The roots of Muslims Anti-semitism

[M.Dancer]

..are European fascism..

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/Politics/1244504890/ID=1630868402

No surprises...

[DogOnPorch]

I've hammered this nail for years...good vid.

[DogOnPorch]

History Channel's depiction of der Grossmufti.

[Sir Bandelot]

..are European fascism..

http://www.cbc.ca/video/#/News/Politics/1244504890/ID=1630868402

No surprises...

He makes many good points, a voice of reason, from a muslim.

One can also interpret what he said about fascism as this: Europeans had a "problem", they wanted to export the Jews and had some meetings to discuss where to send them. Interesting places like Madagascar were mentioned. Canada, the US and Great Britain did not go out of their way to allow Jews to immigrate into those countries. So finally a parcel of land was decided upon, by these "Great Powers" who didn't want them to come into their own borders. In doing this what they were saying is. now it's your problem not mine.

[DogOnPorch]

One can also interpret what he said about fascism as this: Europeans had a "problem", they wanted to export the Jews and had some meetings to discuss where to send them. Interesting places like Madagascar were mentioned.

Initially called Rademacher's Madagascar Plan; after the SS became involved it became the Reichssicherheitshauptamt: Madagaskar Projekt. Had Britain been defeated and America kept out of the war it was envisioned that Madagascar could be handed over to Germany from Vichy France and turned into a super-ghetto for Europe's Jews. There they would be held hostage to ensure American cooperation with the Reich. Events of the war* plus infighting between different Nazi ministries put the kybosh on this proposal forever. Reinhard Heydrich in particular had no enthusiasm for the plan as major SS camp/ghetto construction had already began in Poland which generally set everybody else's tone least they attract Heydrich's personal attention/wrath. Even Ribbentrop who initially called on Rademacher to create the plan lost interest as the RSHA's efforts towards Jewish deportation to the East became a reality.

All this eventually fell into Heydrich's lap who ordered the Wannsee Conference which outlined the Final Solution to the Jewish 'problem'. Mass killings of Jews had already started in the occupied Eastern territories and he figured if ALL the Jews were all eliminated in one swoop, all the better for all involved. He proceeded under Hitler's and Himmler's verbal approval.

By the time Heydrich was assassinated by Allied agents in May 1942, the death machine was already running and continued to run under Ernst Kaltenbrunner until the end of the war in Europe.

Canada, the US and Great Britain did not go out of their way to allow Jews to immigrate into those countries. So finally a parcel of land was decided upon, by these "Great Powers" who didn't want them to come into their own borders. In doing this what they were saying is. now it's your problem not mine.

America had a yearly Jewish quota while Canada outright refused (No Jews are too many). The story of the St Louis is the classic example of this. Re: British Palestine being decided upon by 'Great Powers'...incorrect...the Mandate was chosen as a destination by the Jews themselves. They had been trickling in since the end of WW1.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/stlouis.html

Other nations such as Poland thought similar plans were possible before the war...but nothing happened, of course.

*Allied occupation of Madagascar, America entering the war...and, of course...Great Britain not falling.

Edited November 3, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[Bonam]

One can also interpret what he said about fascism as this: Europeans had a "problem", they wanted to export the Jews and had some meetings to discuss where to send them. Interesting places like Madagascar were mentioned. Canada, the US and Great Britain did not go out of their way to allow Jews to immigrate into those countries. So finally a parcel of land was decided upon, by these "Great Powers" who didn't want them to come into their own borders. In doing this what they were saying is. now it's your problem not mine.

Except of course he didn't say or even allude to any of that...

[Jack Weber]

Tarek Fatah...SPOT ON!!!

[Sir Bandelot]

America had a yearly Jewish quota while Canada outright refused (No Jews are too many). The story of the St Louis is the classic example of this. Re: British Palestine being decided upon by 'Great Powers'...incorrect...the Mandate was chosen as a destination by the Jews themselves. They had been trickling in since the end of WW1.

Yeah, been there.

Fact is, antisemitism existed throughout the whole of Europe for over a thousand years. the "Jewish question" is one that was shared by every country. And evidence shows, when the nazis enabled their final solution, there was no great resistance to sending jews from every nation to the concentration camps, many of which were spread throughout Europe and operated by local governments, guards and executioners. yes, even non-European countries did little to help the Jews, when the time came Canada also turned its back on jewish people who wanted to leave Europe. Look up the story of the SS St. Louis. That is only one example of a policy that deemed Jewish refugees more dangerous for Canada than the Nazis were.

was posted in "To the Tea Party: Keep Your Hands Off of German History"

But I differ with how cleanly you brought the Jews to Palestine. A chosen destination... history seems to hint that they wanted to go to Canada, The US, Great Britain, even Cuba, South America. All turned them down. Oh yeah, some got let in some of those countries. But many did not... and these people were facing a life-threatening emergency. Let's not gloss over what happened. The whole world turned its back on these people. And the Gypsies, and the Roma... please, not in my backyard, Jack...

So the "untermensch" were sent to a land, where there was an even lower untermensch. Not a problem that Palestinians already lived there. They could be deported too, by the hundreds of thousands, in good old nazi style (but the year is 1948... hardly can blame the nazis for that one.)

From this we can draw a larger conclusion, as to the roots of WESTERN antisemitism

[kimmy]

I've always admired Tarek Fatah. And I agree with almost everything he says here, especially toward the end.

I don't think he's blaming Europeans for anti-Semitism among Muslims or trying to deflect criticism from Muslims. I think he's saying that Muslims have seized on things like "The Protocols" to justify their believes.

-k

[DogOnPorch]

Yeah, been there.

was posted in "To the Tea Party: Keep Your Hands Off of German History"

I'm not involved with said thread.

But I differ with how cleanly you brought the Jews to Palestine. A chosen destination... history seems to hint that they wanted to go to Canada, The US, Great Britain, even Cuba, South America. All turned them down. Oh yeah, some got let in some of those countries. But many did not... and these people were facing a life-threatening emergency. Let's not gloss over what happened. The whole world turned its back on these people. And the Gypsies, and the Roma... please, not in my backyard, Jack...

All Jews didn't want to go to Palestine.

My aunt was aboard the St Louis...she's still kickin', too. Tough old bird. Their destination was indeed the US. Cuba was used as a waiting zone for the New Year to come and the new US intake of Jews...that is until the St Louis, from which the Cubans extorted extra taxes and fees of which they couldn't pay. The Cubans naturally thought they were rich and had brought all their apparent vast wealth with them. Luckily for her and her family, they were dropped off in France on the return trip. Those passengers that went all the way back to Germany didn't survive the war.

So the "untermensch" were sent to a land, where there was an even lower untermensch. Not a problem that Palestinians already lived there. They could be deported too, by the hundreds of thousands, in good old nazi style (but the year is 1948... hardly can blame the nazis for that one.)

Eh? You're not making sense.

I'm not quite sure what you're on about, but the Mufti brought many former Nazis into his fold post-WW2 to help him with his secret army...which was quite public...but technically illegal under British rules.

From this we can draw a larger conclusion, as to the roots of WESTERN antisemitism

I'm certainly not denying there's Western anti-Semitism. What is the larger conclusion you draw from it?

[DogOnPorch]

An interesting thing to consider re: the Mufti and the 3rd Reich is the rank he held in the SS..that of Obergruppenfuhrer (General). This rank was quite rare in the SS and he held sway over many famous top Nazis like Eichmann and Hoss (both Obersturmbannfuhrers/Lt Colonels).

[M.Dancer]

Not a problem that Palestinians already lived there.

Where as Madagascar was Palestinian free?

[Sir Bandelot]

My aunt was aboard the St Louis...she's still kickin', too. Tough old bird. Their destination was indeed the US. Cuba was used as a waiting zone for the New Year to come and the new US intake of Jews...that is until the St Louis, from which the Cubans extorted extra taxes and fees of which they couldn't pay. The Cubans naturally thought they were rich and had brought all their apparent vast wealth with them. Luckily for her and her family, they were dropped off in France on the return trip. Those passengers that went all the way back to Germany didn't survive the war.

Interesting and believeable anecdote.

I'm certainly not denying there's Western anti-Semitism. What is the larger conclusion you draw from it?

Many people do not know about western complicity in the holocaust, and to this day the story is not being fully acknowledged and told. The larger conclusion is that the west turned its back on the Jews, and once they were corralled into Palestine it wasn't our problem anymore. In truth the roots of anti-semitism go much much farther back than the past 100 years. More like, 2000 years... See Martin Luther, for example. His treatise on the Jews would have made Hitler blush.

[DogOnPorch]

Many people do not know about western complicity in the holocaust, and to this day the story is not being fully acknowledged and told. The larger conclusion is that the west turned its back on the Jews, and once they were corralled into Palestine it wasn't our problem anymore. In truth the roots of anti-semitism go much much farther back than the past 100 years. More like, 2000 years... See Martin Luther, for example. His treatise on the Jews would have made Hitler blush.

Germany is part of the 'West' and Martin Luther was German...so I assume you mean the Allies. What the Allies knew and what they suspected is recorded by various historians. For example...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_bombing_debate

But to say that the Allies were complicit with regards to the Holocaust is similar to saying that the bartender is complicit in you getting a drunken driving charge. It's a relativist boondoggle. Nazis conducted the Holocaust...not the Allies. SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Mohammad Amin al-Husseini, the first leader of the so-called Palestinians, was right near the top of this murderous conduct.

[M.Dancer]

Germany is part of the 'West' and Martin Luther was German...so I assume you mean the Allies.

I think the argument is, the allies could have lengthened the war by concentrating on the strategically insignificant death camps instead of what they did...

As they say, hindsight is myopic.

[DogOnPorch]

I think the argument is, the allies could have lengthened the war by concentrating on the strategically insignificant death camps instead of what they did...

As they say, hindsight is myopic.

As well...carpet bombing Auschwitz would have killed the inmates as along side the guards...and it wouldn't have stopped the various other Death Camps the Allies were unaware of. To boot, by 1944 when the Allies were starting to finally clue in to what was happening, most of the dedicated extermination camps had already completed their vicious tasks and were set to be overrun by the advancing Soviets.

Edited November 3, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[Sir Bandelot]

But to say that the Allies were complicit with regards to the Holocaust is similar to saying that the bartender is complicit in you getting a drunken driving charge. It's a relativist boondoggle. Nazis conducted the Holocaust...not the Allies. SS-Obergruppenfuhrer Mohammad Amin al-Husseini, the first leader of the so-called Palestinians, was right near the top of this murderous conduct.

Not really. What, sending the ship back, knowing full well what will happen to them, that's not complicit? Not accepting child refugees? Both things Canada did. Oh wait, after much debate in the House Canada decided they would allow a number of child refugees- they accepted ONE.

[Sir Bandelot]

As well...carpet bombing Auschwitz would have killed the inmates as along side the guards...and it wouldn't have stopped the various other Death Camps the Allies were unaware of.

Of course carpet bombing Auschwitz would be absurd. there's not many options for right action, once the polecat is in the henhouse.

by 1944 when the Allies were starting to finally clue in to what was happening, most of the dedicated extermination camps had already completed their vicious tasks and were set to be overrun by the advancing Soviets.

"Finally clue in to what was happening"... I find that doubtful. Do you realize how much espionage was going on at the time?

[DogOnPorch]

Not really. What, sending the ship back, knowing full well what will happen to them, that's not complicit? Not accepting child refugees? Both things Canada did. Oh wait, after much debate in the House Canada decided they would allow a number of child refugees- they accepted ONE.

In 1939/1940 what was going to happen to them? You're looking at history with the advantage of reading the last chapters of the book before they happened.

[DogOnPorch]

Of course carpet bombing Auschwitz would be absurd. there's not many options for right action, once the polecat is in the henhouse.

"Finally clue in to what was happening"... I find that doubtful. Do you realize how much espionage was going on at the time?

Do tell me in detail with sources what the Allies knew about the Final Solution before the end of the war.

Either that or go all the way and claim you were complicit in the Holocaust for not using your mind-reading/future-seeing abilities to warn Europe's Jews of the disaster awaiting them. While you're at it, find out the LOTO numbers for next weeks draws, too.

Edited November 3, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[Sir Bandelot]

Do tell me in detail with sources what the Allies knew about the Final Solution before the end of the war.

Why should I bother to do your homework for you? It only takes a few minutes in a google search to come up with all sorts of information. As always, information is buyer-beware, so pick your poison.

But at the risk of spoon feeding the ill informed, I will venture into the cess pool and play a while longer.

From wiesenthal.com-

19. Did the people of occupied Europe know about Nazi plans for the Jews? What was their attitude? Did they cooperate with the Nazis against the Jews?

Answer: In every country they occupied, with the exception of Denmark and Bulgaria, the Nazis found many locals who were willing to cooperate fully in the murder of the Jews. This was particularly true in Eastern Europe, where there was a long standing tradition of virulent antisemitism, and where various national groups, which had been under Soviet domination (Latvians, Lithuanians, and Ukrainians), fostered hopes that the Germans would restore their independence. In several countries in Europe, there were local fascist movements which allied themselves with the Nazis and participated in anti-Jewish actions; for example, the Iron Guard in Romania and the Arrow Guard in Slovakia. On the other hand, in every country in Europe, there were courageous individuals who risked their lives to save Jews. In several countries, there were groups which aided Jews, e.g. Joop Westerweel's group in the Netherlands, Zegota in Poland, and the Assisi underground in Italy.

20. Did the Allies and the people in the Free World know about the events going on in Europe?

Answer: The various steps taken by the Nazis prior to the "Final Solution" were all taken publicly and were, therefore, reported in the press. Foreign correspondents commented on all the major anti-Jewish actions taken by the Nazis in Germany, Austria, and Czechoslovakia prior to World War II. Once the war began, obtaining information became more difficult, but reports, nonetheless, were published regarding the fate of the Jews. Thus, although the Nazis did not publicize the "Final Solution," less than one year after the systematic murder of the Jews was initiated, details began to filter out to the West. The first report which spoke of a plan for the mass murder of Jews was smuggled out of Poland by the Bund (a Jewish socialist political organization) and reached England in the spring of 1942. The details of this report reached the Allies from Vatican sources as well as from informants in Switzerland and the Polish underground. (Jan Karski, an emissary of the Polish underground, personally met with Franklin Roosevelt and British Foreign Minister Anthony Eden). Eventually, the American Government confirmed the reports to Jewish leaders in late November 1942. They were publicized immediately thereafter. While the details were neither complete nor wholly accurate, the Allies were aware of most of what the Germans had done to the Jews at a relatively early date.

21. What was the response of the Allies to the persecution of the Jews? Could they have done anything to help?

Answer: The response of the Allies to the persecution and destruction of European Jewry was inadequate. Tens of thousands of Jews sought to enter the United States, but they were barred from doing so by the stringent American immigration policy. Even the relatively small quotas of visas which existed were often not filled, although the number of applicants was usually many times the number of available places. Conferences held in Evian, France (1938) and Bermuda (1943) to solve the refugee problem did not contribute to a solution. At the former, the countries invited by the United States and Great Britain were told that no country would be asked to change its immigration laws. Moreover, the British agreed to participate only if Palestine were not considered. At Bermuda, the delegates did not deal with the fate of those still in Nazi hands, but rather with those who had already escaped to neutral lands.

Either that or go all the way and claim you were complicit in the Holocaust for not using your mind-reading/future-seeing abilities to warn Europe's Jews of the disaster awaiting them. While you're at it, find out the LOTO numbers for next weeks draws, too.

It's about common sense. What you are proposing is something like a September 11 conspiracy, where hundreds or even thousands of people were in on it but somehow managed to keep it a secret form the worlds greatest superpowers, and their network of espionage. Believing that, is very naive.

But these uncomfortable facts have yet to become fully acknowledged by the west (read, allies...). If Jewish historians and researchers like Wiesenthal center continue their investigations, and petition for information from governments then the full truth will finally come out. We are still too close in time to this disaster to accept our full complicity.

Sorry but you'll have to get your own Lotto numbers. I've NEVER played it. I'm not a gambling man...

[DogOnPorch]

Why should I bother to do your homework for you? It only takes a few minutes in a google search to come up with all sorts of information. As always, information is buyer-beware, so pick your poison.

But at the risk of spoon feeding the ill informed, I will venture into the cess pool and play a while longer.

From wiesenthal.com-

19. Did the people of occupied Europe know about Nazi plans for the Jews? What was their attitude? Did they cooperate with the Nazis against the Jews?

Answer: In every country they occupied, with the exception of Denmark and Bulgaria, the Nazis found many locals who were willing to cooperate fully in the murder of the Jews. This was particularly true in Eastern Europe, where there was a long standing tradition of virulent antisemitism, and where various national groups, which had been under Soviet domination (Latvians, Lithuanians, and Ukrainians), fostered hopes that the Germans would restore their independence. In several countries in Europe, there were local fascist movements which allied themselves with the Nazis and participated in anti-Jewish actions; for example, the Iron Guard in Romania and the Arrow Guard in Slovakia. On the other hand, in every country in Europe, there were courageous individuals who risked their lives to save Jews. In several countries, there were groups which aided Jews, e.g. Joop Westerweel's group in the Netherlands, Zegota in Poland, and the Assisi underground in Italy.

20. Did the Allies and the people in the Free World know about the events going on in Europe?

Answer: The various steps taken by the Nazis prior to the "Final Solution" were all taken publicly and were, therefore, reported in the press. Foreign correspondents commented on all the major anti-Jewish actions taken by the Nazis in Germany, Austria, and Czechoslovakia prior to World War II. Once the war began, obtaining information became more difficult, but reports, nonetheless, were published regarding the fate of the Jews. Thus, although the Nazis did not publicize the "Final Solution," less than one year after the systematic murder of the Jews was initiated, details began to filter out to the West. The first report which spoke of a plan for the mass murder of Jews was smuggled out of Poland by the Bund (a Jewish socialist political organization) and reached England in the spring of 1942. The details of this report reached the Allies from Vatican sources as well as from informants in Switzerland and the Polish underground. (Jan Karski, an emissary of the Polish underground, personally met with Franklin Roosevelt and British Foreign Minister Anthony Eden). Eventually, the American Government confirmed the reports to Jewish leaders in late November 1942. They were publicized immediately thereafter. While the details were neither complete nor wholly accurate, the Allies were aware of most of what the Germans had done to the Jews at a relatively early date.

21. What was the response of the Allies to the persecution of the Jews? Could they have done anything to help?

Answer: The response of the Allies to the persecution and destruction of European Jewry was inadequate. Tens of thousands of Jews sought to enter the United States, but they were barred from doing so by the stringent American immigration policy. Even the relatively small quotas of visas which existed were often not filled, although the number of applicants was usually many times the number of available places. Conferences held in Evian, France (1938) and Bermuda (1943) to solve the refugee problem did not contribute to a solution. At the former, the countries invited by the United States and Great Britain were told that no country would be asked to change its immigration laws. Moreover, the British agreed to participate only if Palestine were not considered. At Bermuda, the delegates did not deal with the fate of those still in Nazi hands, but rather with those who had already escaped to neutral lands.

It's about common sense. What you are proposing is something like a September 11 conspiracy, where hundreds or even thousands of people were in on it but somehow managed to keep it a secret form the worlds greatest superpowers, and their network of espionage. Believing that, is very naive.

But these uncomfortable facts have yet to become fully acknowledged by the west (read, allies...). If Jewish historians and researchers like Wiesenthal center continue their investigations, and petition for information from governments then the full truth will finally come out. We are still too close in time to this disaster to accept our full complicity.

Sorry but you'll have to get your own Lotto numbers. I've NEVER played it. I'm not a gambling man...

Again this is why you are a relativist. Nobody except Nazis were at the Wannsee Conference...no Polish partisans...no Jewish servents...no Allied spies. It's easy for us in the 21st century to look back with all the data at our fingertips thanks to the internet and say: Gee...folks should have known what was happening to the Jews. Then to say it and balance it off of all the other frantic life-or-death activities going on at the very same moment. The U-Boat crisis...disaster on the Russian Front...Rommel in North Africa, Japan attacking in the Pacific, etc, etc. Fact is, most Germans were unaware of the true extent of the SS's activities in regards to the Holocaust, let alone the Allies. The SS didn't owe anybody an explanation and didn't give one as to why they hauled your Jewish neighbours away. You'll be next if you ask too many questions.

Vague reports from single sources claiming this or that had to face Allied scrutiny based on what was happening in the total field of conflict...not just how it might or might not be affecting Jews in mysterious occupied Poland or Russia or where-ever. That you were unable to respond with certainties (telling me to look it up myself, more or less) should tell you that during the war, certainty was at an all-time low. You'd have gleefully posted the facts, otherwise. All the while deflecting away from the Grand Mufti and his SS bretheren who actually did the dirty deeds. Your relativist viewpoint aside, this certainty we do know about the Holocaust. The Nazis did it. Not the Allies.

[Sir Bandelot]

It's easy for us in the 21st century to look back with all the data at our fingertips thanks to the internet and say: Gee...folks should have known what was happening to the Jews. Then to say it and balance it off of all the other frantic life-or-death activities ... etc

I'm afraid you're not reading very well today. Folks DID know.

I proved what you asked. The rest of your diatribe is apologies, from an apologist.

Edited November 4, 2010 by Sir Bandelot

[Sir Bandelot]

The Nazis did it. Not the Allies.

I blame the nazis, first and foremost. That is easy to do. What's harder and takes more courage, is to look at what others were also doing, or rather NOT doing. No one helped the Jew. In fact quite the contrary, when the Jew came looking for refuge from the killers, the Allies slammed the doors shut.

So I am not taking away from what the killers did. I am showing how the Jew was hated and shunned, around the world. And now you can't say, "We didn't know..."

Vague reports from single sources? I thought perhaps the Wiesenthal center would be enough to satisfy you, but in truth I knew better. That's why I already put my hip waders on...

[DogOnPorch]

I'm afraid you're not reading very well today. Folks DID know.

I proved what you asked. The rest of your diatribe is apologies, from an apologist.

A single biased source: the victim. If you can recall, Simon Wiesenthal claimed he had caught Eichmann too. What we do know is that the Nazis would fool those arriving at places like Treblinka saying it was a work camp and after a shower, hot food and new clothes awaited. They often had bands playing soothing music to add to the illusion. But if we go with your claim the World knew about the Final Solution, these Jews must have either been extra stupid or somehow not privy to this apparent universal information.

I blame the nazis, first and foremost. That is easy to do. What's harder and takes more courage, is to look at what others were also doing, or rather NOT doing. No one helped the Jew. In fact quite the contrary, when the Jew came looking for refuge from the killers, the Allies slammed the doors shut.

And yet my aunt lives in NYC and has done so since 1940. But if you wish to blame yourself for the Holocaust, by all means. How do you plan on punishing yourself? Will it be on YouTube? You have my full support here as relativists deserve punishment.

So I am not taking away from what the killers did. I am showing how the Jew was hated and shunned, around the world. And now you can't say, "We didn't know..."

They didn't know about the Final Solution. Those privy to rumors from the East tended to downplay the claims out of disbelief...ie 'It can't be that bad...can it?' Me thinks you're confusing this with Germany's initial persecution of the Jews as per the Nuremburg Laws. I'd suggest you watch either of the fine recreations of the Wannsee Conference...easily found on the internet...to see how the Final Solution was decided upon. Both follow the meeting's recorded minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsvFb-mIVWI

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0266425/

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088377/

Vague reports from single sources? I thought perhaps the Wiesenthal center would be enough to satisfy you, but in truth I knew better. That's why I already put my hip waders on...

Awww...that's cute. A Jewish source...that'll satisfy DOP...lol. Wiesenthal was a bit of a blow-hard. Seeing that he spent the war inside these camps, it's pretty darn impossible for him to claim what the world did and did not know with certainty circa 1942/44 when the bulk of the killing took place.

Anyways, the Mufti was right at the forefront of the Holocaust's Final Solution and did know what was going on after being told so by Hitler and then Himmler personally. Roots of Muslim anti-Semitism n' all...which you continue to deflect away from.

Edited November 5, 2010 by DogOnPorch