Natives have right too says Canada

[charter.rights]

Well, first of all I don't think it's a good idea to segregate aboriginals and place them on reservations. They should live among other Canadians just like the rest of us do. Go to public schools, get and education, and succeed. If they wish to, they can preserve their culture on their own as many other cultures in Canada have done and continue to do. It's not easy, but it's doable. It's also a far better idea than this segregation and life-support system where they are removed from most of the Canadian population and most opportunities.

As far as nationhood goes, you clearly have some problems grasping that concept. There is nothing insulting to any nation by bringing to attention the commonalities among members of subcultures in Canada that are compatible with nationhood. From a personal perspective, as much as I am a part of the Canadian nation, I am also part of the Jewish nation. Many people, like myself, have multifaceted identities. Aboriginals can do the same, and although I don't want to speak on their behalf, I think they would benefit from doing the same.

Do you hold an Israeli passport?

Edited November 14, 2010 by charter.rights

[Bob]

Charter Rights, you sometimes let your romanticized view of Aboriginal people get in the way of reality. The early settlers may have used some of the aboriginal farming and hunting/gathering practices initially, but they quickly realized that they could transfer the agricultural techniques of Europe to Canada; this yielded far better results than what the natives were seeing. Aboriginals had not domesticated any animals other than dogs; when the Europeans arrived with domesticated cows, horses, sheep, pigs, and chickens, Aboriginals saw the value of raising animals for food rather than relying on hunting alone.

Watch Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies. Or even better, read the book. It is a fascinating look at the global environmental forces that influenced which groups would become colonizers, and which would become colonized (or eliminated). He takes race out of the equation right from the beginning, and simply looks at the environments different people found themselves in.

Great book, and decent movie.

Charter.rights - I will have an Israeli passport inside of a year. I am a citizen of Israel, though.

[Shwa]

When I recommended integration, did you seriously think I wanted to put them into schools that would abuse them and strip them of their culture? There are appropriate ways to integrate people where they become a part of Canada while preserving their culture. It's a difficult balancing act but it's done all the time.

Well, in all fairness Bob, I did ask you for other ideas. What you are saying is remove Aboriginal children from their rural communities to teach them to become successful in modern Canada - like what happened to you. What do you think a residential school is? It was "residential" because the kids lived there, like a boarding school. To be successful in mainstream Canada, you had to speak French or English, not some arcahic language like Cree or Ojibway right?

So what part of their Aboriginal culture has to go to make them "Canadian?"

Why am I sharing this story? Because it is just one story among million demonstrating that one can successfully integrate into Canadian culture while preserving one's way of life. Of course sacrifices have to made, compromises here and there, but nobody said it would be easy. This is the integration I'm talking about. Natives can do this, as well. What's so hard to understand about that?

Aboriginals aren't immigrants.

[Bob]

Well, in all fairness Bob, I did ask you for other ideas. What you are saying is remove Aboriginal children from their rural communities to teach them to become successful in modern Canada - like what happened to you. What do you think a residential school is? It was "residential" because the kids lived there, like a boarding school. To be successful in mainstream Canada, you had to speak French or English, not some arcahic language like Cree or Ojibway right?

So what part of their Aboriginal culture has to go to make them "Canadian?"

Aboriginals aren't immigrants.

They can attend public schools or establish private schools (like many other minorities do) which adhere to basic fundamentals (math, science, English, etc) while also teaching them about things that are important and unique to them (their own language<s>, religion/faith, personal history, etc). If they go to public schools, they can have cultural development outside of their schools such as evening and weekend classes and workshops. Many cultures already do this, from my Christian friends telling me about Sunday school to learn about their bible, or my Muslim friends who studied Arabic at home with their families or in special classes, or my Indian friends who rent Bollywood movies and buy garam masala seasoning at local East-Asian stores. Please tell me you understand this, now, as I feel like I've repeated these ideas many times already. How is this not an acceptable and ideal solution? It balances cultural needs to preservation and development while also providing the skills and education necessary to find meaningful employment in contemporary Canada.

Whether or not they are immigrants isn't really relevant to me.

[CANADIEN]

Well, first of all I don't think it's a good idea to segregate aboriginals and place them on reservations. They should live among other Canadians just like the rest of us do. Go to public schools, get and education, and succeed. If they wish to, they can preserve their culture on their own as many other cultures in Canada have done and continue to do. It's not easy, but it's doable. It's also a far better idea than this segregation and life-support system where they are removed from most of the Canadian population and most opportunities.

As far as nationhood goes, you clearly have some problems grasping that concept. There is nothing insulting to any nation by bringing to attention the commonalities among members of subcultures in Canada that are compatible with nationhood. From a personal perspective, as much as I am a part of the Canadian nation, I am also part of the Jewish nation. Many people, like myself, have multifaceted identities. Aboriginals can do the same, and although I don't want to speak on their behalf, I think they would benefit from doing the same.

The problem is grasping the concept of nations is yours. At least now you recognize that there is a Jewish Nation, but not a Canadian-Jewish Nation.

Aboriginals in Canada belong to their own individual nations within Canada. Those nations do not exist anywhere else in the world (except when they exist across international borders, like the Inuit). Because some individuals identify themselves as Jews, Italians, Chinese, they are members of the Jewish, Italian ancd Chinese nations living in Canada and who are Canadians, and our country is all the better for what they bring to it. But then that part of their identity is linked to a nation that is outside Canada. The Aboriginal nations are not outside Canada (at least, not outside of its borders).

To put it another way. If the Albanian culture disappeared from Canada tomorrow, it would still exist in its own land, Albania (and elsewhere). The language would still exist, the nation would still exist. According to the UNESCO, 88 Aboriginal languages in this country are on the brink of extinction, and once they are gone these nations will be gone.

It is very easy to say "you can keep your own culture and your own nationhood within Canada" when denying that there are Aboriginal nations to start with.

[charter.rights]

Charter Rights, you sometimes let your romanticized view of Aboriginal people get in the way of reality. The early settlers may have used some of the aboriginal farming and hunting/gathering practices initially, but they quickly realized that they could transfer the agricultural techniques of Europe to Canada; this yielded far better results than what the natives were seeing. Aboriginals had not domesticated any animals other than dogs; when the Europeans arrived with domesticated cows, horses, sheep, pigs, and chickens, Aboriginals saw the value of raising animals for food rather than relying on hunting alone.

Watch Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies. Or even better, read the book. It is a fascinating look at the global environmental forces that influenced which groups would become colonizers, and which would become colonized (or eliminated). He takes race out of the equation right from the beginning, and simply looks at the environments different people found themselves in.

You have succumbed to the romanticized colonialism, not the other way around with me.

Mechanization is not more efficient than manual labour. One can argue that the energy consumed in manufactured farming versus traditional pre-contact farming methods is actually more when you consider the energy used in the manufacture, transportation and maintenance of the equipment on top of the farmers labour that goes into it, wile also considering the energy used to get those goods to a greater mass market.

Many farmers are going back to the no-till methods, which is much more efficient than till farming, requires less fertilizer (energy) and takes less time (less energy). The no-till methods, and companion planting come from early Iroquoian farming practice.

Native peoples for the most part did not have to domestic animals for food, which in the old world is responsible for many of the world's deserts and barren lands. Rather they harvest animals by cultivating the environment conducive to increased food sources and created places where animals flourished.

An old native guy I met once said he didn't need to go hunting. He just sat on his porch in the fall with a cross bow and waited until the deer came up to his apple trees to feed. In my travels I have found many such apple trees in forested areas that no doubt were used for the same purpose.

[CANADIEN]

Well, in all fairness Bob, I did ask you for other ideas. What you are saying is remove Aboriginal children from their rural communities to teach them to become successful in modern Canada - like what happened to you. What do you think a residential school is? It was "residential" because the kids lived there, like a boarding school. To be successful in mainstream Canada, you had to speak French or English, not some arcahic language like Cree or Ojibway right?

To be fair, he is not suggesting a return to residential schools.

Aboriginals aren't immigrants.

Neither is anyone born in this country.

[Shwa]

Charter Rights, you sometimes let your romanticized view of Aboriginal people get in the way of reality. The early settlers may have used some of the aboriginal farming and hunting/gathering practices initially, but they quickly realized that they could transfer the agricultural techniques of Europe to Canada; this yielded far better results than what the natives were seeing. Aboriginals had not domesticated any animals other than dogs; when the Europeans arrived with domesticated cows, horses, sheep, pigs, and chickens, Aboriginals saw the value of raising animals for food rather than relying on hunting alone.

Watch Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies. Or even better, read the book. It is a fascinating look at the global environmental forces that influenced which groups would become colonizers, and which would become colonized (or eliminated). He takes race out of the equation right from the beginning, and simply looks at the environments different people found themselves in.

Hey Mel, now prove to me that Jared Diamond had no bias whenhe wrote that book.

For example, does he extrapolate the fact that there was no need for animal domestication in North American due to abundance and management of that abundance through key cultural practices and that it was only through the devastation and depopulation of un-checked disease that Aboriginals came to see the "value of raising animals?"

What realistic weight does Diamond assess to the former compared to the latter?

The same attitude can be applied to Aboriginal horticultural and agricultural practices. While I don't think we can debate the superior utility of iron farming implements, we can debate the attitude of statis in Aboriginal farming techniques by way of maize and potatoes. It was only after most Aboriginal farming communities were demolished that any sort of high yield progress was made with the modern improvements to those two staples.

[Bob]

Look folks, it's nice speaking with you all. I'll try to be back later. Bye for now.

CANADIEN - I will address you valid point about homes existing for these subculture nations living within Canada later. I recognize that for many of these Aboriginal nations the perseverance of their cultures is an existential issue, as their numbers are dwindling and perhaps many of them are assimilating. Still, these responsibilities lie in the hands of the members of the culture. Perhaps Canada can give some monetary support, but the preservation of culture primarily rests on the shoulders of the culture itself. As a Jewish Canadian living in Israel, the need for a homeland for a nation strongly resonates with me. Still, it is a difficult proposition for Canada to carve out pieces to be given as autonomous states within Canada. I think there are superior solutions along the lines of integration I was talking about, earlier.

Again, bye for now.

[Shwa]

To be fair, he is not suggesting a return to residential schools.

TBD - but there is a sort of irony that in the absence of other ideas he illustrates his point with a story about his highly positive experience with Canadian schools. I mean, seriously.

Neither is anyone born in this country.

No, but his parents were, which goes to show the contrast of the urban immigrant reality compared to the Aboriginal reality in whatever time period he was raised in doesn't it?

Edited November 14, 2010 by Shwa

[charter.rights]

Look folks, it's nice speaking with you all. I'll try to be back later. Bye for now.

CANADIEN - I will address you valid point about homes existing for these subculture nations living within Canada later. I recognize that for many of these Aboriginal nations the perseverance of their cultures is an existential issue, as their numbers are dwindling and perhaps many of them are assimilating. Still, these responsibilities lie in the hands of the members of the culture. Perhaps Canada can give some monetary support, but the preservation of culture primarily rests on the shoulders of the culture itself. As a Jewish Canadian living in Israel, the need for a homeland for a nation strongly resonates with me. Still, it is a difficult proposition for Canada to carve out pieces to be given as autonomous states within Canada. I think there are superior solutions along the lines of integration I was talking about, earlier.

Again, bye for now.

See you Gary.

[Bob]

TBD - but there is a sort of irony that in the absence of other ideas he illustrates his point with a story about his highly positive experience with Canadian schools. I mean, seriously.

Why are you unable to differentiate between mainstream Canadian public schools (I went to a private Jewish elementary school) and the special schools that were designed for Natives? They're not one-in-the-same. The distinction is crucial, and I'm not sure why you're blurring it.

No, but his parents were, which goes to show the contrast of the urban immigrant reality compared to the Aboriginal reality in whatever time period he was raised in doesn't it?

That's exactly what I'm saying. Why don't we encourage Aboriginals to do the same as other minorities in Canada, where they integrate while making reasonable efforts towards the preservation their culture. Certainly some things have to go, such as the nomadic lifestyle. Don't you agree that Natives can enjoy a modernized contemporary version of their cultures that are compatible with contemporary Canada, just as many other cultures are currently doing? Nobody said it's easy, but it's the ideal balance between maintaining old ways, traditions, cultures, faiths, and heritages while integrating successfully and being a valuable part of the Canadian social fabric.

Clearly current and past policies were flawed, as well as the choices and selections of the these Natives and their leadership. To accept a somewhat segregationist policy where they are far removed from the heart of Canadian society, on remote reservations, with sub-par education and opportunities, is simply wrong. Both Canada and the Aboriginals should've moved towards a policy of REAL integration. Is what I'm saying that hard to understand?

I am not supporting to policies of old, nor am I advocating for further or deepened segregation. Integration is the way, as many other cultures have done it and certainly Aboriginals can, too.

[Bob]

Hey Mel, now prove to me that Jared Diamond had no bias whenhe wrote that book.

For example, does he extrapolate the fact that there was no need for animal domestication in North American due to abundance and management of that abundance through key cultural practices and that it was only through the devastation and depopulation of un-checked disease that Aboriginals came to see the "value of raising animals?"

What realistic weight does Diamond assess to the former compared to the latter?

The same attitude can be applied to Aboriginal horticultural and agricultural practices. While I don't think we can debate the superior utility of iron farming implements, we can debate the attitude of statis in Aboriginal farming techniques by way of maize and potatoes. It was only after most Aboriginal farming communities were demolished that any sort of high yield progress was made with the modern improvements to those two staples.

You seem to be advancing the false notion that the Natives lived in harmony and balance with nature. They were (and I am not faulting them for this) decimating wildlife and driving some species towards extinction. Don't think for a second that they were the historical parallels of the blue creatures in the movie "Avatar".

If I recall correctly, in GGaS, Jared Diamond mentions these realities. If you haven't already read the book, I'd highly recommend it. And if anything, Jared Diamond is somewhat biased in favour of what some of you would describe as "indigenous populations".

[charter.rights]

and the UN Declaration on Indigenous Rights.

[Shady]

This part is really bizarre.

1. Indigenous individuals have the rights to life, physical and mental integrity

You have to wonder what in the world people were thinking when they wrote this tripe.

[charter.rights]

This part is really bizarre.

You have to wonder what in the world people were thinking when they wrote this tripe.

They were no doubt remembering Residential Schools and the cultural genocide perpetrated against First Nation children, which attempted to brainwash, destroy their culture and abuse their bodies to effect their mission.

[Shady]

They were no doubt remembering Residential Schools and the cultural genocide perpetrated against First Nation children, which attempted to brainwash, destroy their culture and abuse their bodies to effect their mission.

That's already covered in having the rights to freedom and liberty. So-called physical and mental integrity makes no sense.

[Melanie_]

Sorry for causing the thread drift...

Shwa, Diamond's book is pretty balanced, in my view. He doesn't seem to favour any culture over another (except perhaps the hunter-gatherers of New Guinea, who he spent 30 years with). It's a pretty academic read, mostly tracing how certain cultures came to have certain food crops, animal domestication, diseases, and technology, while other cultures didn't. He then goes on to show how those cultures were able to use those tools to their advantage when they came into contact with cultures without them. It doesn't say the cultures weren't working fine as they were, but rather that when the clash came, and one eventually came to dominate the other, there were factors at play that had nothing to do with race, and everything to do with the environment.

Charter Rights, if you're story about the old man shooting game from his front door step isn't a romanticized version of the past, I don't know what is!!!

[charter.rights]

That's already covered in having the rights to freedom and liberty. So-called physical and mental integrity makes no sense.

No, it is very specific about protecting against acculturation and assimilation policies being imposed upon indigenous peoples.

[charter.rights]

Sorry for causing the thread drift...

Shwa, Diamond's book is pretty balanced, in my view. He doesn't seem to favour any culture over another (except perhaps the hunter-gatherers of New Guinea, who he spent 30 years with). It's a pretty academic read, mostly tracing how certain cultures came to have certain food crops, animal domestication, diseases, and technology, while other cultures didn't. He then goes on to show how those cultures were able to use those tools to their advantage when they came into contact with cultures without them. It doesn't say the cultures weren't working fine as they were, but rather that when the clash came, and one eventually came to dominate the other, there were factors at play that had nothing to do with race, and everything to do with the environment.

Charter Rights, if you're story about the old man shooting game from his front door step isn't a romanticized version of the past, I don't know what is!!!

It is very current.

However, the history of many an Elder tells a similar story. The very act of moving Haudenosaunee villages, mass deforestation and land clearing for farming invited game into the vicinity of Six Nations villages. As lands were deforested, the understorey grew. As hundreds of acres of corn were planted, game were attracted to it. As fruit trees and fruit plants were cultivated it provided ideal conditions under which not only the Six Nations prospered but the animals they hunted as well. It isn't romanticized at all. It is well known fact repeated in the early historical (prior to the Family Compact destruction of and altering of) texts...

You must also consider that agricultural societies like the Six Nations were not dependent on game. It was only a supplement to their primary food sources. Fish, muskrat and even clams along with their corn, beans and squash were main staples. Deer, moose, caribou and elk were occasional and so there was no real pressure against their populations.

[CANADIEN]

No, it is very specific about protecting against acculturation and assimilation policies being imposed upon indigenous peoples.

Rather, it has to do with individual protection from physical and mental harm (torture comes to mind)

[Shady]

Rather, it has to do with individual protection from physical and mental harm (torture comes to mind)

Is that a special right other Canadians don't get?

[Jack Weber]

Is that a special right other Canadians don't get?

I agree...

You cause us all mental harm just from reading your "award winning" posts...

We should be protected from this scourge of goofyness....

[charter.rights]

Is that a special right other Canadians don't get?

It is not a recognized right in Canada, and as a declaration the Prime Minister has agreed that it should be.

[William Ashley]

Is that a special right other Canadians don't get?

If you are deemed mentally incompetent by a doctor they can drug you against your will pending a court hearing - some of these drugs cause you to go into spasms and cause your knees to separate. Basically your knees (the upper and lower parts of the joints) grind over top of each other as a drug induced racking.

This is outside the courts, all it requires is a doctor under the mental health act of Ontario to do this.

This is one of the extrajudicial methods of torture in Canada - the same methods the KGB used in Russia to silence dissidents, so I have read, I however do not have a trusted source in regard to Russia and KGB practices only articles. The Canadian situation is verifiable and has been verified.

Conditions have people handcuffed and strapped to hospital beds in locked rooms, and injected drugs against their wishes.

This is what has actually happened in Ontario - without access to the courts, already under the influence of drugs that impair regular mental function and cause deterioration of physical health.

Even though people are on the books as being in custody of correctional facilities in somecases (where they have the right to refuse forced druggings, in certain types of facilities not all...), they are still housed in hospitals and drugged and withheld from the court process.

This happens even if people do not agree to have their rights removed, they are tortured regardless of their verbal or physical resistance.

These are acceptable and used practices in Ontario, Canada.

Edited November 14, 2010 by William Ashley