Mayday mayday

[Evening Star]

Compared to the Wikipedia article, I would actually tend to give the socialist phase of India's development more credit for developing the infrastructure that made the recent boom possible.

[capricorn]

Besides which, saying Sharia law exists now - what does that mean ? All religious practices exist where their adherents exist, so... ?

Sharia financial services is in the same league as say, faith based dispute resolution mechanisms or the peculiarities of Jewish divorce. Those financial institutions dispense financial services to Muslims according to the tenets of Sharia law. I have no idea whether Sharia law will extend beyond the provision of financial services. I suppose this will depend on the growth of the Muslim population in Canada.

[Evening Star]

Yeah, that's a long way from any form of Sharia law being imposed on non-Muslim Canadians.

[capricorn]

Yeah, that's a long way from any form of Sharia law being imposed on non-Muslim Canadians.

You know what? I would have a problem if the full force of Sharia law was imposed on our Muslims in Canada. Cue stoning or the death penalty for adultery. It's not so much that I'm worried that Sharia law would impact me (since I'm not Muslim), as much as it could bring harm to my Muslim compatriots.

[Evening Star]

Oh, well yeah, I definitely agree with you there. That's a bit of a stretch from banks being aware of Sharia financial practices though. Stonings etc would still be very illegal under Canadian law.

[M.Dancer]

Oh, well yeah, I definitely agree with you there. That's a bit of a stretch from banks being aware of Sharia financial practices though. Stonings etc would still be very illegal under Canadian law.

I'm pretty sure there is no law forbidding institutions to lend money at zero interest....family law, etc...which is what the Sharia law proponents wanted, binding resolutions in a religious family court, are not allowed.

[msdogfood]

http://www.lowellgreen.com/Home_Page.html

what crap!!!!!!!!!!!.

[RNG]

I challenge you to google "tub girls"

Don't need non of that there Porno-Graffy!!!1!!1

[Michael Hardner]

You know what? I would have a problem if the full force of Sharia law was imposed on our Muslims in Canada.

Then you should rest easy. We're miles from that ever being seriously considered. There are bigger problems to worry aboutg.

[Wild Bill]

This is nonsense. Britain plundered India. It was widely seen as a 'basket case' when the UK left. Since that time, India has made steady progress in many areas: industrial development (a priority for Nehru and something that has taken off even more since economic liberalization), agricultural production (all the way back to Indira Gandhi in the 70s), higher education (IIT), technological innovation, minority rights (also a Nehru priority), women's rights. Nearly everyone knows that India is currently amongst the world's fastest-growing economies and a centre for high-tech industry. It's far from perfect but it would be hard to achieve more in 60 years in a highly multicultural democracy of a billion people that had been left in poverty and has had to contend with hostile neighbours. The changes since the mid-90s alone are incredible (not always for the better - the air is genuinely hard to breathe in some cities).

Nevertheless, if you ask people who have lived there, the utilities are still unreliable and the bribe to get a telephone or a car in a reasonable time is exorbitant!

Britain may or may not have plundered India but at least when they were in charge the trains ran on time! THAT was my point! The Indian culture seems incapable of doing the same.

[Shwa]

Nevertheless, if you ask people who have lived there, the utilities are still unreliable and the bribe to get a telephone or a car in a reasonable time is exorbitant!

Britain may or may not have plundered India but at least when they were in charge the trains ran on time! THAT was my point! The Indian culture seems incapable of doing the same.

And this is a nice segue isn't it? Not to you specifically WB, in general.

I mean, we deplore giving people our style of freedoms because it somehow - inexplicably - infringes on our own freedoms. As IF they are coming here to implelent their own bordered nationality in our midst. Kind of like the Brits did to the Indians and French right?

But not so fast.

The Brits were a major contributor to the Canadian culture - no doubt - but whatever they contributed was always, and is still constantly, being modified by Canadian perspectives and values. The very thing thing that Mr. Green is afraid we are losing is the very thing that spawned our concept of immigration to this country in the first place!

The sorts of old-crank refrains such as the off tune caterwauling we have from the esteemed Mr. Green is as old as immigration itself and we have weathered worse, let me tell you. Or better yet, crack open a history book and take even a marginal read of how Canada survived in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries.

Otherwise, this caterwauling simply becomes mindless borderline xenophobia. And in the grand scheme of things, in these modern times, this simply won't do as anything near the sort of public policy that Canadian values have input into thus far and what the Canadian public has come to expect.

[Wild Bill]

And this is a nice segue isn't it? Not to you specifically WB, in general.

I mean, we deplore giving people our style of freedoms because it somehow - inexplicably - infringes on our own freedoms. As IF they are coming here to implelent their own bordered nationality in our midst. Kind of like the Brits did to the Indians and French right?

But not so fast.

The Brits were a major contributor to the Canadian culture - no doubt - but whatever they contributed was always, and is still constantly, being modified by Canadian perspectives and values. The very thing thing that Mr. Green is afraid we are losing is the very thing that spawned our concept of immigration to this country in the first place!

The sorts of old-crank refrains such as the off tune caterwauling we have from the esteemed Mr. Green is as old as immigration itself and we have weathered worse, let me tell you. Or better yet, crack open a history book and take even a marginal read of how Canada survived in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries.

Otherwise, this caterwauling simply becomes mindless borderline xenophobia. And in the grand scheme of things, in these modern times, this simply won't do as anything near the sort of public policy that Canadian values have input into thus far and what the Canadian public has come to expect.

You apparently have different yardsticks than I do for measuring the worth of a culture. I'm the techie, remember? I respect trains running on time. I don't respect cultures that can't do that. I expect the electricity to run 24/7 and the same for the water. That water is also expected to be reasonably pure.

A hundred years ago the French used to say that countries that couldn't run a decent mail service were not civilized. They were mostly referring to African countries at that time but I totally agree with the principle and frankly, there were times in the 70's when Canada had many problems with its postal service that I was beginning to believe the axiom applied to ourselves!

I also believe a culture should include a civil service that is not corrupt. There should be fireman and equipment if your house catches fire.

If a culture cannot do these things then I value them less, plain and simple. I have no quarrel with people who want to live in such a culture themselves but take exception if they would allow Canada to become more like their old culture in these matters, due to their cultural values and attitudes.

If you want to accuse me of discrimination I would not be surprised. I feel it's important however to have it understood that it has nothing to do with race. Raise a Somalian child in a Scottish Presbyterian family and there would be no reason to suppose that he could not invent a steam engine as well as any other child in that community.

THIS is what I fear losing, Mr. Shwa! I really don't care if accepting so many immigrant cultures adds a statutory holiday to the mix. I really don't believe that Sharia Law will ever gain a foothold in Canada either. However, if too many key areas that control how our system works are staffed by people who do not share our culture sufficiently then gradually our trains will stop running on time, our letters will not be delivered and we might eventually have to pay a bribe to get moved up the list for a new phone!

This last point should really have its own thread but can anyone name any scientific or technological breakthrough that came from a country with a tropical climate? Such a climate influences culture. When you have no fear of freezing and can pick your own food as you need it you tend to have a different world view than a Nicola Tesla growing up in Serbia, where you need to think about growing enough food in the summer to last the winter and building heating systems so you don't freeze to death!

I believe it was British and European culture that built Canada into a country where we are relatively comfortable, with electricity for our lights and our toys and warm housing. We have a medical system that despite its flaws is several quantum levels better than most of the countries on the planet. Western culture is working on cures for diseases and ways to give us all the power we need to further improve our lifestyles without despoiling the planet. Most cultures on this globe have not yet contributed to these goals. All too many find it enough to figure out how use modern weapons to shoot each other.

If the Greens are right that we are all in a "Spaceship Earth" then if you can't keep the engines going, run the lifesupport or navigate then kindly shut up and get the hell out of the way! So far Western culture has done the best at the things we truly need. I fear whatever might dilute it!

[Evening Star]

Nevertheless, if you ask people who have lived there, the utilities are still unreliable and the bribe to get a telephone or a car in a reasonable time is exorbitant!

Britain may or may not have plundered India but at least when they were in charge the trains ran on time! THAT was my point! The Indian culture seems incapable of doing the same.

Both my parents' entire families live there and my parents grew up there. I have visited several times and have noticed the incredible progress. Judging a culture purely on 'whether the trains run on time' while placing less value on things like economic development, whether most people can even access those utilities, education, basic human development and social justice, agricultural production, or technological innovation seems hopelessly blinkered to me. How many of the (non-British) people could even have access to water and electricity under the British?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_India#Famines_under_British_rule

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_in_India#Famines_after_Independence

large scale famines have disappeared from India after independence

Seems a bit more important than whether the trains arrive on time, eh?

[M.Dancer]

Seems a bit more important than whether the trains arrive on time, eh?

In 1966, there was a 'near miss' in Bihar. The USA allocated 900,000 tons of grain to fight the famine that caused 1.5 million deaths.[39] A further 'near miss' food crisis occurred due to drought in Maharashtra in 1970-1973

.

I would bet that having an efficiant railway system goes along way to avert famine. Something to do with transporting graion from A to B.

[Evening Star]

You're right but my point is that the famine situation has improved to the point where there hasn't been a famine in over 35 years, whereas they were more common under British rule. This is something that is documented and demonstrably true, regardless of anyone's anecdotal claims about whether 'trains ran on time' more often under the British or under self-government. I mean, if anyone is trying to claim that the Indian people had better access to electricity and clean water under British rule, he or she is surely playing games!

[Evening Star]

This last point should really have its own thread but can anyone name any scientific or technological breakthrough that came from a country with a tropical climate? Such a climate influences culture. When you have no fear of freezing and can pick your own food as you need it you tend to have a different world view than a Nicola Tesla growing up in Serbia, where you need to think about growing enough food in the summer to last the winter and building heating systems so you don't freeze to death!

http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/HistTopics/Indian_mathematics.html

And these are not on the same scale as, you know, devising the numerical system that is the basis for our entire system of mathematics, but they were in the news recently and they're neat:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/100723/3consumertech/as_india_supercheap_computer

[M.Dancer]

You're right but my point is that the famine situation has improved to the point where there hasn't been a famine in over 35 years, whereas they were more common under British rule.

They seem to be pretty common before British rule too...probably because famines were....ummm...common to India and elsewhere in the world.

But more than anything the British legacy is the civil service and civil engineering. You cannot discount the efficiancies of ports if you want to rely on imported grain to relieve a famine, nor can you discount a working train system to transport it...along with canals to irragate the farmlands

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganga_canal

[Evening Star]

So you agree with Bill then that Indian culture has declined since independence and is therefore demonstrably less worthy of respect than Western, or at least British, cultures because of its inefficiency and corruption, despite evidence that a number of economic and social problems have been tackled with appreciable success? I'm not saying that the British invented famines in India or that they didn't leave anything worthwhile. I would, however, question the idea that British governance was more efficient, effective, or 'civilized'.

[Evening Star]

So you agree with Bill then that Indian culture has declined since independence and is therefore demonstrably less worthy of respect than Western, or at least British, cultures because of its inefficiency and corruption, despite evidence that a number of economic and social problems have been tackled with appreciable success? I'm not saying that the British invented famines in India or that they didn't leave anything worthwhile. I would, however, question the idea that British governance was more efficient, effective, or 'civilized'.

AFAICT, the reason he brought this up on the thread is to argue that we should be concerned about immigration from these cultures.

[Evening Star]

Like, the post I was originally responding to seemed to suggest that India had accomplished nothing since independence but acquire nuclear weapons.

[M.Dancer]

So you agree with Bill then that Indian culture has declined since independence and is therefore demonstrably less worthy of respect than Western, or at least British, cultures because of its inefficiency and corruption, despite evidence that a number of economic and social problems have been tackled with appreciable success? I'm not saying that the British invented famines in India or that they didn't leave anything worthwhile. I would, however, question the idea that British governance was more efficient, effective, or 'civilized'.

Me? I do not agree that India has declined since independence...what a silly proposition! Once they cast off their socialist experiment, India has propelled itself to the forefront of almost every sector...

As far as the Raj is concerned, it was more civilized and more efficiant than what it replaced, namely a sub continent without political cohesion; a motley crew of princley states in a state of perpetual war with each other. In effect the other great thing the British did, they united india.

[Shwa]

You apparently have different yardsticks than I do for measuring the worth of a culture. I'm the techie, remember? I respect trains running on time. I don't respect cultures that can't do that. I expect the electricity to run 24/7 and the same for the water. That water is also expected to be reasonably pure.

The only culture I am measuring is Canada's as suggested in the OP. If you want to discuss trains running on time, electricity 24/7 or pure water, then I guess we introduce relativity into the discussion, because there have been late trains, blackouts and impure water being consumed by the public right here in good old Canada hasn't there Wild Bill?

If you want to use a measurement, try formulating the degrees to which people will advance specious arguments that generalize about a culture and then assign those attributes to a portion of those people in an absolute way. Are you saying that somehow an Indian immigrant contains superpowers that can override the Canadian ethic? We have a culture that can make trains run on time, but cannot resist the awesome super powers of Indian immigrants and their culture. It must be in the curry.

If a culture cannot do these things then I value them less, plain and simple. I have no quarrel with people who want to live in such a culture themselves but take exception if they would allow Canada to become more like their old culture in these matters, due to their cultural values and attitudes.

So now, not only do they have the awesome superpowers to completely turn us into the third world, but our fate lies in their hands. How absurd.

If you want to accuse me of discrimination I would not be surprised. I feel it's important however to have it understood that it has nothing to do with race. Raise a Somalian child in a Scottish Presbyterian family and there would be no reason to suppose that he could not invent a steam engine as well as any other child in that community.

Raise a Somalian child in Canada and you get a Canadian. I like their chances much better that either Somalia or Scotland.

THIS is what I fear losing, Mr. Shwa! I really don't care if accepting so many immigrant cultures adds a statutory holiday to the mix. I really don't believe that Sharia Law will ever gain a foothold in Canada either. However, if too many key areas that control how our system works are staffed by people who do not share our culture sufficiently then gradually our trains will stop running on time, our letters will not be delivered and we might eventually have to pay a bribe to get moved up the list for a new phone!

And yet there is absolutely no reason for you to formulate this bogus reality whatsoever. It actually goes direcly against the accrued experience of Canada. Seriously, even a cursory read of Canadian history will help you out with this.

This last point should really have its own thread but can anyone name any scientific or technological breakthrough that came from a country with a tropical climate? Such a climate influences culture. When you have no fear of freezing and can pick your own food as you need it you tend to have a different world view than a Nicola Tesla growing up in Serbia, where you need to think about growing enough food in the summer to last the winter and building heating systems so you don't freeze to death!

I dunno how about... AGRICULTURE?

I believe it was British and European culture that built Canada into a country where we are relatively comfortable, with electricity for our lights and our toys and warm housing. We have a medical system that despite its flaws is several quantum levels better than most of the countries on the planet. Western culture is working on cures for diseases and ways to give us all the power we need to further improve our lifestyles without despoiling the planet. Most cultures on this globe have not yet contributed to these goals. All too many find it enough to figure out how use modern weapons to shoot each other.

Bill, India isn't moving to Canada bud. Neither is China. Some of those people over there would rather come over here to make their way, but the entire countries aren't moving in.

If the Greens are right that we are all in a "Spaceship Earth" then if you can't keep the engines going, run the lifesupport or navigate then kindly shut up and get the hell out of the way! So far Western culture has done the best at the things we truly need. I fear whatever might dilute it!

Your "fear" is the key concept and that is all it is. And it is an irrational fear with no basis in reality. And all you have to do is pick up a book, like the Illustrated History of Canada; very easy to read, reasonably comprehensive and informative. And I would make a safe wager that many of our immigrants have already picked it up and had a read. Maybe you ought to as well.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Shwa

[Wild Bill]

So you agree with Bill then that Indian culture has declined since independence and is therefore demonstrably less worthy of respect than Western, or at least British, cultures because of its inefficiency and corruption, despite evidence that a number of economic and social problems have been tackled with appreciable success? I'm not saying that the British invented famines in India or that they didn't leave anything worthwhile. I would, however, question the idea that British governance was more efficient, effective, or 'civilized'.

Please don't put words in my mouth! I will agree that India has come a long way but it took a sharp dip when the British left. Again, I'm a techie and I couldn't really care about the emotional values of gaining independence if it means a culture still can't manage the rails or the mails.

The best thing India has done is to become less socialistic! History shows that the more socialistic a country the more erratic services become.

If anything, there is an argument that Canada and other western countries in some way aggravate the problem of countries with more primitive cultures. While I disapprove of excessive Family Reunification and high numbers of bogus refugees the regular immigration channels have often created a "brain drain" from certain countries, like India. In other words, sometimes we are getting the people coming here that could have fixed the services in their home country!

As far as India's level of sophistication today, I would suggest we ask some of the athletes competing in the Commonwealth games. Hopefully the last ditch efforts to fix the toilets and clean up the living quarters were successful but we should not forget that the situation should never have happened in the first place!

Lest anyone thinks that this techie can't see any fault at home, I was never very impressed with Olympic Stadium in Montreal either! A lot of corrupt people made a lot of money building a stadium where every so often pieces of the concrete roof fall on your head!

[Evening Star]

These were your words, Wild Bill:

What people don't want to face is that such situations are NORMAL for India! Since Britain pulled out and gave them independence nothing works. They can't make the utilities reliable or the trains run on time. In vast areas of the country its a miracle if the water keeps flowing from the taps.

What HAVE they accomplished in those 50 years? Well, they got themselves the nuclear bomb! Millions of their people live in squalor but hey! They've got the Nuke! They're in the big boy's club!

if you ask people who have lived there, the utilities are still unreliable and the bribe to get a telephone or a car in a reasonable time is exorbitant!

Britain may or may not have plundered India but at least when they were in charge the trains ran on time! THAT was my point! The Indian culture seems incapable of doing the same.

I respect trains running on time. I don't respect cultures that can't do that. I expect the electricity to run 24/7 and the same for the water. That water is also expected to be reasonably pure…

…I also believe a culture should include a civil service that is not corrupt. There should be fireman and equipment if your house catches fire.

If a culture cannot do these things then I value them less, plain and simple. I have no quarrel with people who want to live in such a culture themselves but take exception if they would allow Canada to become more like their old culture in these matters, due to their cultural values and attitudes.

It seems pretty clear to me that you were stating that India has declined since independence, based on the criteria that matter to you, and that it is not a culture you can respect while British culture is a culture you can respect since they were able to get the trains running on time. The only significant accomplishment with which you credited post-independence India was the acquisition of nuclear weapons. I don't see how I was putting words in your mouth. It also seems that you were ultimately suggesting that we should be concerned about immigration from a country such as India because it could lead to the importation of that culture, which is less worthy of respect.

[Evening Star]

None of my arguments had to do with the emotional value of independence, btw.