Nfld Wants More Federal Money...

[August1991]

You can put Levesque and every Quebec premier after him in the Williams/Smallwood - Mugabe Chavez comparison.

That is the perception in English Canada. In fact, Levesque was never popular in Quebec, nor was Trudeau. Charest's popularity now is typical of most Quebec leaders.

But Blueblood, yours (and English-Canada's) view of Quebec politics is not invalid. Duplessis, for example, acted as an autocrat. Yet, Duplessis was contested by many intellectuals in Quebec, including Trudeau and Levesque.

----

Now then, what does this have to do with Newfoundland, Joey Smallwood or Danny Williams?

Edited December 4, 2010 by August1991

[blueblood]

That is the perception in English Canada. In fact, Levesque was never popular in Quebec, nor was Trudeau. Charest's popularity now is typical of most Quebec leaders.

But Blueblood, yours (and English-Canada's) view of Quebec politics is not invalid. Duplessis, for example, acted as an autocrat. Yet, Duplessis was contested by many intellectuals in Quebec, including Trudeau and Levesque.

----

Now then, what does this have to do with Newfoundland, Joey Smallwood or Danny Williams?

I'm going to enjoy this...

Your synopsis of Williams and Smallwood is fairly accurate. They made some dumb business moves in order to pander to their province's population, such as the Abitibi Bowater controversy, and trying to gouge oil companies for access to NFLD oil to name a few.

Quebec Premiers since Levesque have made completely proposterous business moves. The nonsense with NFLD and their hydro, the draconian language laws, out of control social spending resulting in a potential 45 billion dollar deficit in 2030, and my favorite sky high taxes (which by the way ties in mine and smallc's little tax discussion in this thread to how the Quebec gov't is run by incompetant fools).

To trash Williams and Smallwood is quite a stretch when Quebec is run by people who would have difficulty running a hamburger stand. And then you stated that Canada becomes richer through compromise and not engaging in foolish disputes. And to top it off, you drop the hammer by stating if Williams or Smallwood ran the country, we would be poor. Judging by Quebec's very similar actions to Smallwood and Williams, I would say they have everything to do with Danny Williams and Joey Smallwood, and Quebec's 45 billion dollar deficit in 2030 due to their Chavez like actions proves your statement about how people who compromise and don't engage in foolish disputes are richer.

[August1991]

Gilles Duceppe said Conservative leader Stephen Harper's kind words for the $6.2-billion Lower Churchill River hydroelectric development in Labrador as "a direct slap in the face to Quebec."

"He wants to win the hearts of Newfoundlanders with the money of Quebecers," Duceppe told reporters.

As Canadian taxpayers, Quebecers would pay part of whatever amount Harper offers Newfoundland, Duceppe reasoned.

The Gazette

However you slice this, Duceppe is right.

I wonder why Harper didn't arrange a deal between Quebec and Newfoundland to transmit the electricity through Quebec. Why is the federal government wasting money on a loan guarantee for a project that is unnecessary?

----

Harper wants three or four seats in Nfld. These seats will come at great cost to other Canadians. Is Harper good at math? Is he a good economist? IMV, the Newfoundland seats could have been bought at a much lower price.

Then again, maybe Harper has a better way of calculating...

Edited April 1, 2011 by August1991

[Smallc]

I wonder why Harper didn't arrange a deal between Quebec and Newfoundland to transmit the electricity through Quebec. Why is the federal government wasting money on a loan guarantee for a project that is unnecessary?

The loan guarantee will cost virtually nothing (if anything), and Quebec doesn't always need to get its way. It's time some Quebecers grew up and started to realize that they are part of a federation. It isn't all about them.

[TimG]

I wonder why Harper didn't arrange a deal between Quebec and Newfoundland to transmit the electricity through Quebec.

Because Quebec Hydro refused to negotiate in good faith because it believed it has a monopoly on NF hydro. This deal gives NF choices. The bad blood over the existing deal does not help. One thing many businesses do is re-negotiate contracts when they are not legally compelled to because they want to maintain good relations with the customer. Quebec Hydro refused to re-negotiate and claimed a 'deal is a deal'. They should not be surprised to find that NF took it business else where the second it had a chance.

[Wild Bill]

However you slice this, Duceppe is right.

I wonder why Harper didn't arrange a deal between Quebec and Newfoundland to transmit the electricity through Quebec. Why is the federal government wasting money on a loan guarantee for a project that is unnecessary?

----

I think there's a deeper problem here, August. For decades now, Quebec has benefited from policies of "appeasement". The Liberals and now the Tories have wanted as many Quebec seats as possible so they have often given Quebec more than they might have given another province. It hasn't been as bad as some have made out but it still has happened and like it or not, in TROC that IS the prevailing perception!

You can debate if it's true till the cows come home but it doesn't matter. That's the way it IS!

Now, Harper has put a lot of work during his term into wooing Quebec. Where has it gotten him? Essentially, nowhere. It would appear that he has even LESS chance at winning more Quebec seats than when he started!

It's only to be expected that there would come a day when some party leader would say "Why bother? Is it worth it?"

Perhaps this is a turning point. Quebec has played the game too long and too hard and now is in danger of not having anyone to play with!

Harper obviously felt that he had a better chance at winning up to 7 seats in Newfoundland than he did in Quebec! If that is true, it only makes sense to ignore Quebec. Besides, supporting Newfoundland on this power project also appeals to Nova Scotia and PEI. Duceppe's indignation might actually HELP with winning seats in other parts of Canada! There have been mutterings here in Ontario, where there are a lot of people who have lost their manufacturing job and can't even find one as a greeter for WalMart, that Quebec gets an unfair share by using the lure of a seat count carrot that the donkey can never reach while threatening to separate.

If I were Harper I would have done the same thing, August! Quebec has been the Lucy with Charlie Brown's football. Looks like some Charlie has finally said "Screw you, Lucy! It's just not worth playing with you!"

If Quebecers want Harper to believe that they will give him some seats they have to DO it once in a while!

Jam yesterday and jam tomorrow but never jam today!

Edited April 1, 2011 by Wild Bill

[Scotty]

The Gazette

However you slice this, Duceppe is right.

The way I slice it, Duceppe is a whiny, sniveling, sulky boy complaining because his brother got a toy he didn't. That's understandable when the two children are six. It's pretty bloody silly when one is nine and the other is twenty four. And it's the older one complaining!

It's impossible to count the ways Quebec's economy has been subsidized by the feds. If Harper had said no to a simple loan guarantee it would have pissed off not only Newfoundland but Atlantic Canada. And for what? Because Quebec, which screwed Newfoundland out of Churchill Falls, feels selling Hydro to the Americans is somehow their monopoly?

And I like how he's complaining that Quebec money will be going into it! As if Quebec isn't a net drain on the federal treasury! Here's a news flash Quebecers: Once you subtract out what the feds pay you, you don't PAY any taxes!

[Wild Bill]

The way I slice it, Duceppe is a whiny, sniveling, sulky boy complaining because his brother got a toy he didn't. That's understandable when the two children are six. It's pretty bloody silly when one is nine and the other is twenty four. And it's the older one complaining!

It's impossible to count the ways Quebec's economy has been subsidized by the feds. If Harper had said no to a simple loan guarantee it would have pissed off not only Newfoundland but Atlantic Canada. And for what? Because Quebec, which screwed Newfoundland out of Churchill Falls, feels selling Hydro to the Americans is somehow their monopoly?

And I like how he's complaining that Quebec money will be going into it! As if Quebec isn't a net drain on the federal treasury! Here's a news flash Quebecers: Once you subtract out what the feds pay you, you don't PAY any taxes!

Your post proves my point about how this issue will play in TROC, Scotty! What's interesting is how quickly Duceppe has seized the issue. He's playing to Quebecers, hoping it will bring him even more seats. It might, but it's starting to look like it will be harder and harder for the Bloc to squeeze concessions out of Ottawa. If the Liberal strategists also decide that Quebec has nothing to offer them then Quebecers will find their option suddenly much more defined. It will be separation or federalism, but NOT separation as a lever for more pork!

There's a popular attitude amongst TROC for some "tough love" towards Quebec. Not to have Quebec separate but just not to be "used" by Quebec over the issue. As long as Quebec was still giving federalist parties a reasonable number of seats those parties were not going to acknowledge those sentiments. They want the seats!

For the first time, with the drop in Liberal fortunes and the meagre gains of the Tories Quebec is essentially giving the federalist parties NOTHING! Or at least, not much for all the money and effort!

If Quebec were to give Harper even 5 MORE seats this election watch how fast his attitude would change! Quebec would become important to his attaining and maintaining his majority!

Politicians are like cats. They will ignore you unless you wave a treat under their nose, in which case they will follow you anywhere!

[Scotty]

For the first time, with the drop in Liberal fortunes and the meagre gains of the Tories Quebec is essentially giving the federalist parties NOTHING! Or at least, not much for all the money and effort!

I wouldn't agree on 'nothing' but let's face it, Quebec's influence was in having 75 seats potentially up for grabs. That's no longer the case. In all likelihood, in most elections now, you don't have more than 30 seats up for grabs, at most. And many of them, at least for the Liberals, are solid anyway. So what's at stake? A dozen seats? Are you going to piss off BC, which has 36 seats up for grabs to please Quebec now? Even Atlantic Canada has a lot more seats up for grabs than Quebec. Quebec has reduced its importance. The longer it insists on parking the great majority of seats with the Bloc for election after election, the less hope the federalist parties will have of prying those seats lose with various forms of bribery, and, consequently, the less effort they will put into trying to do so.

Edited April 1, 2011 by Scotty

[Bonam]

I wouldn't agree on 'nothing' but let's face it, Quebec's influence was in having 75 seats potentially up for grabs. That's no longer the case. In all likelihood, in most elections now, you don't have more than 30 seats up for grabs, at most. And many of them, at least for the Liberals, are solid anyway. So what's at stake? A dozen seats? Are you going to piss off BC, which has 36 seats up for grabs to please Quebec now? Even Atlantic Canada has a lot more seats up for grabs than Quebec. Quebec has reduced its importance. The longer it insists on parking the great majority of seats with the Bloc for election after election, the less hope the federalist parties will have of prying those seats lose with various forms of bribery, and, consequently, the less effort they will put into trying to do so.

You are ignoring the other side of it, that Quebec gets about 50 MPs whose only goal in Parliament is to look after Quebec's interests. That is a whole lot more influence than they would have by voting in any federalist party, especially in a minority government situation.

[Scotty]

You are ignoring the other side of it, that Quebec gets about 50 MPs whose only goal in Parliament is to look after Quebec's interests. That is a whole lot more influence than they would have by voting in any federalist party, especially in a minority government situation.

I disagree. They have 'some' influence in a minority government, but not nearly as much as if those MPs were in the governing party. Quebec, during Mulroney and Trudeau's time had sixty to seventy government MPs. Now the most they'll have is a dozen or so. And again, since the majority of their seats are going to the BQ that means less reason for the real parties, the ones that might take power to woo Quebec with all sorts of promises and bribes. So far Ignatieff is the only one who's offered Quebec any bribes, that being the hockey arena in Quebec city.

[Battletoads]

Good move by Harper. Anything he can do to allow Canadians to bypass quebec win him points in my book.

[kimmy]

I wonder why Harper didn't arrange a deal between Quebec and Newfoundland to transmit the electricity through Quebec. Why is the federal government wasting money on a loan guarantee for a project that is unnecessary?

"Desole! We do not 'ave de capacity to transmit de Newfonlan power to de Etas Unis. But maybe if de Federal gobermin' give us de large money it take to upgrade de Quebec grid, maybe we 'elp de Newfie export de Churchill electricity for de very modest fee..."

-k