits into their own bank accounts, gave the workers no increase but layoffs, and then gave themelves bonuses as a reward, is quite acceptable to people like you.

Care to find a source for claiming that that is my opinion? My opinion on the bailouts has been consistent and the several times I have commented on it I have said the same thing: that the companies should have been allowed to fail and have received no bailouts of any sort. That is the nature of a free market, successful businesses prosper and unsuccessful ones fail.

You are clearly very confused as to my position. You think that because I do not agree with you on this particular topic that I must also represent some evil front to which you get to attribute whatever opinions you want. That is not the case. Perhaps I should lump you in with "the left" and specify what all your opinions should be without caring what they actually are and then flame you for them?

That would matter maybe if this was public school which is payed for by everyone's taxes, however post secondary education is paid for by the person going to school. The government has nothing to do with the actual spending of a PRIVATE educational institution. Unless we have gotten into a realm that universities are now publicly funded and therefor no longer a private institution. Otherwise the government has nothing really to do with the prices of education.

Almost all Canadian universities, British universities, and many American universities are paid for in part by public (government/taxpayer) funding, in case you did not know. Universities get money from three main sources: federal funding, provincial/state funding, and tuition. They also raise money through fundraisers, sale of goods and services on campus, parking on campus, etc. When any of these parts are cut, either the institutions spending must go down, or the revenue raised from one of the other sources must go up. The most common scenario presently is government cutbacks which result in universities having to compensate by raising tuition. I don't know which part of this you failed to understand.

You'd think the government would be wanting prices to go down so more people get the chance to get a higher education. Higher tuition fees means that there is less money to go around for loans and grants for these students. On 10Gs I could send 3 people to school, now just one. How is that productive in any way?

The government may "want that" but the government is not some omnipotent power whose every wish turns into reality by the mere act of wishing it. If the government wants tuition to go down, they'd have to increase funding to universities so that they could keep the quality of education while charging lower tuition. That, or they'd have to mandate that universities must cut spending and thus reduce the quality of education.

Could also just get rid of college sports. Because this to me does not help improve anyone's education. Cut that out and you get more money for the important things. There are many places that easily can be cut instead of raising prices. Sure quality of facilities is an important issue

While I share your lack of interest in college sports, they are not completely useless. For one, physical fitness is important to our society. As it is, too many people grow up overweight or physically unfit. At least those who participate in college sports programs are usually in good shape, and many many students do participate. Also, I'm not sure of how the funding works out at other universities, but at the university I'm presently at, the televisation of the football team actually generates so much revenue that it itself pays for all the funding of all the college sports and still has a bit of money left over to go into the university's general revenue. I'd imagine that is a pretty common situation in American universities since college sports (particularly football) are so widely watched in the states. Hence, the university actually gains money through its sports program rather than using money. Of course, that's probably not true in Canada.

Well I agree with BC in the fact that you make of it what you will. If you have the drive and determination, nothing stands in your way. However not many have that drive, and are easily discouraged by the higher prices. I asked myself the same thing, I was wondering how, when I'd have it all paid off. I was lucky to apply and get my student loans, once done my two courses, I was close to 35Gs in the hole. And just in January was able to make the last payment. Some sacrifices need to be made in order for you to reach your ultimate goal.

If you don't have drive and determination, what's gonna make you study for a test and get a good grade? What's gonna make you persevere through the job finding process once you have your piece of paper claiming that you graduated from university? Sorry but people without drive and determination will be failures whether someone pays for them to go through university or not.

Well if things are done to discourage people from going to school (like tripling tuition fees) then you either get less people going to school to enjoy these awesome facilities, or you get what you see now. pissed off students who are not taking it sitting down.

And that's fine, they can protest. They have the freedom to do so, unless they commit unlawful acts (which some of them did from what I've read). But, I also have the freedom to point out that there's really nothing else the university could do but raise tuition or lower quality of education. You can be sure students wouldn't be too happy if some of their favorite profs were laid off, if some of the campus facilities they used were shut down, if the classes they were excited to take were no longer offered, if the labs they hoped to work in no longer received funding, if the TAs that helped them with their homework no longer existed, etc.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Bonam

[Moonlight Graham]

No, because education is already affordable. Become a doctor on your own dime if you want.

Wouldn't something you need to go into debt to pay for be by definition not affordable?

[Moonlight Graham]

The riots show what happens when people get used to the welfare state and subsidies etc. They get so used to them & feel entitled that when you try to roll them back people won't stand for it. Not that education subsidies are bad, but if a gov't balance its bank account...