What can you do to stop racism?

[Shwa]

but there was verification process to be followed...my archy in the basement tells me there is an archeologist in the US that is claiming roman habitation, he has absolutely no verification yet wants everyone to take him seriously, do we?

Of course you take him seriously. How do you expect to refute someone if you are simply dismissive because a claim doesn't fit your particular model? Arrogance doesn't do science any good. Now, I think crazier claims are likely easier to refute - you might even have some fun with it - but complex claim with arrays of evidence deserve some attention.

Grimshaw site in Alberta is a good example of all of the above. Lithic artefacts found in sand that indicates evidence of pre-glacial occupation of that area, setting the human habitation dates back by 20k years or more. That is how new archaeology is becoming more multi-disciplined these days, because people are taking these claims seriously. In the case of Grimshaw, there is no evidence that the lithics were created by humans since they could have been created by glaciation or some other geological effect. There is no other context to the artefacts that places humans near them.

But I am sure there are more than a few looking for context. There always is...

Edited November 10, 2010 by Shwa

[wyly]

Of course you take him seriously. How do you expect to refute someone if you are simply dismissive because a claim doesn't fit your particular model? Arrogance doesn't do science any good. Now, I think crazier claims are likely easier to refute - you might even have some fun with it - but complex claim with arrays of evidence deserve some attention.

his actual claim was he found the grave site of a Roman emperor in Wisconsin...no you do not take him seriously he had nothing to present...someone wants to make claim that the vikings reached N America find the evidence first, and they did...

Grimshaw site in Alberta is a good example of all of the above. Lithic artefacts found in sand that indicates evidence of pre-glacial occupation of that area, setting the human habitation dates back by 20k years or more. That is how new archaeology is becoming more multi-disciplined these days, because people are taking these claims seriously. In the case of Grimshaw, there is no evidence that the lithics were created by humans since they could have been created by glaciation or some other geological effect. There is no other context to the artefacts that places humans near them.

anything found in sand or gravel is immediately suspect,wind/water/floods stir things up destroying the context...even suggesting that it puts habitation back 20,000 earlier is irresponsible when there is no support for it...

But I am sure there are more than a few looking for context. There always is...

always and that's good research but making suggestive claims seem definitive is not...

[charter.rights]

Oh..so those questions do not dispute the claim?

Nope they don't.

[Shwa]

his actual claim was he found the grave site of a Roman emperor in Wisconsin...no you do not take him seriously he had nothing to present...someone wants to make claim that the vikings reached N America find the evidence first, and they did...

I am talking honest science here. If he was a lunatic, the seriousness should be directed towards getting him some help.

anything found in sand or gravel is immediately suspect,wind/water/floods stir things up destroying the context...even suggesting that it puts habitation back 20,000 earlier is irresponsible when there is no support for it...

But there was "support" for the claim. The artefacts could also be human made, since they were examined by a team of archaeologists with similar education as your kid. The refutation as definitive evidence comes from geology, not archaeology. For example, you can be digging away, find a fluted Clovis point and nothing more and determine that it is human in origin.

always and that's good research but making suggestive claims seem definitive is not...

Oh, I am not too worried about people making definitive claims based upon specious evidence are you? Notwithstanding that some of those claims might be used as input and direction for Indian policy and the person making the claim might be a well-known archaeologist. As long as we know better, everything should be okay...

Edited November 10, 2010 by Shwa

[bud]

If it ain't Scottish, it's crap.

totally! best thing out of scotland? uhm.

hm.

oh yeah!

a movie made by an aussie american about a scottish hero whose character is very loosely based on a real life terrorist scotts who fought against the occupying british.

[guyser]

a movie made by an aussie american about a scottish hero whose character is very loosely based on a real life terrorist scotts who fought against the occupying british.

Austin Powers or the sequel ?

[M.Dancer]

Austin Powers or the sequel ?

Billy Elliott?

[G.P. Lehmann]

@ charter.rights

1. Your argument is based on a double standard. You say racism exists solely against non-whites; when one uses derogative, race related terms against whites it magically become "pejorative". You imply whites are the only ones capable of racism and have the monopoly on its distribution.

2. Regardless of ones race if they are using race based terminology its still a racist term.

3. These anti-racism groups do nothing but increase ration tension by telling us everyone is being racist all the time; ESPECIALLY by singling out one race as the problem. So in fact these people are major racists.

[charter.rights]

@ charter.rights

1. Your argument is based on a double standard. You say racism exists solely against non-whites;

I never said that.

...when one uses derogative, race related terms against whites it magically become "pejorative".

I never said that either. What I did say is that when a Caucasian Canadian calls a Caucasian Englishman a "limey" it is pejorative and not racist.

You imply whites are the only ones capable of racism and have the monopoly on its distribution.

Oops! Never said or implied that either. What the OP suggests that that racism is being used by white people to support our privileges in society to the detriment of minorities.

2. Regardless of ones race if they are using race based terminology its still a racist term.

Not when it is against the people in their same racial group. Then it may be pejorative but it certainly cannot be racist. See the definition of racism.

3. These anti-racism groups do nothing but increase ration tension by telling us everyone is being racist all the time;

Racism exist in society and as our particular society is dominated by Caucasians our privileges stem from that control and exceptions granted to us because of our colour.

ESPECIALLY by singling out one race as the problem.

The dominant group is society is Caucasians and since we tend to support our own, it gives us privileges over other minorities. That IS a (the) problem.

So in fact these people are major racists.

It is a lousy conclusion drawn from a spurious similarity fallacy argument. Sorry dude. You failed the test.

[wyly]

I never said that either. What I did say is that when a Caucasian Canadian calls a Caucasian Englishman a "limey" it is pejorative and not racist.

it is...

Not when it is against the people in their same racial group. Then it may be pejorative but it certainly cannot be racist. See the definition of racism.

the two following definitions would counter your perception of race...

Merriam-webster racism : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

Race-A race is a distinct population of humans distinguished in some way from other humans. The most widely observed races are those based on skin color, facial features, ancestry, genetics, and national origin. Conceptions of race, as well as specific racial groupings, are often controversial due to their political and sociological uses and implications.

and to muddy the whole issue, and I love to bring it up at every opportunity, there is no such thing as race in sapiens, we are all the same, we are all related, we are all family we only left africa at different times...

not that racism isn't a issue it is, it's even more stupid in light of the fact that there are no races...race is social invention...

Edited November 11, 2010 by wyly

[G.P. Lehmann]

wow, you hold some deep seeded racism towards whites. You forget that there are a large number of whites living in poverty, where is their privilege? What about affirmative action? That must be another tool of the white man to keep minorities down? you see racism where it doesn't exist, and by doing so perpetuate it.

[charter.rights]

wow, you hold some deep seeded racism towards whites. You forget that there are a large number of whites living in poverty, where is their privilege? What about affirmative action? That must be another tool of the white man to keep minorities down? you see racism where it doesn't exist, and by doing so perpetuate it.

I get that you can't see it. That is what comes with white privilege....not having to face reality of one's own racism towards minorities.

[KeyStone]

Wrong. They call themselves Wiggers.

I certainly don't need to take lessons on racism from a racist who uses a term like this.

Go back to your little friends in Edmonton and start using that term, and see how long they put up with you.

Thought someone on such a high horse, would be a little more aware.

[charter.rights]

I certainly don't need to take lessons on racism from a racist who uses a term like this.

Go back to your little friends in Edmonton and start using that term, and see how long they put up with you.

Thought someone on such a high horse, would be a little more aware.

It isn't racism either, my petulant little child. It is a pejorative. Too bad you don't know the difference. But it does help us all understand how ignorance plays a role in "White privilege". Many think that they can cover up their own racist talk by pointing fingers. It doesn't work here no in the real world.

Wigger

[G.P. Lehmann]

I cant believe I have been so blind as to not see this invisible privilege that cant be circumscribed or defined.

Did you grow up in a white affluent neighborhood receiving racial discounts on products and services? Now you assume all others have had your privilege and your guilt has driven you on a moral quest to make those aware that they are being racist without even knowing?

if so, you have a perverted view of reality my friend.

But i can play your game. Lets pretend for a moment that there is invisible white privilege because of their majority in Canada (unevenly distributed of course). Would you then concede that in China there is an Asian privilege and in Iran there is an Arab privilege?

[wyly]

I cant believe I have been so blind as to not see this invisible privilege that cant be circumscribed or defined.

Did you grow up in a white affluent neighborhood receiving racial discounts on products and services? Now you assume all others have had your privilege and your guilt has driven you on a moral quest to make those aware that they are being racist without even knowing?

if so, you have a perverted view of reality my friend.

But i can play your game. Lets pretend for a moment that there is invisible white privilege because of their majority in Canada (unevenly distributed of course). Would you then concede that in China there is an Asian privilege and in Iran there is an Arab privilege?

an official system of privilege no but it does exist in all cultures...and why would there be an arab privilage in Iran, Iran isn't an arab country...

[Argus]

Wrong. They are called cafeterias and student lounges.

I must have missed the "white people only" sign on my student lounge. Maybe it's been put in since I last dropped by...

[Argus]

Racism exist in society and as our particular society is dominated by Caucasians our privileges stem from that control and exceptions granted to us because of our colour.

Up until the 70s this society was pretty much homogeneously white. So did our privileges derive from our colour back then, or have they only derived from our colour since we started bringing in large numbers of non-whites?

[AngusThermopyle]

Well Charter, as I mentioned earlier in the thred, you tend to assume far too much. Do you recall that I lived in Fort MacLeod for some time? Do you recall that it is situated between the two largest reserves in North America? A great many times this question was asked of me by Natives, the comment about going back to where I came from was made exclusively by Natives.

So, would you not say that this was racism? Or is there some reason of which I am unaware that makes it non racist?

[Bonam]

After reading this thread, I can only come to the conclusion that charter.rights is among the most disgustingly racist individuals I have ever witnessed posting on these forums. Him and lictor, two sides of the same coin.

[Oleg Bach]

The more you mention racism the longer it lasts.

[kimmy]

White Privilege Checklist

So Peggy McIntosh asserts the existence of: "“an invisible package of unearned assets, which I can count on cashing in each day, but about which I was ‘meant’ to remain oblivious. White privilege is like an invisible weightless knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, code books, visas, clothes, tools, and blank checks”"

But when it comes to providing examples, they come up with:

___ 1. I can arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

___ 2. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed

or harassed.

___ 3. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my

race widely represented.

___ 4. When I am told about our national heritage or about “civilization,” I am shown that people

of my color made it what it is.

___ 5. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the

existence of their race.

___ 6. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a

supermarket and find the food I grew up with, into a hairdresser’s shop and find someone

who can deal with my hair.

___ 7. Whether I use checks, credit cards, or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work

against the appearance of financial responsibility.

___ 8. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing, or body odor will be taken as a

reflection on my race.

___ 9. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

___ 10. I can take a job or enroll in a college with an affirmative action policy without having my

co-workers or peers assume I got it because of my race.

___ 11. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

___ 12. I can choose public accommodation with out fearing that people of my race cannot get in

or will be mistreated.

___ 13. I am never asked to speak for all of the people of my racial group.

___ 14. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk with the “person in charge” I will be facing a

person of my race.

___ 15. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven’t

been singled out because of my race.

___ 16. I can easily by posters, postcards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and

children’s magazines featuring people of my race.

___ 17. I can choose blemish cover or bandages in “flesh” color and have them more or less match

my skin.

___ 18. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

___ 19. I can walk into a classroom and know I will not be the only member of my race.

___ 20. I can enroll in a class at college and be sure that the majority of my professors will be of

my race.

What a lame list of "privileges". First off, this must be a pretty dated list, because going by this list, black and Asian people now enjoy many aspects of White Privilege as well. Many of those that aren't are pretty nebulous as being "privileges".

Is it to my advantage that the most readily available bandages are designed for a "white" consumer? Those bandages match my skin about as well as they match Wesley Snipes. The fuzzy-wuzzy self-esteem boost that comes from knowing that our country's constitution was drafted by people of ostensibly the same race as me? If I ask to speak to "the person in charge" and somebody of a different race comes out, so what? Who cares?

I mean, how is stuff like this supposed to be "an invisible knapsack of special provisions, maps, passports, code books, visas, clothes, tools, and blank checks”"? The examples just don't live up to the rhetoric.

-k

[KeyStone]

What an awesome list!

Hey everyone, let's all drop out of school and/or quit our jobs.

With this awesome list of white priveleges, we can live off the land forever!

I can't wait to demand to talk to a supervisor and get a white person.

So awesome!

[conformunist]

Look, as a card carrying member of the Aboriginal community with primarily Caucasian looks (Native mom and White dad)I'm actually pretty incensed in what I've read on this forum.

Firstly, my mother's side of the family (primarily residing on Reserve) are by FAR more racist than any white person I have encountered. This isn't to say that they're bad people, far from it, actually. The culture on reserve and in aboriginal communities is that of paranoia, fear and hopelessness. "Why is that?" an astute listener might ask. It's simple; from birth they have been taught by society that "whitey" will keep them down, no matter how hard they try. I've seen and heard this for myself.

Secondly, my GOD people, natives don't need you to come save them from The White Man. Why the heck do you think they feel this way in the first place!? What, just because of some terrible politics that went down decades upon decades ago the Native Community can't help themselves? My mother did it, I (to a lesser extent, admittedly) did it and many other Aboriginal people have done it.

The second we coddle whom WE perceive as second class citizens is the second they are given every reason TO BE coddled and feel as though they are in fact a lesser class.

[G.P. Lehmann]

Those are some great privileges, I was sure lower interest rates on mortgages would be based on race. They must have missed that one.

Edited November 12, 2010 by G.P. Lehmann