Canada’s prostitution laws unconstitutional, court rules

[Michael Hardner]

I personally think pornography--or, to be more specific, a growing trend in certain types of pornography--is arguably not a very good thing, and possibly even damaging on some level. (Though it's a highly complex matter, and I'm not married to my opinion here.)

Seeing as how it's legal now, basically, the only thing left to discuss is:

WHY is it not a good thing, in your eyes ? Or in the general view ?

Yes, it's dirty but... even someone who cleaned washrooms would be regarded differently than somebody who sold their body.

The legality isn't in question and I'm not questioning it.

[Michael Hardner]

Bring on the red light districts, bring on the controls, and maybe we might have a chance of keeping more of these women safe, and more ability to possible redirect them out of the sex trade than infrequently locking them and their clients up.

Why move them out of the sex trade ?

Unless there IS something wrong with it...

Not legally, but... what ? morally ? does that aspect still exist today ?

How does hedonism stack up against capitalism ? We're making a buck here after all, that's what drove this forward - somebody wanting to make a living at this.

[wyly]

As long as you don't take a picture. I've seen people try and they really don't like it.

my daughter did that without my knowing it, caused quite a ruckus, she kept her camera in her purse after that...

some don't want their pictures taken probably for privacy it's not every girl who wants the folks back home seeing her photo on some website...and I'm sure that if someone offered to pay for a photo some would take up the offer...

[Michael Hardner]

Theres a LOT of legal professions that I dont want my daughter in.

But my personal opinion on that does not outweigh the importance of Canada abandoning policies that over-criminalize canadian citizens. We need to shrink the legal/prison system, and this is a good place to start.

Also (correct me if Im wrong here), but in order for your position to make sense, it seems like you would have to believe that legalizing prostitution would make it MORE LIKELY for your daughter to become a prostitute, and Im not sure thats the case... in fact it may very well be the opposite.

My position that I wouldn't want my daughter to be one ? How does that not make sense ?

The question is no longer of legality, but of the profession itself. Look on this thread, and you can see people who tacitly disapprove of the profession, though they agree it should be legal. I suppose I'm one of those.

[wyly]

Prostitutes are considered to be less important human beings. (only by class-biased assholes and moral relativists...but there are a lot of those.)

yup...I recall after the 14 women were slaughtered by Marc Lepine there was candle light walk by women in sympathy for those victims in my home town, men weren't welcome...coincidently at the same time there was a serial killer on the loose in that same city killing prostitutes and the march organizers made no mention of those victims...they just didn't matter...

[wyly]

My position that I wouldn't want my daughter to be one ? How does that not make sense ?

The question is no longer of legality, but of the profession itself. Look on this thread, and you can see people who tacitly disapprove of the profession, though they agree it should be legal. I suppose I'm one of those.

I wouldn't want my daughers in it either but if they made that choice I'd want them to be as safe as possible, they're still my kids regardless of their lifestyle...

[Argus]

From the Star:

Canada’s prostitution laws unconstitutional, court rules

Could this result in an Amsterdamnation of Canada?

No. People seem to forget this was simply one judge's decision. It has no real force until it's at least gone to the court of appeal.

And there are way too many people opposed to legalizing prostitution, on both sides of the political spectrum. The religious right find it morally repugnant and the feminist left find it infuriatingly exploitative of women.

[Argus]

Kind of ruined Herr Harper's little plan of chasing the prostitutes out of their homes and into the cars of the willie pictons of this world.

No matter how stupid the stupid posts are in a particular topic we can always count on Doctor Pothead to take the prize.

[DrGreenthumb]

No matter how stupid the stupid posts are in a particular topic we can always count on Doctor Pothead to take the prize.

OOOh how original you changed my handle, nicely played "Anus."

[ToadBrother]

I said this before and I'll say it again. The sex trade will never be safe. We'll also never get rid of it. The best thing we can do is try and make it the safest we can.

The most interesting thing is, out of curiosity I've been scanning some newspaper website and some comments and with the exception of maybe one or two, the reception has been uniformly positive. Interesting time to be living in Canada.

But that logic applies to every occupation. No amount of occupational safety rules will keep all burger flippers or mechanics safe either.

It's true we won't get rid of all streetwalkers, but reducing the number than are essentially unprotected on the streets, or protected by less-than-desirable groups like biker gangs strikes me as a good thing.

There's no miracles in any of this, but one thing is for sure, by not allowing a legalized option for prostitution, we've essentially made the entire industry, one way or the other, go underground.

I'm sure there's always been murdered prostitutes, but I wonder if Jack the Ripper or Robert Picton would have been as likely in, say, the 18th century, when prostitution tended to be tolerated.

[nicky10013]

No. People seem to forget this was simply one judge's decision. It has no real force until it's at least gone to the court of appeal.

And there are way too many people opposed to legalizing prostitution, on both sides of the political spectrum. The religious right find it morally repugnant and the feminist left find it infuriatingly exploitative of women.

The explicit statement in the ruling said that the law is to be immediately struck down. The law is gone until an appeal states otherwise.

[Michael Hardner]

I wouldn't want my daughters to choose that career path either, but neither do I want them washing dishes, or working at mcDonalds. If

Your daughter comes home and says: Dad, I have two offers: Burger King or Madame Sasha's Parlor of delights. Which should I take ?

Do you care which one she takes, assuming safety is the same ?

[ToadBrother]

My position that I wouldn't want my daughter to be one ? How does that not make sense ?

The question is no longer of legality, but of the profession itself. Look on this thread, and you can see people who tacitly disapprove of the profession, though they agree it should be legal. I suppose I'm one of those.

That's where I sit. I'd love it if prostitution ended forever, but it's clear that no matter how harsh you make the penalties (and some countries have obscenely harsh laws on the matter), the market for sex still survives. I think we've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that prostitution is a indestructible profession, so we should turn our attention to strategies that have some hope of actually making a difference in these womens' lives. The laws, as they stand, do no such thing.

[ToadBrother]

If it were 100% safe, or as safe as you could reasonably expect, would you be in favour or not ?

I wouldn't be, but my objections are pointless if that's what she decides to do. As with her joining the army, once she's an adult, it's no longer my legal interest.

[Argus]

OOOh how original you changed my handle, nicely played "Anus."

Anything I changed about you could only make you seem smarter.

You should thank me.

[Argus]

The explicit statement in the ruling said that the law is to be immediately struck down. The law is gone until an appeal states otherwise.

Yeah, the judge made that point. But the judge doesn't have that power. The Crown will seek a stay and get it. Until an appeals court rules this ruling will have no effect.

[wyly]

I wouldn't be, but my objections are pointless if that's what she decides to do. As with her joining the army, once she's an adult, it's no longer my legal interest.

...I've sit down talks with my son encouraging him to "please never ever join the army"...I've never have done the same with my daughters regarding prostitution...

[Michael Hardner]

I wouldn't be, but my objections are pointless if that's what she decides to do. As with her joining the army, once she's an adult, it's no longer my legal interest.

Right, so you're like me.

I just can't put my finger on what it is about this. Something is just ingrained in me that it's immoral...

[TimG]

There's no miracles in any of this, but one thing is for sure, by not allowing a legalized option for prostitution, we've essentially made the entire industry, one way or the other, go underground.

Question: how many of these working girls would be willing to report their income and collect the HST? I am guessing very few. If we make it legal we have to enforce these laws which would simply drive it underground again. I certainly have no interest in legalizing a business that is allowed to operate 'tax free' for humanitarian reasons.

[ToadBrother]

Question: how many of these working girls would be willing to report their income and collect the HST? I am guessing very few. If we make it legal we have to enforce these laws which would simply drive it underground again. I certainly have no interest in legalizing a business that is allowed to operate 'tax free' for humanitarian reasons.

How many of any group has been willing to report under a new regime? Hell, we're having a political revolution over the HST in BC, and that has only raised the prices on a limited number of items.

How do you enforce tax laws regardless of the target? You have a taxation body like the CCRA or its provincial counterparts that has the power to audit and to compel payment. I'm not sure why prostitutes would be any different than anybody else.

[ToadBrother]

Right, so you're like me.

I just can't put my finger on what it is about this. Something is just ingrained in me that it's immoral...

It's ingrained in most of us, but the real question becomes is the simple fact that it's immoral (a very subjective view, by the way, and one not even shared in all times within our civilization) enough to keep it illegal? Gambling was viewed as immoral by the same Victoria principles and long heavily controlled in many English-speaking jurisdictions. The chief difference was that governments in the US and Canada figured out that there's a lot of money to be made off of vices, and thus opened the floodgates, with the government as the gatekeeper.

My objections to anti-vice laws in large part stem from my own views on the nature of liberties. In a free society, limits on what adults can do must be minimal. The state, in my mind, has no more right to tell someone they can't receive money for sexual favors than it does telling two consenting adults of the same sex what they can do together. That there's an "ick" factor isn't sufficient argument against an activity. What's more, where a policy may actually be doing more harm than good, it becomes doubly difficult to justify its existence.

That my daughter might become a prostitute horrifies me. But there's a point at which her personal decisions, no matter how uncomfortable they make me feel, are no longer decisions I have any power over. It's no different than marrying an abusive man. That's potentially just as wrong, and yet in most jurisdictions, once you hit the age of majority, there's nothing to be done but make your objections known. That's the essential nature of adulthood.

[TimG]

How do you enforce tax laws regardless of the target? You have a taxation body like the CCRA or its provincial counterparts that has the power to audit and to compel payment. I'm not sure why prostitutes would be any different than anybody else.

You completely missed my point. I think that most women who work in the sex trade would refuse to work under the terms that would be required for any legal business operation because they are desperate for money. This means legalizing brothels would not actually solve the stated problem if the existing taxation laws are enforced. That is why the 'legalize it for humanitarian reasons' argument is not as compelling as you might think. Edited September 28, 2010 by TimG

[nicky10013]

You completely missed my point. I think that most women who work in the sex trade would refuse to work under the terms that would be required for any legal business operation because they are desperate for money. This means legalizing brothels would not actually solve the stated problem if the existing taxation laws are enforced. That is why the 'legalize it for humanitarian reasons' argument is not as compelling as you might think.

There are a myriad of countries with legalized prostitution. Is there absolutely any shred of evidence this happens in those countries?

[TimG]

There are a myriad of countries with legalized prostitution. Is there absolutely any shred of evidence this happens in those countries?

I think the onus is on you to provide evidence that legalization actually works. But here is some data:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/12/international/europe/12DUTC.html

Legalization has done nothing to diminish the taboo associated with the sex trade. Prostitutes who are trying to set themselves up as self- employed businesswomen are finding that accountants, banks and health insurance companies want nothing to do with them.

And many experts are worried, too, that the new law is simply pushing a huge number of prostitutes underground, where they are at greater risk of being taken advantage of. This group includes illegal immigrants, who fear being sent out of the country if they register, and Dutch citizens who are not ready to go public with what they do.

...

One of the women who has worked here for about 10 years said that some of the prostitutes simply left the business because they did not want to lose their anonymity by registering with the police and paying taxes.

Others, she said, were still selling sex, but in a more dangerous way. They advertise in local magazines and meet their customers in hotel rooms. To do this, most rely on a pimp for protection.

Edited September 28, 2010 by TimG

[nicky10013]

I think the onus is on you to provide evidence that legalization actually works. But here is some data:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/12/international/europe/12DUTC.html

Nice try. I'm not the person who made the specific claim.