Ottawa to Close 4 Embassies in Africa

[punked]

So you see absolutely NO need for diplomatic representation in Africa?

Not what I said. I said if the decision is between having an embassy in an African country where we can't do business or am Asian where we can I pick the Asian one.

In tough times with record deficits you don't get to spend more money decisions should cut costs, be revenue neutral or bring in more money. I think this decision will be the later. Now could we find the money somewhere else? Yes I think we could however I don't think if it was a Liberal government we would. I think the NDP would and I think the Conservatives are doing what they would do. However I think the Liberals would just spend more money and I think that is the worse of all three options. Find the money, cut the embassy, or spend more money we don't have that is what we are talking about.

[punked]

Neither you or I are Liberal or NDP policy makers. It was a suggestion off the top of my head and not a policy proposal. I'm flattered that you think I hold such sway within the party that what I'm saying is.

As for the NDP giving the how, I've never actually heard a solid policy proposal from anyone representing the NDP here.

There are plenty of them you might just need to go over the NDP website to find them. They have what and I know as a Liberal this might shock you because your party promised one over a year and half ago but a platform.

It includes getting out of Afghanistan.

A roll back or freezing of large corporate tax cuts while at the same time cutting the small business tax to 1%.

A real environmental policy, and integrated energy policy.

Cut to taxes on home heating oil. ECT

To mention a few. You might want to check it out although it is 45 pages long but there are plenty of positions unlike the Liberals who say one thing one day and a different thing the next.

[Alta4ever]

Oh, I know the risks of doing business in Nigeria. It's a pretty hairy area. Yet, no matter what you say in terms of risk, we still do business there.

We, we who? What Multinational Company's Corporate Board of Directors, do you currently sit on? Do you own voting shares where you personally vote at the AGM of that company that does business in Nigeria?

[nicky10013]

Not what I said. I said if the decision is between having an embassy in an African country where we can't do business or am Asian where we can I pick the Asian one.

In tough times with record deficits you don't get to spend more money decisions should cut costs, be revenue neutral or bring in more money. I think this decision will be the later. Now could we find the money somewhere else? Yes I think we could however I don't think if it was a Liberal government we would. I think the NDP would and I think the Conservatives are doing what they would do. However I think the Liberals would just spend more money and I think that is the worse of all three options. Find the money, cut the embassy, or spend more money we don't have that is what we are talking about.

Considering the only government to run a balanced budget over the past 50 years was the modern Liberal Party, the notion that the Federal Liberal Party is the least financially responsible of the federal parties is utterly ridiculous.

As for Asian embassies, you do realize that they're not talking about shutting down African Embassies in favour of opening Asian embassies. They're talking about closing African embassies and running those embassies out of Asian embassies. It'll stretch the resources of the offices in Asian countries and effect the ability of those embassies to do business in both countries. I know Canada's ex-ambassador to NATO. His first posting within DFAIT, I want to say, was in Tanzania. The embassy was run out of the embassy in Rome. He said he never got anything done and was only ever allowed to actually travel to the country 2-3 times. Diplomats are supposed to liase with foreign governments - to set up contacts to the mutual benefit of both states. You just can't accomplish that by shutting down embassies. The diplomatic community is a very touchy one. Speaking "diplomaticaly" is a euphemism for people talking carefully for a reason. In a world where a single word within a communique can signal a giant shift in foreign policy, the message shutting embassies down is terrible. It says we just don't want to interact with the world anymore.

Like I said, it's us burning bridges. It just goes to show how incompetent this government is. If you agree with it, that's your prerogative, but I think you're under the impression that international relations works differently than it actually does.

[nicky10013]

We, we who? What Multinational Company's Corporate Board of Directors, do you currently sit on? Do you own voting shares where you personally vote at the AGM of that company that does business in Nigeria?

Does it matter whether I do or not? It still happens.

[Alta4ever]

Considering the only government to run a balanced budget over the past 50 years was the modern Liberal Party, the notion that the Federal Liberal Party is the least financially responsible of the federal parties is utterly ridiculous.

REALLY IS THIS TRUE?

I suggest you read up on you politics, because I know of two NDP and one conservative government that ran balanced budgets.

[punked]

Considering the only government to run a balanced budget over the past 50 years was the modern Liberal Party, the notion that the Federal Liberal Party is the least financially responsible of the federal parties is utterly ridiculous.

As for Asian embassies, you do realize that they're not talking about shutting down African Embassies in favour of opening Asian embassies. They're talking about closing African embassies and running those embassies out of Asian embassies. It'll stretch the resources of the offices in Asian countries and effect the ability of those embassies to do business in both countries. I know Canada's ex-ambassador to NATO. His first posting within DFAIT, I want to say, was in Tanzania. The embassy was run out of the embassy in Rome. He said he never got anything done and was only ever allowed to actually travel to the country 2-3 times. Diplomats are supposed to liase with foreign governments - to set up contacts to the mutual benefit of both states. You just can't accomplish that by shutting down embassies. The diplomatic community is a very touchy one. Speaking "diplomaticaly" is a euphemism for people talking carefully for a reason. In a world where a single word within a communique can signal a giant shift in foreign policy, the message shutting embassies down is terrible. It says we just don't want to interact with the world anymore.

Like I said, it's us burning bridges. It just goes to show how incompetent this government is. If you agree with it, that's your prerogative, but I think you're under the impression that international relations works differently than it actually does.

God where to start how about here. From your article:

If it happens, the closing of the embassies in Africa could be coupled with the opening of new embassies or trade offices in higher-priority regions such as Asia and Latin America. The Harper government has focused much of its attention on the emerging middle-income countries in those two regions, which are seen as more logical trading partners for Canada.

As for your "the Liberals balanced the budget in the 90s" thing. I will tell you this any government can balance a 50 billion dollar budget gap by taking it out of EI. That does not make you a finical wizard, it does not give you a free ride and it is really impressive. I am not going to get into the argument of the Liberals not really balancing anything but down loading the debt in the 90s on the provinces but I still pay the same amount for healthcare now as I did in the 90s the Feds just pay 20% less and the provinces 20% more. That money still comes out of my pocket they just got it off their books so you will have to excuse me when I (and the rest of Canada) doesn't buy it ok?

BTW this is all fun the average Canadian doesn't care.

[punked]

REALLY IS THIS TRUE?

I suggest you read up on you politics, because I know of two NDP and one conservative government that ran balanced budgets.

There have been more then that. I even think some very extreme Sask party which I do care for has even had one or two.

[nicky10013]

REALLY IS THIS TRUE?

I suggest you read up on you politics, because I know of two NDP and one conservative government that ran balanced budgets.

I guess you missed the federal part.

[Alta4ever]

There have been more then that. I even think some very extreme Sask party which I do care for has even had one or two.

I know there has been more, those were just the most relevant considering, the stance taken since it was argued "liberals being the most fiscally responsible" compared to the other parties.

[nicky10013]

God where to start how about here. From your article:

So, you're going to tear down perfectly good embassies now and build them in Asia where we already have them? And you're worried about spending money?

[Alta4ever]

I guess you missed the federal part.

You said "Considering the only government to run a balanced budget over the past 50 years was the modern Liberal Party,", you did not specify federal, but since you brought it up wasn't Trudeau's governments part of the modern liberal party? His governments were not fiscally responsible at all, he set up Canada for huge budget deficits. I suppose you don't remember the Trudeau years.

[Alta4ever]

So, you're going to tear down perfectly good embassies now and build them in Asia where we already have them? And you're worried about spending money?

What crown property can't be sold? I doubt we even own these building chances are they are leased office spaces, which would become a matter of non renewing the lease. And leasing new one in more relevant countries. Ones that we are increasing trade with.

[punked]

So, you're going to tear down perfectly good embassies now and build them in Asia where we already have them? And you're worried about spending money?

No we are going to build them where we don't have them in growing markets, in countries and regions that want our goods. Again we can't sell Zinc, Diamonds, Oil ect to Africa. It isn't 1990 anymore no matter how much the Liberals want it to be. Premiers aren't making trips to Africa they are making them to Asia and rightfully so, that where we need to trade to diversify our economy so it doesn't rise and fall with the American one. This is a brave new world and we need tough decisions to be made in terms of the world in 2010 not 1990 where the Liberals seem to be stuck.

Edited November 10, 2010 by punked

[nicky10013]

What crown property can't be sold? I doubt we even own these building chances are they are leased office spaces, which would become a matter of non renewing the lease. And leasing new one in more relevant countries. Ones that we are increasing trade with.

Ah the business man and his business smarts strike again. The sale of embassies in Africa will never raise the requisite capital to buy land and design and build new embassies in Asia. It also requires money to break a lease.

Edited November 10, 2010 by nicky10013

[nicky10013]

No we are going to build them where we don't have them in growing markets, in countries and regions that want our goods. Again we can't sell Zinc, Diamonds, Oil ect to Africa. It isn't 1990 anymore no matter how much the Liberals want it to be. Premiers aren't making trips to Africa they are making them to Asia and rightfully so, that where we need to trade to diversify our economy so it doesn't rise and fall with the American one. This is a brave new world and we need tough decisions to be made in terms of the world in 2010 not 1990 where the Liberals seem to be stuck.

And which growing markets do we need representation but currently have none?

[punked]

And which growing markets do we need representation but currently have none?

It really isn't a question of None. We have 2 South Korea which is the worlds 15th largest economy it is something like 2000 times bigger then Zambia's. I think shutting one down there and moving those people to South Korea might serve our interests better. You know more bang for our buck.

[Alta4ever]

Ah the business man and his business smarts strike again. The sale of embassies in Africa will never raise the requisite capital to buy land and design and build new embassies in Asia. It also requires money to break a lease.

The know nothing twenty year old strikes again! What do you think these embassies/consulates are, walled off sanctuaries, as viewed in the movies. They are existing office buildings, in many cases space is rented or leased. Most of our permanent embassies are in Europe and the USA.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Alta4ever

[punked]

Ah the business man and his business smarts strike again. The sale of embassies in Africa will never raise the requisite capital to buy land and design and build new embassies in Asia. It also requires money to break a lease.

I really don;'t think if the government wasn't going to save money they wouldn't be looking at doing this.

[Alta4ever]

I really don;'t think if the government wasn't going to save money they wouldn't be looking at doing this.

That would be a logical proposition, but don't worry it isn't lost on everyone.

[Alta4ever]

Posted Today, 07:49 PM

nicky10013, on 09 November 2010 - 07:42 PM, said:

Oh, I know the risks of doing business in Nigeria. It's a pretty hairy area. Yet, no matter what you say in terms of risk, we still do business there.

We, we who? What Multinational Company's Corporate Board of Directors, do you currently sit on? Do you own voting shares where you personally vote at the AGM of that company that does business in Nigeria?

You never did answer this, we who, who are you speaking for?

[nicky10013]

You never did answer this, we who, who are you speaking for?

Uhh, yeah, I actually did.

[nicky10013]

It really isn't a question of None. We have 2 South Korea which is the worlds 15th largest economy it is something like 2000 times bigger then Zambia's. I think shutting one down there and moving those people to South Korea might serve our interests better. You know more bang for our buck.

You realize that geographic size also is a consideration. Geographic size has something to do with it. South Korea is about the size of Southern Ontario. If not smaller.

[punked]

Growing economies with out embassies:

Laos

Nepal

Burma

Burundi

That is just a start, not to mention the countries in Latin America.

[Alta4ever]

Uhh, yeah, I actually did.

No, no you did not.

Does it matter whether I do or not? It still happens.