Mounties to Recruit for Women and Minorities

[scribblet]

The RCMP have always given preferential treatment to minorities, but this appears to be a more aggressive campaign, as I suppose they were not meeting their quotas using skills and meritocracy. Not to mention the applicants have to be bi-lingual which does cut down the chances for many.

My son always wanted to join the RCMP when in high school, but was told by the school counsellor, and this was around 16 years ago, that he wouldn't be able to get in because of employment equity (affirmative action by any other name). I wrote a letter to the RCMP asking them to confirm this, they did, it was true. I got a long reply explaining the process, I'm sure I still have it around somewhere, but it was a written letter, not an email.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/mounties-to-recruit-for-women-and-minorities/article1722639/

Under new hiring benchmarks set this month, senior Mounties say that new classes of recruits should comprise 30 per cent women, 20 per cent visible minorities and 10 per cent aboriginals, The Globe has learned. If the benchmarks are met, it would be the first time “minority” hires would actually represent a majority of RCMP recruits.

These benchmarks amount to a near doubling, tripling and quintupling of the respective categories of cadets recruited last year. Figures show that, under less ambitious employment-equity goals then, the RCMP graduated classes that were 17 per cent women, 7 per cent visible minorities and 2 per cent aboriginal.

cont...

[Smallc]

RCMP regular members do not have to be bilingual in the vast majority of positions.

Be proficient in English or French;

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/recruiting-recrutement/selection/requirements-exigences-eng.htm

Edited September 24, 2010 by Smallc

[Evening Star]

Under new hiring benchmarks set this month, senior Mounties say that new classes of recruits should comprise 30 per cent women, 20 per cent visible minorities and 10 per cent aboriginals, The Globe has learned. If the benchmarks are met, it would be the first time “minority” hires would actually represent a majority of RCMP recruits.

Wait, I'm not sure I follow. Presumably, some of the visible minorities and aboriginals are women too, right? So this wouldn't necessarily add up to over 50% of hires?

[Michael Hardner]

Yes, of course. I'm sure white males will still make up very close to 50%.

Now... that makes one scratch one's head as to why everybody would tell Scriblett's son not to bother applying... unless there were mitigating factors here.

[Evening Star]

I wondered about that too tbh.

[Evening Star]

(Besides, if one were to add up the number of all women (already over 50% of the country AFAIK) plus all male visible minorities and aboriginals in Canada, that would surely add up to a majority of the population!)

[scribblet]

No mitigating factors,so don't read something into it that wasn't there, it was just the usual high school counsellor, and she was right as she knew as I knew then, that Employment Equity was a huge factor, still is with the feds. I will try to fish out the reply I got from the RCMP. He did go to college and also took the law enforcement course so got into the OPP. The feds have always discriminated in favour of minorities, we all know that there are federal jobs where only minorities can apply.

Obviously the employment equity factor isn't working, they haven't been able to recruit enough non whites, so are becoming more aggressive. I can tell you, this hiring and EE can get very convoluted as they twist themselves into pretzels to accommodate and hand out more points in the interview process.

Don't forget the aptitude testing where white males have to score higher than the others just to get an interview. I think you'll find that such scoring probably still applies. In other words entrance exams were relaxed in order to fill hiring quotas. I'm not up on it now, so can't say if they still do it or not.

this is fromn 1996

http://business.highbeam.com/5587/article-1G1-30405889/rcmp-hiring-biases-now-official-visible-minorities

The Royal Canadian Mounted Police did not become world-famous by placing sex and skin colour above brains and brawn, but that is the hiring policy that will craft their new image for the next century. Solicitor General Herb Gray admitted in a letter in April to Edmonton computer consultant Barry Ceminchuk that the RCMP routinely passes over white males to employ less qualified but genetically-correct candidates: women, visible minorities and Indians.

In a joint report in March, RCMP Commissioner Phil Murray and Canadian Human Rights Commission (CHRC) boss Max Yalden outlined RCMP hiring quotas with unexpected precision. Based on historic applicant and demographic …

Edited September 24, 2010 by scribblet

[Topaz]

Is there a height requirement?

[Smallc]

Is there a height requirement?

No.

[bill_barilko]

Is there a height requirement?

Maybe not now but 15+ years ago maybe there was.

[Shwa]

No mitigating factors,so don't read something into it that wasn't there, it was just the usual high school counsellor, and she was right as she knew as I knew then, that Employment Equity was a huge factor, still is with the feds. I will try to fish out the reply I got from the RCMP. He did go to college and also took the law enforcement course so got into the OPP.

Yep, I had a step-brother in Ottawa face the same sort of situation around the same time.

The feds have always discriminated in favour of minorities, we all know that there are federal jobs where only minorities can apply.

Incorrect. There wouldn't be a need for EE if the feds had "always discriminated in favor of minorities." I suppose the same would be for jobs where only women need apply too. Interesting that in the OP, most of the targeted recruits will be women and yet this has become secondary to "minorities in your post." What gives?

Obviously the employment equity factor isn't working, they haven't been able to recruit enough non whites, so are becoming more aggressive. I can tell you, this hiring and EE can get very convoluted as they twist themselves into pretzels to accommodate and hand out more points in the interview process

.

Does it say the women have to be non-white to be recruited?

Don't forget the aptitude testing where white males have to score higher than the others just to get an interview. I think you'll find that such scoring probably still applies. In other words entrance exams were relaxed in order to fill hiring quotas. I'm not up on it now, so can't say if they still do it or not.

Aptitude testing on what? Cultural practices of Northern Saskatchewan Cree or Asian immigrants in Vancouver?

Edited September 25, 2010 by Shwa

[Wilber]

Join a municipal police force. Many of them pay better and have better benefits. Downside, advancement is slower because of their size and everyone wants to work for them.

[scribblet]

Aptitude testing

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/recruiting-recrutement/selection/rpab-btatpg-eng.htm

When I say the feds have 'always' disciminated in favour of minorities I should amend that to say since EE.

http://www.canada.com/national/story.html?id=8b38e8a9-f7de-460b-9bd7-723991e9d12e

A major federal department has temporarily banned the hiring of able-bodied white men in an unusual move critics say could spark a backlash against the very disadvantaged groups it is meant to help.

Managers in the Public Works department must hire only visible minorities, women, aboriginals and the disabled, except with written permission from their superiors, David Marshall, the deputy minister, ordered in an e-mail circulated yesterday.

http://www.fact.on.ca/newpaper/vs990917.htm

When Canadian universities set out to hire faculty, the message is clear: while merit is important, the deciding factor may well be gender, race or physical disability.

Some institutions, including the University of B.C. and Simon Fraser University, even tell men not to bother applying for certain positions, or to expect to earn less than members of so-called equity groups.

There was a case this year about a woman not being able to apply for a job designated for aboriginals only, which caused the gov't to state they will look into hiring practices.

Remember, technically under EE an employer is supposed to give the job to a target group member if all other things are equal, but this didn't work so employers including the gov't became more aggressive, resulting in 'reverse discrimination'.

[Wild Bill]

Yes, of course. I'm sure white males will still make up very close to 50%.

Now... that makes one scratch one's head as to why everybody would tell Scriblett's son not to bother applying... unless there were mitigating factors here.

Of course there are, Michael! There is always the official line and then what happens in the real world.

Most likely, the Mounties get nowhere near the full quota of applicants. Since they already perceive they have an imbalance of women and minorities, this would mean that they must fill women and minority quotas FIRST!

Folks involved in the process would know this so it makes perfect sense to tell the young lad not to bother. They know that it takes time to process and hire newbies. They know that the overall quota is ALWAYS larger than they actually will take! The odds are that they just won't get around to hiring Scriblett's son. Just searching for enough women and minorities will take all the time and resources.

Particularly when the assumption is likely wrong that they even get enough women and minorities applying in the first place! Those groups historically don't seem to be attracted to the RCMP. To assume that there are thousands of disadvantaged people applying every day to be a Mountie and walking away unhappy due to discrimination is a bit of a stretch.

[scribblet]

Now... that makes one scratch one's head as to why everybody would tell Scriblett's son not to bother applying... unless there were mitigating factors here.

I didn't say 'everybody' I said a school counsellor, I also said I wrote to the RCMP who confirmed their practices, it was true then, and is true now, so why bother, the OPP paid better and he didn't have to to go to the wilds of Saskatchewan or wherever. LOL

Yes, they fill quotas first. All the applicants who pass the aptitude testing are put into certain boxes and moved on to another box for when needed. A target group member who passed the aptitude test would be immediately moved up in line, the white male would be held back. He could be held back until they didn't need to fill the quota or no one else was available. I don't know now how it's done, probably much the same, don't forget under EE companies could ask and keep track of target groups. I could run an SQL query anytime and tell you what % of the workforce was disabled, south asian, or whatever. ( no it wasn't the RCMP )

Edited September 25, 2010 by scribblet

[P. McGee]

Preferential hiring to compensate for demographic imbalances has never really made sense to me on any level. Overhiring in favor of certain groups as if to make up for lost time seems to be particularly asanine. Eventually the older workers retire and you are left with an imbalance in the other direction. Police forces in particular would do better to focus on weeding out boneheads from the pool of recruits.

[Michael Hardner]

Of course there are, Michael! There is always the official line and then what happens in the real world.

Right. And, so far the 'official line' has OVER stated the importance of this program, from what we've seen in this thread.

Most likely, the Mounties get nowhere near the full quota of applicants. Since they already perceive they have an imbalance of women and minorities, this would mean that they must fill women and minority quotas FIRST!

First, I typed that your post here didn't make sense, then I understood what you were getting at so I agreed, but then I read the post again and see that you're wrong. But your confusion is understandable, as I myself changed this post twice.

It's percentage of new RECRUITS. So they're still hiring 40%+ white males.

Folks involved in the process would know this so it makes perfect sense to tell the young lad not to bother. They know that it takes time to process and hire newbies. They know that the overall quota is ALWAYS larger than they actually will take! The odds are that they just won't get around to hiring Scriblett's son. Just searching for enough women and minorities will take all the time and resources.

Particularly when the assumption is likely wrong that they even get enough women and minorities applying in the first place! Those groups historically don't seem to be attracted to the RCMP. To assume that there are thousands of disadvantaged people applying every day to be a Mountie and walking away unhappy due to discrimination is a bit of a stretch.

Your post makes sense, however it's based on the assumption that the percentages are goals for the entire RCMP and not for recruits.

[Michael Hardner]

Now... that makes one scratch one's head as to why everybody would tell Scriblett's son not to bother applying... unless there were mitigating factors here.

I didn't say 'everybody' I said a school counsellor,

Ok... then why did you quote this person ? Surely you were trying to convey that there was some validity to the idea that white males needn't apply ? If not, then what was the point ?

I also said I wrote to the RCMP who confirmed their practices, it was true then, and is true now, so why bother, the OPP paid better and he didn't have to to go to the wilds of Saskatchewan or wherever. LOL

What did the letter say then ? Given that they would still be hiring at least 40% (and mathematically possibly up to 70%) white males, I can't understand what they could have possibly written to dissuade your son.

What is your response ?

Yes, they fill quotas first. All the applicants who pass the aptitude testing are put into certain boxes and moved on to another box for when needed. A target group member who passed the aptitude test would be immediately moved up in line, the white male would be held back. He could be held back until they didn't need to fill the quota or no one else was available. I don't know now how it's done, probably much the same, don't forget under EE companies could ask and keep track of target groups. I could run an SQL query anytime and tell you what % of the workforce was disabled, south asian, or whatever. ( no it wasn't the RCMP )

So if they need a hundred new recruits in a given year, and they don't have enough minorities, women and aboriginals, they will only hire 40 in total ?

You say you don't know how it's done but what even makes sense in the context of your OP ?

[scribblet]

I mentioned what said years ago to make the point that affirmative action was in force that long ago, and obviously it hasn't worked well enough so now their practices are becoming more aggressive. I posted some links earlier to show what is happening now.

Discrimination in hiring has been firmly rooted in the RCMP, for a long time. A few years ago, then RCMP Commissioner Phil Murray and Human Rights Commissioner Max Yalden decreed that the force should consist of: 20% women, 4.5% aboriginals and 8.3% visible minorities. Solicitor General Herb Gray admitted at that time that white males are now being passed over in favour of less qualified applicants who fit the quotas, and confirmed it in a reply to a letter I wrote to him at that time.

I don't even know if I have the original letter anymore, I took a quick look through some files but none of the old gov't letters are there, I either threw them out or filed them some place else. I had some research comparing education requirements in other countries for some jobs e.g. a doctor and engineer - they are not there either.

I would bet that the original 'problem' still exists, that of the majority of applicants are not target groups.

I also posted this link earlier from 1996 which confirms what was happening.

http://business.highbeam.com/5587/article-1G1-30405889/rcmp-hiring-biases-now-official-visible-minorities

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/11/25/national-post-editorial-board-finding-the-best-mounties.aspx

and here

For too long, many good potential recruits have not even bothered to apply for RCMP positions, knowing that since they were not one of the favoured groups being sought by the sensitivity guidelines of the moment, their chances of being accepted were slim to nil.

Note that the Feds have recently ordered a review of its affirmative action policy one day after a woman complained that she couldn't apply for a public service position because she's Caucasian. ( wasn't the RCMP)

[Shwa]

Aptitude testing

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/recruiting-recrutement/selection/rpab-btatpg-eng.htm

Where on this page does it say that white males have to score higher to get an interview? It doesn't. It also does not say that they will relax the aptitude test for women - they even have a picture of a female RCMP officer on the page. Can you supply a little more information about how the RCMP relaxed entrance exams for everyone else, but required white males to score higher to be considered? You say you don't know "if they still do it" but I think it important to establish that they did it in the first place or people won't believe you.

There was a case this year about a woman not being able to apply for a job designated for aboriginals only, which caused the gov't to state they will look into hiring practices.

Yes. And according to your OP story they have: "Under new hiring benchmarks set this month..."

Remember, technically under EE an employer is supposed to give the job to a target group member if all other things are equal, but this didn't work so employers including the gov't became more aggressive, resulting in 'reverse discrimination'.

Give what job? They are talking about a yearly slate of recruits, not "jobs." I understand your concerns, but in this case I believe you are making much ado about nothing. There is no "reverse discrimination" going on here, simply an orientation of the recruiting campaign for the RCMP. Big deal.

Edited September 26, 2010 by Shwa

[Shwa]

Preferential hiring to compensate for demographic imbalances has never really made sense to me on any level. Overhiring in favor of certain groups as if to make up for lost time seems to be particularly asanine. Eventually the older workers retire and you are left with an imbalance in the other direction.

Recruitment targets are set, with attrition factored in, and are designed to reflect the community demographic f a particular area where possible. "Overhiring in favor of certain groups..." is likely the result of the rapidly changing urban demographic landscape to compensate.

Police forces in particular would do better to focus on weeding out boneheads from the pool of recruits.

I am sure testing does some weeding out, but it would be more useful to weed out the boneheads out from the active membership. It is much more difficult to weed out when the recruit or probationary member is on their best behaviour.

[scribblet]

Of course they are not going to say anything on their pages about how target groups are treated, or to admit that their hiring is quota driven, anyway you look at it they have been and will try to tilt the scales in favour of target groups.

There was discussion some time ago about hiring practices and I can find many references to newspaper articles, but links often go stale. This piece references a 2005 article about the EE policy.

http://torontonews.wordpress.com/2007/09/17/pc-destroying-effective-policing/

“As the National Post reported on June 27, 2005, the so-called shortfall of qualified applicants to the RCMP academy was due to its gender and racial hiring quotas that required white males to score 20% higher than women and 33% higher than visible minorities on aptitude tests in order to be accepted. For a while in the mid-90’s, with unmet racial and female recruitment targets co-existing with a five year backlog of Caucasian male applicants, the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) had a quiet “no white males” policy.

http://thesheaf.com/2010/03/16/white-male-for-hire/

The Link (Concordia University)

MONTREAL (CUP) — When the Royal Canadian Mounted Police caught flak in 1996 for imposing a freeze on hiring any more white males, then-RCMP spokesperson Gilles Moreau came quickly to the force’s defence.

“You cannot call it discrimination,” he said. “In my knowledge of United Nations declarations, you can have employment equity policies to make up for past discrimination.”

Racially targeted hiring results in it's own problems, so race and ethnicity should not be factors in hiring decisions, only merit, skill sets and abilities.

[Argus]

Yes, of course. I'm sure white males will still make up very close to 50%.

Now... that makes one scratch one's head as to why everybody would tell Scriblett's son not to bother applying... unless there were mitigating factors here.

Let me put it to you in raw numbers (which I've pulled out of my ass but which are certainly adequate for the situation)

Number of positions open to black women 100

Number of black women wanting those positions - 3

Number of positions open to lesbians 100

Number of lesbians wanting those positions - 5

Number of positions open to 5 ft tall asian men - 100

Number of asian men wanting those positions - 2

Number of positions open to white men 100

Number of white men wanting those positions - 100,000

So if you're a white male you need to get basically perfect marks in high school, perfect marks in the preparatory security courses you will take at college, volunteer for a dozen different jobs which will gain you experience you can cite on your resume, then get nearly perfect marks on all the RCMP entrance exams, both psychological and physical. You need, in short, to spend years of effort to prepare.

If you're a black woman you just have to show up. "Which side of dis gun ting do I point at ju, mon?"

[Argus]

Maybe not now but 15+ years ago maybe there was.

Yes, at one point it was thought that a muscular six foot 3, two hundred and thirty pound male could break up bar fights more easily than 110 pound, five foot tall women. But they've since learned that you can make up for that by simply sending ten squad cars instead of one or two. So there was really no point in hiring burly, muscular men.

[Argus]

Join a municipal police force. Many of them pay better and have better benefits. Downside, advancement is slower because of their size and everyone wants to work for them.

Most of them also have strong "equity" programs.

Funny thing about the word equity - it really means inequity, treating people differently.