Ignatieff needs lesson in statesmanship

[BubberMiley]

It tells me the left is trying to keep him quiet.

You certainly have no issues stereotyping people.

Would you have a problem if someone replaced your use of "the left" with say "jews", "women" or "gays"?

Are you that blind to recognize your own baseless and broad hatred of a large group of people.

[Mr007]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5i1E_1nIlrO-y3VJYKwc4Sm-GsmAA

As reported by Robert Fife on CTV, the Portuguese delegation gleefully waved press clippings of Ignatieff's statement, pointing out that even Canada's opposition does not think Canada deserves to win the seat.

Oh, and thanks for your self appointment as capricorn watchdog. No doubt this will ensure that my posts will be read and appreciated by more guests and forum members

__________________

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[betsy]

So we gt a chair on the UNSC and we probably vote the way the US will probably ask us to and not what may be what is best for Canada.

Do you honestly think all these countries vote without any ulterior motives at all?

Harper does not blindly follow the USA. He objects....in a diplomatic way, I must stress....unlike the two consecutive LIberal PM we've had. To whom do you think that speech against protectionism was really aimed at?

Just so happens our values are more similar with USA instead of let's say.....Russia.....or Libya.

Whether we like it or not, USA and Canada are belly-button-tied.

Edited September 26, 2010 by betsy

[betsy]

You bet it does. I want someone who will actually respect the institutions and respect the reason why the UN is here in the first place. I don't want it in the hands of ideologues who only want it right now because they can use it politically in the future.

Quite frankly I want us in that council seat for the simple reason that if we are to get involved with it one way or another, get bilked by, and be meddled with by this, which in my view is a kangaroo organization....I'd rather we get a say! A huge, huge say!

I don't want it in the hands of ideologues who only want it right now because they can use it politically in the future.

Phoooey. What ideologues do you think rule right now?

Climate Change. Immigration. Sexual Orientation.

The UN is more than that.

Yeah. It's a farce. A very, very expensive farce!

Where countries like China and Libya get to lecture, castigate and even impose sanctions for human rights violations.

Where all the usual known enemies of Israel can all gang up together and act as "referee" in wars between Israel and any one of them!

Oh and yeah, reminds me of Ignatieff, jumping in during the Israel-Lebanon war to publicly lash out at Israel!

Where wealthy countries like Canada made promises to ship generic drugs to Africa....and never kept its promise! The Liberals using this kangaroo organization for poilitical gains and score points. Shows you that's how seriously the Liberals regard this organization.

Edited September 26, 2010 by betsy

[charter.rights]

Oh and yeah, reminds me of Ignatieff, jumping in during the Israel-Lebanon war to publicly lash out at Israel!

Israel is a terrorist state by any measure. The only reason the US does not bomb them or let the Arabs do it is because they need a friendly in the Middle East to keep the door open to oil and new American export markets. Without that wedge, Russia and China would have control of the exports and imports corridor and the US would lose its position as a world power.

[Argus]

nonsense - Harper Conservative policies have eroded... seriously eroded... the positioning of Canada within the international arena. Pointing it out is most apropos.

Canada didn't HAVE a position in the "international arena". We did our best to not take positions on anything which might have offended anyone. The only time we ever condemned anything was when we were sure everyone else in the world was also condemning it; ie South Africa.

Now Canada has taken some positions based on honour and integrity, on what's right. I can see how this would horrify the ultra-lefties and the anti-semites (which many of the ultra lefties are nowadays).

[Argus]

. As for Ignatieff saying the Harper government doesn't deserve a security council seat, he's absolutely right. I've gone over this before, but this government has been an absolutely disaster on the international stage.

You mean because the Tories have failed to abstain on the dozens of routine we-hate-Israel motions the Muslims insist on putting to a vote every year?

[Argus]

Maternal Health without abortion was garbage and every single one of our G8 partners said so.

Maybe in Nickyland, where you get to create everyone's position for them. In reality NONE of them said so. Your heroine Clinton whined about it - even though her own government had just agreed to a huge health care reform which promised absolutely not one cent for abortion. But I don't think hypocrites like her deserve much notice. Abortion is illegal in most of Africa, so do tell us how important it would be for us to go in there advocating and paying for abortion, hmm?

The economic crisis they didn't see coming and had to be forced to stimulate the economy.

Actually, Harper was talking about an impending crisis many months earlier, and the only reason they had to stimulate the economy was the opposition were almost literally screaming and throwing themselves off tall buildings. Didn't Ignatieff and Layton both threaten to set themselves on fire in the middle of parliament hill if the government didn't spend billions on incentives?

The bank tax had far more opponents than just Canada

Oddly, not many of them seemed willing to say so publicly. But I understand you have your secret sources.

and the only trade barrier removed by Harper has been with Columbia which is going to do next to nothing for our economy.

But at least they haven't been implementing new trade barriers, like so many others have been advocating.

To add to that, he's made partisan attacks at international events which no one understands.

Name one.

He completely tarnhised Canadian neutrality in the middle east by openly supporting Israel

You mean he sided with the democratic nation and not the corrupt, theocratic killers of the Muslim world? That's a good thing, you know. Though perhaps YOU don't.

[Argus]

Just the way the Tories gave back a billion to the US lumber industry, the way the fighter jets are being handled and why we needed them etc.

The fighter jets? You do realize that whole issue is a false issue, right? It is a created political issue out of nothing.

The Liberals contributed a hundred million bucks towards the creation of a joint fighter. And now the tories have followed through and are trying to buy it. Where is the issue? If the Liberals had won the last election there's no question --- what am I saying. The Liberals wouldn't have moved to replace the old fighters until they were rusting out of the skies!

But in ten years when they moved to start replacing them, they'd have bought the same bird.

[Argus]

Like I said, I'd rather have people on the UNSC who actually want to move forward and to speak to issues rather than a government who only sees political gain out of it.

Like, uh, Uganda and Nigeria, right?

[Argus]

Seriously, representation on the world' most powerful decision making body requires more than near accomplished parrotting of one big superpower. As, given the earlier illustrated recent international record, the rest of the world could see Canada's international stance.

You talk like the nations on the security council put weighty thinking into their positions, and that Canada wouldn't qualify.

The fact is that the security council slots are routinely handed out to nations which sell their votes to the highest bidder. You think Uganda cares much about whatever international issues of importance come up? You think they're deciding how their vote is based on ANYTHING but what the big powers promise them in exchange? Grow up.

[Argus]

[quote name='Wild Bill' date='24 September 2010 - 08:14 AM' timestamp='1285330482' post='582451'

How can you consider a country to sit on the Security Council if it does not have the resources to actually help deal with security issues? You might not expect it to take the lead but certainly you would expect a country to be able to give a significant contribution.

Like Uganda? Like Bosnia? Like Gabon?

[Argus]

How is the General Assembly foolish in the context of Uganda and Panama having more respect for the UN than Harper?

Because Panama and Uganda sell their votes, as to most of the third world countries, in exchange for money, preferential trade agreements, investments, aid, etc.

Japan, for example, buys the votes of Caribbean countries on whaling. Rich Muslim oil states buy the votes of most of Africa on Israeli resolutions.

[Argus]

Israel is a terrorist state by any measure.

Well, that's what all the anti-Semites and Islamists seem to think.

So you're in good company. Depending on one's definition of "good", of course.

[nicky10013]

Maybe in Nickyland, where you get to create everyone's position for them. In reality NONE of them said so. Your heroine Clinton whined about it - even though her own government had just agreed to a huge health care reform which promised absolutely not one cent for abortion. But I don't think hypocrites like her deserve much notice. Abortion is illegal in most of Africa, so do tell us how important it would be for us to go in there advocating and paying for abortion, hmm?

Ahahaha, so it happened, you're just trying to downplay that it happened.

Actually, Harper was talking about an impending crisis many months earlier, and the only reason they had to stimulate the economy was the opposition were almost literally screaming and throwing themselves off tall buildings. Didn't Ignatieff and Layton both threaten to set themselves on fire in the middle of parliament hill if the government didn't spend billions on incentives?

No he didn't. During the campaign multiple times he said Canada was safe from recession because our banks were safe. It doesn't take an idiot to realize that if the US goes under, so will we. But there he went, denying there was a problem.

Oddly, not many of them seemed willing to say so publicly. But I understand you have your secret sources.

Brazil, Russia, India, China. Just a little bit more bargaining power than Canada has.

But at least they haven't been implementing new trade barriers, like so many others have been advocating.

I can't think of anyone wanting to implement trade barriers.

Name one.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/663961

You mean he sided with the democratic nation and not the corrupt, theocratic killers of the Muslim world? That's a good thing, you know. Though perhaps YOU don't.

Despite whatever ideological underpinnings you have in common with Israel, completely ignoring their sketchy at best record on their own human rights, the fact is in a regional conflict such as that, if you want to remain an honest broker, something Canada has always tried to be, one can't take sides. Period. End of story. Then again, since you do take such positions from an ideological standpoint I suppose I can't make you understand that.

[nicky10013]

Well, that's what all the anti-Semites and Islamists seem to think.

So you're in good company. Depending on one's definition of "good", of course.

So democracy good, islam bad, despite how bad of a record on you know, human rights, the democracy actually has?

[nicky10013]

Because Panama and Uganda sell their votes, as to most of the third world countries, in exchange for money, preferential trade agreements, investments, aid, etc.

Japan, for example, buys the votes of Caribbean countries on whaling. Rich Muslim oil states buy the votes of most of Africa on Israeli resolutions.

Proof?

[nicky10013]

You talk like the nations on the security council put weighty thinking into their positions, and that Canada wouldn't qualify.

The fact is that the security council slots are routinely handed out to nations which sell their votes to the highest bidder. You think Uganda cares much about whatever international issues of importance come up? You think they're deciding how their vote is based on ANYTHING but what the big powers promise them in exchange? Grow up.

Proof? You're making a LOT of really dubious claims here. I'd back them up with some proof.

[Wild Bill]

Like Uganda? Like Bosnia? Like Gabon?

Argus, what the hell is going on? You quoted a post that I never made! Has someone cracked my password and is pretending to be me?

[Argus]

Ahahaha, so it happened, you're just trying to downplay that it happened.

You said every one of our G8 allies were screaming about it and in reality one of them kind of mentioned it.

No he didn't. During the campaign multiple times he said Canada was safe from recession because our banks were safe.

Cite?

I can't think of anyone wanting to implement trade barriers.

You apparently haven't been following the news much.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/663961

That? Big deal. I thought from your words that he had gotten on the microphone before the general assembly and attacked the Liberals before a bunch of confused foreigners.

Despite whatever ideological underpinnings you have in common with Israel, completely ignoring their sketchy at best record on their own human rights, the fact is in a regional conflict such as that, if you want to remain an honest broker, something Canada has always tried to be, one can't take sides. Period.

Uh huh, which is why, whenever there are peace talks, it's the United States behind them, right? The fact is Canada was never an "honest broker". We never had any influence, and our position was taken solely to placate the Muslim crowd in Canada, and the Muslim league nations which had money.

[Argus]

So democracy good, islam bad, despite how bad of a record on you know, human rights, the democracy actually has?

If you cared one single thing about human rights records and human rights abuses you wouldn't even ask that question.

[nicky10013]

If you cared one single thing about human rights records and human rights abuses you wouldn't even ask that question.

Of course I would. Democracies aren't automatically exempt from being called on their abuses. They've committed numerous war crimes like using white phosphorous and they have a policy of bulldozing entire apartment blocks of people who have fought Israeli soldiers. My friend went to Lebanon. His old family home which was destroyed by Israeli shells was near the Israeli border. He went back and was shot at by Israel soldiers from their side with absolutely no provocation.

I think Israel has the right to exist. I think Israel has the right to defend itself. However, to posit the absolutely naive theory that since Israel doesn't comit war crimes or human rights abuses because it's democracy is absolutely laughable.

[nicky10013]

You said every one of our G8 allies were screaming about it and in reality one of them kind of mentioned it.

http://www2.macleans.ca/2010/03/17/harpers-g8-maternal-health-plan/

Cite?

You apparently haven't been following the news much.

Which news stories? I notice you never cited anything I ask you to cite. Why don't you start with this.

That? Big deal. I thought from your words that he had gotten on the microphone before the general assembly and attacked the Liberals before a bunch of confused foreigners.

Oh, so his formal G8 news conference lambasting Ignatieff to confused reporters doesn't matter, but the GA does. Gotcha.

Uh huh, which is why, whenever there are peace talks, it's the United States behind them, right? The fact is Canada was never an "honest broker". We never had any influence, and our position was taken solely to placate the Muslim crowd in Canada, and the Muslim league nations which had money.

Ahahah the US is behind them, but look how far they get.

[Argus]

Argus, what the hell is going on? You quoted a post that I never made! Has someone cracked my password and is pretending to be me?

Actually, the editor seems to be acting strangely. I don't know what you're seeing, but to me it looks like the words I've quoted you as saying are virtually identical to my own. Ie, your quote is "Like Uganda, Like bosnia, lik". I thought I had made an error, but when I clicked on edit to put in your actual quote the actual quote came up instead How can you consider a country to sit on the Security Council if it does not have the resources to actually help deal with security issues? You might not expect it to take the lead but certainly you would expect a country to be able to give a significant contribution.

Its kinda weird. The words are there, but they're not displaying.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The UN is a farce at best, a travesty of democracy at worst. The security council has a trump card they play at will, and no nation elects a representative to the assembly. Looking to that group of appointed mouth pieces for any kind of justice or democracy is an exercise in futility.

This nation of Canada needs to realize the limitations of the current system. Certain economic forays in the recent past have troublesome implications, the WTO and other organizations are powers unto themselves and have successfully placed economic considerations ahead of the interests of citizens. The entire financial industry is beginning to stand even further away from the control of national interests in favour of a more business friendly matrix, in short democracy is under not the mere threat of attack but instead in reality democracy has been, is and will be under siege for the foreseeable future. It appears the pendulum has once again begun to swing, change is underway.

Look at the veritable plethora of international organizations that this and damned near every nation on earth has become members of or signatories too this thing or that thing. The cost of these bureaucracies is staggering to say the least, and those things are paid with tax dollars, we all pay for all of it all of the time. Imagine how much waste there is world wide on this utter nonsense. We all need to get our crap together and start demanding more effeciency within the system and start eliminating positions from the top down while working on means and methods of service deliveries. We need to get a handle on this and the sooner the better.