Do the conservatives want to lose the long gun vote?

[Martin Chriton]

If the bill fails they can spin it to the rural folks they tried but the NDP/Liberal parties of Toronto are out of touch. If the registry is killed they face potential backlash from those in larger cities.

From what I see it's in the Conservatives best interest for it to fail.

Thoughts?

[Jack Weber]

The Conservatives pitting rural and urban voters against each other???

No way!!!!!

[waldo]

If the bill fails they can spin it to the rural folks they tried but the NDP/Liberal parties of Toronto are out of touch. If the registry is killed they face potential backlash from those in larger cities.

From what I see it's in the Conservatives best interest for it to fail.

Thoughts?

there is an element of speculation that holds, yes, the Harper Conservatives actually want the fake private members bill to fail - to have the Opposition vote it down. There is no single rallying point for the rural 'base', one the Conservatives so vehemently associate with the wave of their 10% distributions... the one that is so sure to generate monies, that they're simply killing off a 'golden goose' income generator.

however, the urban versus rural divide is significant... I doubt the Harper Conservatives actually want to be saddled with the imagery of being the party that killed the gun registry... notwithstanding Jack Layton's NDPs attempts to usurp that crown. Perhaps a 'deal' is in the works - one that allows "Jack's touted compromises" to be used by the Conservatives as a betterment instrument to improve, to keep the gun registry... to save face with the rural base.

[Wild Bill]

The Conservatives pitting rural and urban voters against each other???

No way!!!!!

I dunno, Jack. Looks to me like the rural/urban split is simply there by itself!

I think it exists because governments follow the numbers. They kowtow to urban voters 'cuz that's where the votes are! If there is a conflict from an urban issue hurting rural folks, politicians screw the rural vote without a second's thought!

It's not just that politicians follow the votes. They also know that even if urban voters become aware that an issue would hurt country folks they just don't care!

I would think that living in Beamsville as you do you would have been well aware that this is the way things work! Look at how the Niagara Escarpment Commission and whichever party is in Queens Park always pass laws to "protect the Greenland". They say they are preserving farmland by making it illegal to sell a farm for any purpose other than to continue farming.

They have to know that nobody can make a living anymore farming in that area! The last cannery has closed up! Farmers let orchards die off and fields lie fallow because it costs more to keep them up than the money from any crop.

Farmers essentially are screwed twice! First by not being able to make a living and second by not being able to sell off the equity in their land to go do something else!

Still, it sure sells well in Toronto! Those urban voters can feel all warm and fuzzy thinking they're preserving greenspace and "saving the Planet"!

With laws like these, no wonder there's a rural/urban divide!

[charter.rights]

They have to know that nobody can make a living anymore farming in that area! The last cannery has closed up! Farmers let orchards die off and fields lie fallow because it costs more to keep them up than the money from any crop.

The "old way" of farming is dead for sure. But the new way - organics, specialty markets and local client based farming IS profitable and is reviving farming.

Globalization has put a nail in the coffin of old time farmers because they were not used to having to compete for their markets, and because old farming methods depend heavily on oil and oil products to survive. The new versions are less dependent on oil and more dependent on knowing their markets, and pricing within reach. Where I live in southern Ontario, there are lots of family run organic farms that are doing extremely well. On e chicken farmer we buy from just bought their 5th house to "put away' for retirement (they are only in their late 40's and plan on retiring before they are 55). Other vegetable farmers we buy from are doing equally as well. One in particular created a garden area on their market farm that now caters to and provides the backdrop for weddings and anniversary pictures, and receptions. There are hundreds of success stories in the new farming.

The old man on his tractor didn't just die...he's no longer outstanding in his field....

[Wilber]

The Conservatives pitting rural and urban voters against each other???

No way!!!!!

You think that wasn't a factor in the Liberals bringing in the registry in the first place? They play that game as well or better than anyone.

[Wild Bill]

The "old way" of farming is dead for sure. But the new way - organics, specialty markets and local client based farming IS profitable and is reviving farming.

Globalization has put a nail in the coffin of old time farmers because they were not used to having to compete for their markets, and because old farming methods depend heavily on oil and oil products to survive. The new versions are less dependent on oil and more dependent on knowing their markets, and pricing within reach. Where I live in southern Ontario, there are lots of family run organic farms that are doing extremely well. On e chicken farmer we buy from just bought their 5th house to "put away' for retirement (they are only in their late 40's and plan on retiring before they are 55). Other vegetable farmers we buy from are doing equally as well. One in particular created a garden area on their market farm that now caters to and provides the backdrop for weddings and anniversary pictures, and receptions. There are hundreds of success stories in the new farming.

The old man on his tractor didn't just die...he's no longer outstanding in his field....

Chickens are not peaches, in case you haven't noticed! Every type of farming has had to adapt to changing times. These adaptions have NOT meant that we need as much orchard land for fruit as we used to! So what has happened to the excess? It lies fallow. Nobody will buy it. It's essentially worthless and the farmers that own it have no equity, since it can only be sold for continued profitless farming.

Organic marketing can only do so much. The problem with Niagara fruit is that the last cannery closed! There is literally no where to sell the fruit except at fruit stands along the road. If you look in your supermarket at any can of peaches it will no longer ever say "Product of Canada". Far more cans of fruit and jars of jams are sold than baskets along the roadsides.

I'm not saying that this is in itself unfair. The world changes and many other industries have had to change with it. There are far fewer manufacturing jobs. How big are the secretarial pools these days? However, what's happened to the fruit farmers is an artificial condition, intended to buy urban votes from citizens who have no idea of how things are in the REAL world!

If a manufacturing company closes a plant, they can sell the land for some other use. Niagara fruit farmers are legally barred from doing the same! Today on the Bill Kelly CHML talk show I heard one of his guests make the same old WRONG point about protecting the "precious Niagara fruit belt, unique in Ontario".

That fruit belt is long gone! We used to have a thing in the spring called "Blossom Sunday" where you could travel the QEW to Niagara and see acres and acres of fruit tree blossoms along the sides of the highway. The blossoms have been gone for some years.

We only need a fraction of the fruit trees of old to supply the road side market, organic or not! The rest of the acreage lies fallow. Many farmers were caught by the Niagara Escarpment Commission laws and did not sell their land in time. Now they are stuck with it and still paying taxes on it.

So the folks in the big cities are so smug and proud of themselves for "saving" a fruit belt that no longer exists by screwing the farmers they purport to revere! This is sheer politics at its most extreme!

Perhaps the saddest facet of this situation is that traditionally farmers have had only one way of providing for their retirement and that was to sell part or all of the farm. They are essentially self-employed businessmen and have no company pension. All they have is the equity of their farm and when the land cannot be sold yet cannot be profitably farmed they are truly and absolutely screwed!

So bully for your neighbouring farmers with their chickens! I'm happy for them! However, it is not a good parallel.

Instead of comparing the proverbial apples and oranges you're putting peaches with chickens!

Edited September 14, 2010 by Wild Bill

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Out here in north central Alberta, the farmers are getting a little long in the tooth and I think their age is the real issue here. The family farm is endangered because nobody can "go" into it without bags of dollars. It ain't cheap starting up one of those business endeavors. I would suggest that it isn't simply a market driven or macro-driven effort that tells the entire tale.

[charter.rights]

Out here in north central Alberta, the farmers are getting a little long in the tooth and I think their age is the real issue here. The family farm is endangered because nobody can "go" into it without bags of dollars. It ain't cheap starting up one of those business endeavors. I would suggest that it isn't simply a market driven or macro-driven effort that tells the entire tale.

No. It is globalization that is the farmer's demon.

According to a local MP we import $20 billion a year from China and only export less that $2 billion per year. When we factor in the disparity in mean wages we are actually importing 3 or 4 times that $20 billion in equivalent trade goods and exporting far less.

In Alberta I would think that reducing the farm sizes to more manageable sizes would be the first priority in revitalization. 1200 acre farms have a huge dependency on oil and oil products, and we all know that factory farms consume far more resources than that. If we as consumers start demanding local produce and rejecting fresh winter fruit and vegetables from Argentina and Mexico, we can begin to turn things around. But being sucked in to believe that globalization is a good thing, is a cause and not a cure of everything to industry, farming, commerce and yes Bill, canneries and steel mills. We have allowed corporations to steal our industrial base and ship if off to foreign countries. It has made things better since the free trade was initiated. It has made it far worse.

[Topaz]

There's something else happening on farms also. Farmers are turning to wind turbines, in the Great Lakes area, and renting out land for $10,000-20,000 per turbine, yearly and for some that more than they can make on their lands. There are so many around that area it looks like Holland! As far as the long guns, some say by failing, the Tories can keep fund raising and keep asking for a majority to get rid of it.

[wyly]

If the bill fails they can spin it to the rural folks they tried but the NDP/Liberal parties of Toronto are out of touch. If the registry is killed they face potential backlash from those in larger cities.

From what I see it's in the Conservatives best interest for it to fail.

Thoughts?

I was thinking the same thing...

[wyly]

There's something else happening on farms also. Farmers are turning to wind turbines, in the Great Lakes area, and renting out land for $10,000-20,000 per turbine, yearly and for some that more than they can make on their lands. There are so many around that area it looks like Holland! As far as the long guns, some say by failing, the Tories can keep fund raising and keep asking for a majority to get rid of it.

ya Holland has a lot of turbines...I don't think the tories will get a majority on the long gun issue as they'll lose metro areas of Ontario and Quebec...

[wyly]

No. It is globalization that is the farmer's demon.

According to a local MP we import $20 billion a year from China and only export less that $2 billion per year. When we factor in the disparity in mean wages we are actually importing 3 or 4 times that $20 billion in equivalent trade goods and exporting far less.

In Alberta I would think that reducing the farm sizes to more manageable sizes would be the first priority in revitalization. 1200 acre farms have a huge dependency on oil and oil products, and we all know that factory farms consume far more resources than that. If we as consumers start demanding local produce and rejecting fresh winter fruit and vegetables from Argentina and Mexico, we can begin to turn things around. But being sucked in to believe that globalization is a good thing, is a cause and not a cure of everything to industry, farming, commerce and yes Bill, canneries and steel mills. We have allowed corporations to steal our industrial base and ship if off to foreign countries. It has made things better since the free trade was initiated. It has made it far worse.

if you look at the top agricultural countries the US is number one mostly because of the large amount of productive land and intense irrigation...

the countries next in line 2-France, 3-Netherlands, 4- Germany, 5-UK, 6-Canada...

I'm no farmer but it appears we're doing something wrong when a country the size of Vancouver Island (Netherlands) is out producing Canada nearly 2 to 1 in agricultural exports...with the amount of fertile land we have it should be no contest we should be leading IMO, but like I said I'm no farmer...

[fellowtraveller]

the countries next in line 2-France

What do you mean by 'top agricultural contry'.

France has a farming model quite unlike ours.

There are an astoniushing number of very small, mixed product farms in France- producing a bit of grain,feed, fruit, and with a few pigs, cows , chickens. Then there are huge coporate farms producing much of the national; output. There aren't nearly so many medium sized family style operations, which still are predominate in Canada.

The tiny French farms are massively subsidized in France in return for votes, a longtime arrangement.

[wyly]

What do you mean by 'top agricultural contry'.

France has a farming model quite unlike ours.

There are an astoniushing number of very small, mixed product farms in France- producing a bit of grain,feed, fruit, and with a few pigs, cows , chickens. Then there are huge coporate farms producing much of the national; output. There aren't nearly so many medium sized family style operations, which still are predominate in Canada.

The tiny French farms are massively subsidized in France in return for votes, a longtime arrangement.

Top agricultural produce exporters...

how do you define size such as "medium family size farms" income or land/farm size... I doubt many independent european farmers have farms the size of ours...

it's difficult to compare european costs to ours yes the french are subsidized but they have much higher fuel and cost of living than we do...plus as you point out they seem to be much more intensively farmed than the average canadian grain farm...

[Wild Bill]

In Alberta I would think that reducing the farm sizes to more manageable sizes would be the first priority in revitalization. 1200 acre farms have a huge dependency on oil and oil products, and we all know that factory farms consume far more resources than that. If we as consumers start demanding local produce and rejecting fresh winter fruit and vegetables from Argentina and Mexico, we can begin to turn things around. But being sucked in to believe that globalization is a good thing, is a cause and not a cure of everything to industry, farming, commerce and yes Bill, canneries and steel mills. We have allowed corporations to steal our industrial base and ship if off to foreign countries. It has made things better since the free trade was initiated. It has made it far worse.

Nice rant against globalization and corporations but as usual, you ignored my main point!

The main problem in Niagara is that government has effectively seized control of private farmland to please urban voters who don't understand the situation. When a factory closes they can sell the land to someone else, mitigating their losses. Farmers in Niagara CAN'T! So their equity is wiped out. They cannot adapt or use their land for capital to pursue another line of work.

Actions like this are what have created the urban/rural voting split, which I thought was what we were actually talking about! The reasons WHY fruit farming has become unprofitable in the Niagara area is a different coloured horse entirely!

[punked]

Maybe he is trying to get those 8 Liberals who the Liberals are Forcing to vote one way to cross the floor? Stranger things have happened.

[Saipan]

The "old way" of farming is dead for sure. But the new way - organics, specialty markets and local client based farming IS profitable and is reviving farming.

Local markets, small farming IS the old way.

old farming methods depend heavily on oil and oil products to survive. The new versions are less dependent on oil

Do they use horses or electric tractors?