Alleged Murders by Army "Kill Team"

[bloodyminded]

The case is still underway. It's a bloody horrific one.

As the US occupation in Afghanistan continues to deteriorate, 12 US soldiers are facing various charges over their involvement of murdering at random a number of Afghan civilians and then keeping body parts as trophies.

Twelve American soldiers are facing charges over their involvement in a secret “kill team” that is alleged to have randomly blown up and shot Afghan civilians, posing beside the dead bodies for pictures, and then taking fingers as war trophies.

Charging sheets obtained from the US Army show five soldiers charged with using grenades and firearms to murder three Afghan civilian men. They are listed as Staff Sgt Calvin Gibbs, Cpl Jeremy Morlock, Pte First Class Andrew Holmes, Specialist Adam Winfield and Specialist Michael Wagnon.

Seven others were accused of stabbing an Afghan corpse, possessing or taking pictures of casualties and beating other personnel in efforts to cover up the incidents.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/297325

[Shady]

The case is still underway. It's a bloody horrific one

I'd love to take your topic more seriously, but it's extremely hard when your link also contains stories about massive conspiracy theories.

Example:

Architects, engineers say they have proof 9/11 was a 'lie'

[Michael Hardner]

I'd love to take your topic more seriously, but it's extremely hard when your link also contains stories about massive conspiracy theories.

Example:

Architects, engineers say they have proof 9/11 was a 'lie'

I agree that we should try to source stories from reputable sources, and especially not left- and right- wing tabloids and conspiracy rags.

Here you go: AOL News

(Sept. 9) -- In one of the most grisly war crimes investigations to date, 12 American soldiers face charges over a secret "kill team" that allegedly murdered Afghan civilians for sport and collected bits of their fingers as war souvenirs.

[bloodyminded]

I'd love to take your topic more seriously, but it's extremely hard when your link also contains stories about massive conspiracy theories.

Example:

Architects, engineers say they have proof 9/11 was a 'lie'

It's true I'm utterly unfamiliar with this site, found it by chance, and read nothing else from the site.

But are you suggesting the story itself is a fabricaiton?

Here's a more accepted site:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/09/us-soldiers-afghan-civilians-fingers

(Though I somehow doubt you'd "love to take [it] more seriously.")

Edited September 11, 2010 by bloodyminded

[bloodyminded]

At any rate, now that we've gotten the (admittedly legitimate) sourcing issue out of the way...the charges are indeed horrific.

[bush_cheney2004]

At any rate, now that we've gotten the (admittedly legitimate) sourcing issue out of the way...the charges are indeed horrific.

Compared to what?

[bloodyminded]

Compared to what?

????

To things that are less horrific?

[bush_cheney2004]

????

To things that are less horrific?

The charges are just charges....UCMJ is full of possible charges. No big deal given the total domain for crimes and punishment on our fair planet, unless you're after the usual anti-American political high.

[bloodyminded]

The charges are just charges....UCMJ is full of possible charges. No big deal given the total domain for crimes and punishment on our fair planet, unless you're after the usual anti-American political high.

Yes, the charges are just charges, as stated; no one is necessarily guilty. And?

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes, the charges are just charges, as stated; no one is necessarily guilty. And?

...and, what is so "horrific" about that? Are you afraid a US Army private may chop off your fingers?

[bloodyminded]

...and, what is so "horrific" about that? Are you afraid a US Army private may chop off your fingers?

I think you're too patriotically sensitive.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think you're too patriotically sensitive.

..and I think you are afraid of a headline. What did you expect? Shock and dismay?

[CANADIEN]

Yes, the charges are just charges, as stated; no one is necessarily guilty. And?

Didn't you know that the United states, its army and its soldiers never do anything wrong?

On a serious note... the alleged crimes are indeed pretty horrific, and if true I expect the US ARmy will fully prosecute and punsh the guilty.

[bush_cheney2004]

...On a serious note... the alleged crimes are indeed pretty horrific, and if true I expect the US ARmy will fully prosecute and punsh the guilty.

Let's hope so...killing people is one thing, but chopping off fingers is intolerable!

[Guest American Woman]

... the alleged crimes are indeed pretty horrific, and if true I expect the US ARmy will fully prosecute and punsh the guilty.

This is true. They are awaiting court martial, and could face life in prison or the death penalty if convicted.

[bush_cheney2004]

This is true. They are awaiting court martial, and could face life in prison or the death penalty if convicted.

Yes...this will unfold as scripted. Perhaps we will get more insight into the Capture & Kill counterinsurgency operations underway in Afghanistan for some time. It won't be pretty....but it may be effective.

[Guest American Woman]

I would like to emphasize that while the members of the "kill team" were enlisted in the army, it was not an "Army 'Kill Team,'" which to me implies it was part of the U.S. army operations -- and what I thought when I first read the thread title. I noticed that the more reputable media outlets referred to "U.S. troops" rather than the "U.S. Army."

Seems to me the news of what happened is horrible enough without attempting to make it sound as if the U.S. army was involved, especially when it couldn't be further from the truth -- and they will be dealt with accordingly.

[bloodyminded]

The charges are just charges....UCMJ is full of possible charges. No big deal given the total domain for crimes and punishment on our fair planet, unless you're after the usual anti-American political high.

I have engaged in no anti-Americanism. None at all.

Like I said, you're oversensitive.

[Guest American Woman]

THE CHARGES

-- Spc. Jeremy N. Morlock: Premeditated murder (three charges); conspiracy to commit premeditated murder; conspiracy to commit assault and battery; wrongfully endeavoring to impede an investigation; violating a lawful general order; wrongfully using a controlled substance.

-- Spc. Michael S. Wagnon II: Premeditated murder (one charge); conspiracy to commit premeditated murder; conspiracy to commit aggravated assault with a dangerous weapon; assault with a dangerous weapon; conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline; wrongfully endeavoring to impede an investigation.

-- Spc. Adam C. Winfield: Premeditated murder (one charge); conspiracy to commit premeditated murder; conspiracy to commit aggravated assault with a dangerous weapon; committing an assault with a dangerous weapon; wrongfully using a controlled substance.

-- Pfc. Andrew H. Holmes: Premeditated murder (one charge); conspiracy to commit premeditated murder; conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline; violating a lawful general order; wrongfully using a controlled substance.

-- Staff Sgt. Calvin E. Gibbs: Premeditated murder (three charges); conspiracy to commit premeditated murder; conspiracy to commit assault and battery; conspiracy to commit aggravated assault with a dangerous weapon; conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline (two charges); wrongfully endeavoring to impede an investigation (two charges); communicating a threat to injure; unlawfully striking another soldier; committing an assault with a dangerous weapon; dereliction of duty (two charges); violating a general order. (No picture available.)

-- Staff Sgt. Robert G. Stevens: Conspiracy to commit aggravated assault with a dangerous weapon; making a false official statement; aggravated assault with a dangerous weapon; wrongfully and wantonly engaging in conduct likely to cause death or bodily harm to other soldiers; dereliction of duty.

-- Staff Sgt. David D. Bram: Conspiracy to commit assault and battery; wrongfully endeavoring to impede an investigation; unlawfully striking another soldier; violating a lawful general order; dereliction of duty.

-- Sgt. Darren N. Jones: Conspiracy to commit assault and battery; conspiracy to commit aggravated assault with a dangerous weapon; unlawfully striking another soldier; committing assault with a dangerous weapon; wrongfully endeavoring to impede an investigation; wrongfully using a controlled substance.

-- Cpl. Emmitt R. Quintal: Conspiracy to commit assault and battery; wrongfully endeavoring to impede an investigation; unlawfully striking another soldier; wrongfully using a controlled substance; violating a lawful general order.

-- Spc. Adam W. Kelly: Conspiracy to commit assault and battery; unlawfully striking another soldier; wrongfully using a controlled substance; wrongfully endeavoring to impede an investigation.

-- Spc. Corey A. Moore: Conspiracy to commit assault and battery; wrongfully endeavoring to impede an investigation; conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline; unlawfully striking another soldier; wrongfully using a controlled substance.

-- Pfc. Ashton A. Moore: Conspiracy to commit aggravated assault with a dangerous weapon; assault with a dangerous weapon; wrongfully using a controlled substance.

The soldiers, all from the same company in the 5th Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division, are charged with a total of 76 crimes, including the premeditated murders of three Afghan civilians and the beating of one or more fellow soldiers.

One has to wonder what drives some people to engage in such sadistic behavior.

[bloodyminded]

THE CHARGES

-- Spc. Jeremy N. Morlock: Premeditated murder (three charges); conspiracy to commit premeditated murder; conspiracy to commit assault and battery; wrongfully endeavoring to impede an investigation; violating a lawful general order; wrongfully using a controlled substance.

-- Spc. Michael S. Wagnon II: Premeditated murder (one charge); conspiracy to commit premeditated murder; conspiracy to commit aggravated assault with a dangerous weapon; assault with a dangerous weapon; conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline; wrongfully endeavoring to impede an investigation.

-- Spc. Adam C. Winfield: Premeditated murder (one charge); conspiracy to commit premeditated murder; conspiracy to commit aggravated assault with a dangerous weapon; committing an assault with a dangerous weapon; wrongfully using a controlled substance.

-- Pfc. Andrew H. Holmes: Premeditated murder (one charge); conspiracy to commit premeditated murder; conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline; violating a lawful general order; wrongfully using a controlled substance.

-- Staff Sgt. Calvin E. Gibbs: Premeditated murder (three charges); conspiracy to commit premeditated murder; conspiracy to commit assault and battery; conspiracy to commit aggravated assault with a dangerous weapon; conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline (two charges); wrongfully endeavoring to impede an investigation (two charges); communicating a threat to injure; unlawfully striking another soldier; committing an assault with a dangerous weapon; dereliction of duty (two charges); violating a general order. (No picture available.)

-- Staff Sgt. Robert G. Stevens: Conspiracy to commit aggravated assault with a dangerous weapon; making a false official statement; aggravated assault with a dangerous weapon; wrongfully and wantonly engaging in conduct likely to cause death or bodily harm to other soldiers; dereliction of duty.

-- Staff Sgt. David D. Bram: Conspiracy to commit assault and battery; wrongfully endeavoring to impede an investigation; unlawfully striking another soldier; violating a lawful general order; dereliction of duty.

-- Sgt. Darren N. Jones: Conspiracy to commit assault and battery; conspiracy to commit aggravated assault with a dangerous weapon; unlawfully striking another soldier; committing assault with a dangerous weapon; wrongfully endeavoring to impede an investigation; wrongfully using a controlled substance.

-- Cpl. Emmitt R. Quintal: Conspiracy to commit assault and battery; wrongfully endeavoring to impede an investigation; unlawfully striking another soldier; wrongfully using a controlled substance; violating a lawful general order.

-- Spc. Adam W. Kelly: Conspiracy to commit assault and battery; unlawfully striking another soldier; wrongfully using a controlled substance; wrongfully endeavoring to impede an investigation.

-- Spc. Corey A. Moore: Conspiracy to commit assault and battery; wrongfully endeavoring to impede an investigation; conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline; unlawfully striking another soldier; wrongfully using a controlled substance.

-- Pfc. Ashton A. Moore: Conspiracy to commit aggravated assault with a dangerous weapon; assault with a dangerous weapon; wrongfully using a controlled substance.

The soldiers, all from the same company in the 5th Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division, are charged with a total of 76 crimes, including the premeditated murders of three Afghan civilians and the beating of one or more fellow soldiers.

One has to wonder what drives some people to engage in such sadistic behavior.

It's an old question, isn't it? I think some reflexive answers from people would be the psychic effects of war--except so many people behave admirably under far more stressful situations during war, that it alone seems an insufficient answer. Another answer is innate sociopathy, but that seems far too pat, and in fact unlikely. I guess sometimes there are no satisfactory answers.

[Guest American Woman]

It's an old question, isn't it? I think some reflexive answers from people would be the psychic effects of war--except so many people behave admirably under far more stressful situations during war, that it alone seems an insufficient answer.

Yet it could be an answer as people do react differently to such stress. Still, it almost seems as if there has to be more involved, as this was premeditated.

Another answer is innate sociopathy, but that seems far too pat, and in fact unlikely. I guess sometimes there are no satisfactory answers.

I think some psychological disorder could be a likely explanation, at least for the 'leader(s).' More difficult to understand is the 'follower mentality,' I think, because most often they know without a doubt that what they are doing is wrong. I would think there had to be some of both in the group of soldiers charged with these crimes. Then there's the question of drugs, too, which I think one can't help but wonder about when things like this happen. Was their thought process altered by drugs?

None of it excuses the behavior, but it's just so difficult to imagine your child going off to war and then finding out that they behaved this way.

Which brings me to this:

The father of a U.S. soldier serving in Afghanistan says he tried nearly a half dozen times to pass an urgent message from his son to the Army: Troops in his unit had murdered an Afghan civilian, planned more killings and threatened him to keep quiet about it.

His son is charged with murder in the final killing, and it sounds as if he's saying he was forced into the behavior by threats from the "kill team" -- after he had told his Dad about what was going on and his Dad had contacted the army about it. I suppose that could explain some of the behavior, too -- fear.

[Shwa]

Yet it could be an answer as people do react differently to such stress. Still, it almost seems as if there has to be more involved, as this was premeditated.

I think some psychological disorder could be a likely explanation, at least for the 'leader(s).' More difficult to understand is the 'follower mentality,' I think, because most often they know without a doubt that what they are doing is wrong.

It is a question as old as war itself - every war has had it's unintended atrocities. But then, why do some people commit murder in the sunshiney happiness of downtown LA?

I think you have nailed it though, but I don't think drugs is required to warp perception that much, just an idea. From a core idea, it isn't hard to see a loose leadership group form a cadre that exerts pressure on others to follow. Sometimes it is all about getting away with the first one.

There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he was sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to. Yossarian was moved very deeply by the absolute simplicity of this clause of Catch-22 and let out a respectful whistle.

[bloodyminded]

Yet it could be an answer as people do react differently to such stress. Still, it almost seems as if there has to be more involved, as this was premeditated.

I think some psychological disorder could be a likely explanation, at least for the 'leader(s).' More difficult to understand is the 'follower mentality,' I think, because most often they know without a doubt that what they are doing is wrong. I would think there had to be some of both in the group of soldiers charged with these crimes. Then there's the question of drugs, too, which I think one can't help but wonder about when things like this happen. Was their thought process altered by drugs?

None of it excuses the behavior, but it's just so difficult to imagine your child going off to war and then finding out that they behaved this way.

Which brings me to this:

The father of a U.S. soldier serving in Afghanistan says he tried nearly a half dozen times to pass an urgent message from his son to the Army: Troops in his unit had murdered an Afghan civilian, planned more killings and threatened him to keep quiet about it.

His son is charged with murder in the final killing, and it sounds as if he's saying he was forced into the behavior by threats from the "kill team" -- after he had told his Dad about what was going on and his Dad had contacted the army about it. I suppose that could explain some of the behavior, too -- fear.

Sure, there is no single motive or explanation under which all people, even those involved in the same crimes, can be explained. I think this extrapolates generally out to all gangs of people who commit terrible acts.

(I add one more time, just to clarify what you already know but what some people might use as a point of argument: we don't know that they're guilty. But the points hold anyway, for others if not for these particular men.)

[bush_cheney2004]

I have engaged in no anti-Americanism. None at all.

Like I said, you're oversensitive.

Don't fret...it's OK to be anti-American, especially in Canada during political season!

Your anti-Americanism started with derision of nationalism of any kind, them became the usual clucking about American foreign and domestic policy.

...and that's OK.

[bloodyminded]

Don't fret...it's OK to be anti-American, especially in Canada during political season!

Your anti-Americanism started with derision of nationalism of any kind, them became the usual clucking about American foreign and domestic policy.

...and that's OK.

Sure it's ok, but it's not anti-Americanism.