israel criticizes aregentina and brazil for recognizing palestinian st

[bloodyminded]

There's a big difference between an ignorant misspelling of something and a typo. An intelligent person should be able to identify the difference.

Sure. But if you're going to play spelling police, you should at least avoid spelling errors...in the very post you offer as a corrective (complete with insults). An intelligent person should be able to recognize this.

[myata]

Two approaches are becoming obvious here: that of reason and principle, voiced by many, most recently Brazil's former president Lula. And that of permanent, neverending and nowhere going status quo. In quoting somebody, "they're OK with the process, it's the peace that they have trouble with".

For all self respecting, independently minded and willing to stand for their principle peoples and countries it's time to decide. Status quo, with the Supreme Chum of Democracy playing into their buddy's hands when they aren't doubling as the Honest and Impartial Agent of "Peace Process", is quickly degenerating into a sour joke.

Kudos to Latin America for their resolve to stand a principled position. Yawn to US everybody should by now guess that there's nothing to expect from their end. And a thin round of applause to Canada for flawless execution of the crucial role of the tenth yapping party in the ongoing "peace process having nothing to do with genuing peace" opera. There were times when... who cares though.

[Rue]

At the end of the day, however, this "recognition" means very little and changes nothing.

Ah I believe that is precisely the point. By the way not that anyone has noticed but Brazil has been an ally of Iran and Syria promoting their agendas now for over 2 years. If you think its because they care try this-they are seeking to sell their nuclear technology and are directly competing in that regard with Russia, North Korea and China.

[myata]

It will, eventually. Like, there's any (sound, rational) alternative? Can't negotiate in good faith with somebody who has no genuine interest in achieving the result, only in "a process" to cover up their incessant aggression.

Don't believe Lula, don't believe me, just do an honest, impartial review of all earlier "processes" and "accords". You'll find that the only measurable result they produced was a massive, persistent growth in illegal settlements. That must be the true aim of this pseudo peace process having very little to do with genuine peace.

Pointless empty words could go as an alternative to the reality only for so long. If people of Palestine stay their course and refrain from massive escalation of violence letting the other side to muddy things up in yet another cycle of violence, it all will be coming and in relatively short stretch of time at that. I.e.:

- international recognition of Palestine;

- universal (with few exceptions) condemnation of occupation and aggression

- sanctions and isolation of the aggressor;

Just as it played out in South Africa a few decades back. Eventually even the Big Democratic Buddy may start feeling awkward supporting this so obvious injustice and aggression.. and that would certainly make their greatest contribution to the eventual just and lasting settlement of the conflict.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Just as it played out in South Africa a few decades back. Eventually even the Big Democratic Buddy may start feeling awkward supporting this so obvious injustice and aggression.. and that would certainly make their greatest contribution to the eventual just and lasting settlement of the conflict.

The "Big Democratic Buddy" has already made a far greater contribution in the region, while the Little Democratic Buddy always says "we gave at the office".

[Rue]

If people of Palestine stay their course and refrain from massive escalation of violence letting the other side to muddy things up in yet another cycle of violence, it all will be coming and in relatively short stretch of time at that. I.e.:

Lol just once I would like to see you be able to restate the above point without the partisan buzz words, i.e., like this:

"if the Palestinian political representatives and their people refrain from terror and violence....recognition as a people by Israel would become inevitable."

Your point which would otherwise have been valuable and insightful.

Edited January 27, 2011 by Rue

[dre]

Spelling mistakes "[don't] convey and impression of intellect or wisdom"?

Ok then.

LOVE when posts designed to berate others for spelling mistakes have spelling mistakes in them.

[dre]

Lol just once I would like to see you be able to restate the above point without the partisan buzz words, i.e., like this:

"if the Palestinian political representatives and their people refrain from terror and violence....recognition as a people by Israel would become inevitable."

Your point which would otherwise have been valuable and insightful.

"if the Palestinian political representatives and their people refrain from terror and violence....recognition as a people by Israel would become inevitable."

That might have been better wording but the statement is still completely false. There is nothing the palestinians could do that would change Israeli policy.

[Bob]

That might have been better wording but the statement is still completely false. There is nothing the palestinians could do that would change Israeli policy.

Depends which Israeli policy you're talking about. Nothing will stop us from building in our capital, but if the Arabs want looser security restrictions the answer is simple - stop terrorism.

[dre]

Depends which Israeli policy you're talking about. Nothing will stop us from building in our capital, but if the Arabs want looser security restrictions the answer is simple - stop terrorism.

Im talking about withdrawing from illegal settlements, and allowing a palestinian state in the west bank.

Building your own capital sounds like a great idea, it just might be good if it was inside your own country

Edited January 27, 2011 by dre

[Bob]

Im talking about withdrawing from illegal settlements, and allowing a palestinian state in the west bank.

Building your own capital sounds like a great idea, it just might be good if it was inside your own country

Depends on which settlements you're talking about. 97% of the West Bank was offered several times during several discussions. The most well-known example being Barak's offer at Taba. You're just speaking in broad generalities because you don't know any of the details and haven't done any research.

As far as our capital, that ain't changing. That's something you'll most likely not see a resolution on. In the words of Aaron David Miller, the parties involved will not allow Jerusalem to be sliced up like a piece of salami, especially not the Temple Mount.

[dre]

Depends on which settlements you're talking about. 97% of the West Bank was offered several times during several discussions. The most well-known example being Barak's offer at Taba. You're just speaking in broad generalities because you don't know any of the details and haven't done any research.

As far as our capital, that ain't changing. That's something you'll most likely not see a resolution on. In the words of Aaron David Miller, the parties involved will not allow Jerusalem to be sliced up like a piece of salami, especially not the Temple Mount.

Depends on which settlements you're talking about. 97% of the West Bank was offered several times during several discussions. The most well-known example being Barak's offer at Taba. You're just speaking in broad generalities because you don't know any of the details and haven't done any research.

Im well aware of the various fake peace attempts.

In the words of Aaron David Miller, the parties involved will not allow Jerusalem to be sliced up like a piece of salami, especially not the Temple Mount.

Funny but one of your afformentioned fake peace attempts actually offered the palestinians half of Jerusalem didnt it?

Anyways... this is all horsehit. There isnt gonna be any settle or agreement until the world gets sick of all you idiots over there in that dump and decides to enforce international law, and that wont happen for quite some time.

[Bob]

The "settlement" I live in, and all the major blocks around Jerusalem aren't up for negotiation for many reasons. They are essential to our security, population, business, and overall community. The 1949-armistice lines aren't borders, and if you actually knew the first thing about Jerusalem and walked through beautiful neighbourhoods ("settlements") which used to be no-man's-land, you'd realize how absurd those lines were. These are just things you can't understand unless you actually spend time looking at maps, as well as walking through the neighbourhoods.

The bottom line, they're not going anywhere for many good reasons. If the recent "Palestine Papers" from Wikileaks are accurate, even the ridiculous PA has reconciled itself to some of these realities.

[dre]

The "settlement" I live in, and all the major blocks around Jerusalem aren't up for negotiation for many reasons. They are essential to our security, population, business, and overall community. The 1949-armistice lines aren't borders, and if you actually knew the first thing about Jerusalem and walked through beautiful neighbourhoods ("settlements") which used to be no-man's-land, you'd realize how absurd those lines were. These are just things you can't understand unless you actually spend time looking at maps, as well as walking through the neighbourhoods.

The bottom line, they're not going anywhere for many good reasons. If the recent "Palestine Papers" from Wikileaks are accurate, even the ridiculous PA has reconciled itself to some of these realities.

Translation: We'll keep what we want to keep and fuck everybody else.

I know that Bob... thats been clear for 50 years.

They are essential to our security, population, business, and overall community. The 1949-armistice lines aren't borders, and if you actually knew the first thing about Jerusalem and walked through beautiful neighbourhoods ("settlements") which used to be no-man's-land, you'd realize how absurd those lines were.

Yup.... Its solid strategy and its working nicely. Building "beautifull neighborhoods" on somebody elses land is good way to position yourself to stake a permanent claim to it. The plan is really no different for most of the other settlements.

[GostHacked]

Depends which Israeli policy you're talking about. Nothing will stop us from building in our capital, but if the Arabs want looser security restrictions the answer is simple - stop terrorism.

Stop the Settlements.

[Bob]

Im well aware of the various fake peace attempts.

Funny but one of your afformentioned fake peace attempts actually offered the palestinians half of Jerusalem didnt it?

Anyways... this is all horsehit. There isnt gonna be any settle or agreement until the world gets sick of all you idiots over there in that dump and decides to enforce international law, and that wont happen for quite some time.

You're certainly not aware of any peace attempts. You've never read any of the details of the negotiations from any source. Why are you pretending otherwise? Why are you afraid to admit that you don't know much about this subject? Not being knowledgeable about the details of historical negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians doesn't make you a bad person, you know... Stop pretending, you and I both know you have no facts without running to Wikipedia.

As far as "the world getting sick of all of us idiots", are you gonna pick up a gun and come pay us a visit? Or are you not a part of that world? Spare us the tough-guy talk. Nobody will force us to do anything. We're not the harmless Jews the world has gotten accustomed to, and we'll fight for our basic rights. And spare us the constant calls to "international law", which we all know is a synonym for anti-Semitic UN-politics advanced by the Arabs and their political allies.

You think we're surprised that in a world where we compose a fraction of a percent of the total population our interests are neglected by "international institutions"?

As usual, speaking with you a complete waste of time which immediately spirals into generalized anti-Israel rhetoric.

[dre]

You're certainly not aware of any peace attempts. You've never read any of the details of the negotiations from any source. Why are you pretending otherwise? Why are you afraid to admit that you don't know much about this subject? Not being knowledgeable about the details of historical negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians doesn't make you a bad person, you know... Stop pretending, you and I both know you have no facts without running to Wikipedia.

As far as "the world getting sick of all of us idiots", are you gonna pick up a gun and come pay us a visit? Or are you not a part of that world? Spare us the tough-guy talk. Nobody will force us to do anything. We're not the harmless Jews the world has gotten accustomed to, and we'll fight for our basic rights. And spare us the constant calls to "international law", which we all know is a synonym for anti-Semitic UN-politics advanced by the Arabs and their political allies.

You think we're surprised that in a world where we compose a fraction of a percent of the total population our interests are neglected by "international institutions"?

As usual, speaking with you a complete waste of time which immediately spirals into generalized anti-Israel rhetoric.

You're certainly not aware of any peace attempts. You've never read any of the details of the negotiations from any source. Why are you pretending otherwise? Why are you afraid to admit that you don't know much about this subject?

This is just more of your usually load of bullshit. When you have no valid argument you start stomping your feet, smearing your own feces all over the walls and decrying the lack of knowledge shown by other posters. Nobody believes your horseshit, victim-boy.

Im well aware of all your fake peace negotiations and have read about most of them.

Edited January 27, 2011 by dre

[Bob]

Really? Which books have you read about Israel's negotiations with the Palestinians?

[dre]

Really? Which books have you read about Israel's negotiations with the Palestinians?

Sorry bobo, Im not going to pit my knowledge of a subject against yours until you have some. You better get studying.

[myata]

"if the Palestinian political representatives and their people refrain from terror and violence....recognition as a people by Israel would become inevitable."

Your point which would otherwise have been valuable and insightful.

No, that isn't what I said.. not in the state of affairs as anybody with unobscured view can see it for themselves. For a while now, there's been noticeable progress in Palestine's government in the West Bank (however problems it may be otherwise) reigning in attacks on Israel proper, by any measure or standard.

And the illegal settlements? Did it affect them (their persistent, unabated growth) in any way? NO.

This proves, for any individual still capable of rational thought that this isn't about "terror and violence" and so on. More like about (illegal) acquisition of real estate.

No, by all visible signs, reduction of violence did not cause that "recognition by Israel" and other wonderful stuff, as advertised and never delivered. Not now and not for a while. Time to quit waiting for a miracle from a tired, chewed over and again pseudo process, and just do what makes sense. In any rational mind and by any rational measure.

[Bob]

No, that isn't what I said.. not in the state of affairs as anybody with unobscured view can see it for themselves. For a while now, there's been noticeable progress in Palestine's government in the West Bank (however problems it may be otherwise) reigning in attacks on Israel proper, by any measure or standard.

And the illegal settlements? Did it affect them (their persistent, unabated growth) in any way? NO.

This proves, for any individual still capable of rational thought that this isn't about "terror and violence" and so on. More like about (illegal) acquisition of real estate.

No, by all visible signs, reduction of violence did not cause that "recognition by Israel" and other wonderful stuff, as advertised and never delivered. Not now and not for a while. Time to quit waiting for a miracle from a tired, chewed over and again pseudo process, and just do what makes sense. In any rational mind and by any rational measure.

What reduction in violence are you talking about? Jews are still being murdered because they're Jewish. Just because you don't read the news doesn't mean these things aren't happening. The threats we face are still huge, and any temporary reduction in violence is certainly not attributable to the PA's efforts in any significant manner. Slowly but surely, we are sealing them off from us through the security barrier. That alone has been the most successful tool in recent years to curb terrorism from within.

I won't even get into the major threats we face through collusion between Palestinian terrorists in Judea and Samaria with their allies in Lebanon, Gaza, Syria, Iran, and other Arab-Muslim countries.

You speak of these "settlements" as if they are isolated communities that can simply be "stopped". Of course they grow, there are people living there and families that have children. This is normal. What you also don't understand is that the vast majority of these "settlements" are parts of Jerusalem. Just because they are beyond ceasefire lines established 60 years ago doesn't mean they're not integral parts of our communities. When doing urban planning on a hillside or in a valley, you think we're going to stop along some ceasefire line and make urban planning even more of a nightmare than it already is in Jerusalem? This isn't the Ottawa-Valley, it's difficult to build here, and Jerusalem is a growing city with massive shortages of land available for development. There's already a housing crisis in here, and we're not going to make it worse because some Arabs say these hills belong to them.

It's ridiculous to listen to people like you, thousands of miles away, speak about these "settlements" so passionately. You couldn't even name two settlements, let alone understand how integrated and essential they are to Jerusalem and our Jewish communities.

[myata]

What reduction in violence are you talking about? Jews are still being murdered because they're Jewish. Just because you don't read the news doesn't mean these things aren't happening. The threats we face are still huge, and any temporary reduction in violence is certainly not attributable to the PA's efforts in any significant manner. Slowly but surely, we are sealing them off from us through the security barrier. That alone has been the most successful tool in recent years to curb terrorism from within.

We'll just have to go with the numbers. Of attacks, from Palestinian West Bank against Israel proper, during say, last 2 years in which this old new "process" has been pushed forward, against the growth of settlements in that same period. The latter cannot be qualified as anything short of massive. We had evidence posted here of multi-thousand expansion projects in a course of a single year. For whatever reason terror is subsiding, it's one less justfication for ongoing and in some cases, accelerating expansion of illegal settlements.

You speak of these "settlements" as if they are isolated communities that can simply be "stopped". Of course they grow, there are people living there and families that have children. This is normal. What you also don't understand is that the vast majority of these "settlements" are parts of Jerusalem. Just because they are beyond ceasefire lines established 60 years ago doesn't mean they're not integral parts of our communities. When doing urban planning on a hillside or in a valley, you think we're going to stop along some ceasefire line and make urban planning even more of a nightmare than it already is in Jerusalem? This isn't the Ottawa-Valley, it's difficult to build here, and Jerusalem is a growing city with massive shortages of land available for development. There's already a housing crisis in here, and we're not going to make it worse because some Arabs say these hills belong to them.

No they don't have to be "built there" because it's illegal under international law. They were illegal from the start, and any expansion of them is illegal just as much as the initial violation. This land does not belong to Israel, so it can only settle and build it as a token and clear statement of aggression. I can't imagine how anybody in their right mind could negotiate with somebody who would openly continue acts of aggression even as negotiations were supposed to proceed in good faith.

[GostHacked]

You speak of these "settlements" as if they are isolated communities that can simply be "stopped". Of course they grow, there are people living there and families that have children. This is normal. What you also don't understand is that the vast majority of these "settlements" are parts of Jerusalem. Just because they are beyond ceasefire lines established 60 years ago doesn't mean they're not integral parts of our communities. When doing urban planning on a hillside or in a valley, you think we're going to stop along some ceasefire line and make urban planning even more of a nightmare than it already is in Jerusalem? This isn't the Ottawa-Valley, it's difficult to build here, and Jerusalem is a growing city with massive shortages of land available for development. There's already a housing crisis in here, and we're not going to make it worse because some Arabs say these hills belong to them.

It's ridiculous to listen to people like you, thousands of miles away, speak about these "settlements" so passionately. You couldn't even name two settlements, let alone understand how integrated and essential they are to Jerusalem and our Jewish communities.

Maybe you should move back to Canada were it is safer. It's a little cold here in Ottawa, but it beats living among the terrorists.

[Bob]

We'll just have to go with the numbers. Of attacks, from Palestinian West Bank against Israel proper, during say, last 2 years in which this old new "process" has been pushed forward, against the growth of settlements in that same period. The latter cannot be qualified as anything short of massive. We had evidence posted here of multi-thousand expansion projects in a course of a single year. For whatever reason terror is subsiding, it's one less justfication for ongoing and in some cases, accelerating expansion of illegal settlements.

Yes, "massive expansion". It's not massive enough - housing costs are still way too high in Jerusalem! These "settlements" are integral parts of Jerusalem, and do not belong to the Arabs simply because the Jordanians occupied it for about twenty years. Moreover, if you actually understood the geography of Jerusalem, you'd realize that Jerusalem would be suffocated if its developments were restricted to the cease-fire lines. Lastly, don't think that the 1949 armistice lines were determined in the best interests of Jerusalem - they're merely the truce lines drawn after the war. They're unworkable, indefensible, and unacceptable. You can sit behind your keyboard and complain until your fingers bleed, and we will keep building as is necessary in our capital, regardless of what anti-Semitic and ignorant bureaucrats say in order to pander to Arab and Muslim interests.

No they don't have to be "built there" because it's illegal under international law. They were illegal from the start, and any expansion of them is illegal just as much as the initial violation. This land does not belong to Israel, so it can only settle and build it as a token and clear statement of aggression. I can't imagine how anybody in their right mind could negotiate with somebody who would openly continue acts of aggression even as negotiations were supposed to proceed in good faith.

"International law", eh? Sounds interesting. If Jerusalem doesn't belong to us, who does it belong to? You think we're gonna strangle our city in order to comply with "international law"? Think again.

Yes, yes... how aggressive we are building apartments, homes, roads, schools, police stations, businesses, medical clinics in order to address our municipal and national needs. How aggressive we are building across ceasefire lines drawn in 1949. Let me guess, the Old City is also occupied territory?

Perhaps you're right... the Palestinians should boycott negotiations on "principle". Oh wait, they have.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Bob

[myata]

Well, if you follow that path (do what we must/want/do with no regard for law, justice, rights of other people) you'll certainly become confirmed and acknowledged aggressor universally in the world. Not that things are too far away from that point, as they stand now.