Anti-Mosque Hysteria Elsewhere, Too

Jack Weber · August 27, 2010

Debating whether extreme Islamist (note to the pre-schoolers on the board, "Islamist" isn't a synonym for "Muslim") dogma is fascism in a strict literal definition is kind of like arguing about whether Pol Pot was really a communist.

-k

Yup...

If it walks like Fascist,talks like a Fascist,and most importantly,acts like a Fascist...

It's most likely a Fascist,regardless of its faith based leanings...

Edited August 27, 2010 by Jack Weber

dre · August 27, 2010

It's your key-hole definition of fascism that's the problem...not my understanding.

Well... problem is thats the definition. Thats what sets fascism apart from other types of authoritarian nationalism.

Edited August 27, 2010 by dre

dre · August 27, 2010

Debating whether extreme Islamist (note to the pre-schoolers on the board, "Islamist" isn't a synonym for "Muslim") dogma is fascism in a strict literal definition is kind of like arguing about whether Pol Pot was really a communist.

-k

No actually its not anything like that. By the definition being used here all authoritarian political systems are fascism. Its not a matter of me demanding a strict definition, its a matter of people assigning their own definitions ad hoc based on whatever they think is "bad". Like I said... people have the right to call their dog a spaceship, and I dont really care if they do, but I might point out its not accurate.

Its also worth pointing out why the word is intentionally misused and Iv already done that. People toss around this term at virtually EVERY entity they dont like. The Bush administration was fascist, Harper is fascist, Margaret Thatcher was a fascist, Islamists are fascists, etc etc etc. Theres virtually NOBODY that I havent heard people like DOP refer as a fascist.

Heres a good write up that mentions the phenomenon Im talking about...

Fascism is a form of government that was popular between 1919 and 1945, but became taboo after the Holocaust and the defeat of the Axis powers in 1945. Since 1945, few groups have applied the term to themselves. The term "fascism" has become a universal epithet for anything bad. In 2005, scholar Richard Griffiths stated that the term fascism is the most "misused, and over-used term of our times." In particular, fascism is frequently considered synonymous with white power, though many non-white and racially mixed countries have had fascist governments at one time or another, including Brazil, Mexico, Japan, and Zaire.
Fascism in its original meaning referred to the Italian Fascists under Benito Mussolini. The authoritative document is "The Doctrine of Fascism," which appeared as the entry for fascism in the Italian Encyclopedia published in 1932. The author was listed as Benito Mussolini but the more likely author is the philosopher Giovanni Gentile, who helped Mussolini formulate his political philosophy of fascism.

The defining features of fascism are nationalism (including economic nationalism), corporatism (including economic planning), totalitarianism (including dictatorship and social interventionism), and militarism. According to the Doctrine of Fascism: "The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value.

Edited August 27, 2010 by dre

Bonam · August 27, 2010

No actually its not anything like that. By the definition being used here all authoritarian political systems are fascism. Its not a matter of me demanding a strict definition, its a matter of people assigning their own definitions ad hoc based on whatever they think is "bad". Like I said... people have the right to call their dog a spaceship, and I dont really care if they do, but I might point out its not accurate.

Its also worth pointing out why the word is intentionally misused and Iv already done that. People toss around this term at virtually EVERY entity they dont like. The Bush administration was fascist, Harper is fascist, Margaret Thatcher was a fascist, Islamists are fascists, etc etc etc. Theres virtually NOBODY that I havent heard people like DOP refer as a fascist.

Heres a good write up that mentions the phenomenon Im talking about...

Why quibble over the exact terminology used? You know exactly what is meant by "Islamofascist". It refers to people who want to establish/maintain states that are ruled under strict interpretations of Islamic law, have a strong aversion towards the West, and often are willing to use violent measures against both their own people and outsiders to achieve their goals. Would it make you feel better if we called them "Islamonationalists" or "Islamotheocrats" or "Islamoauthoritarians"?

Edited August 27, 2010 by Bonam

Jack Weber · August 27, 2010

Why quibble over the exact terminology used? You know exactly what is meant by "Islamofascist". It refers to people who want to establish/maintain states that are ruled under strict interpretations of Islamic law, have a strong aversion towards the West, and often are willing to use violent measures against both their own people and outsiders to achieve their goals. Would it make you feel better if we called them "Islamonationalists" or "Islamotheocrats" or "Islamoauthoritarians"?

That's a very good question....

What do you call a theocratically driven totalitarian/authoritarian ideology as it relates to Islam???

Shady · August 27, 2010

That's a very good question....

What do you call a theocratically driven totalitarian/authoritarian ideology as it relates to Islam???

Sharia.

Radsickle · August 27, 2010

That's a very good question....

What do you call a theocratically driven totalitarian/authoritarian ideology as it relates to Islam???

anti-Islamic?

Jack Weber · August 27, 2010

anti-Islamic?

BBzzzzzt

Wrong....

Let me get this straight...

It's anti-Islamic to call a fairly large group within Islam that embraces an totalitarian/authoritarian mindset...Lets call that specific thing "Islamofascist"...Anti-Islamic???

Edited August 27, 2010 by Jack Weber

DogOnPorch · August 27, 2010

Its also worth pointing out why the word is intentionally misused and Iv already done that. People toss around this term at virtually EVERY entity they dont like. The Bush administration was fascist, Harper is fascist, Margaret Thatcher was a fascist, Islamists are fascists, etc etc etc. Theres virtually NOBODY that I havent heard people like DOP refer as a fascist.

Heres a good write up that mentions the phenomenon Im talking about...

Those who followed and continue to follow the leads of fellows like Qutb, al-Banna, al-Qassam and the literally evil Nazi Grand Mufti of Jerusalem ARE fascists.

You're also free to post some of the other groups I refer to as fascists besides the traditional ones...but you can't...since there aren't any.

dre · August 27, 2010

Why quibble over the exact terminology used? You know exactly what is meant by "Islamofascist". It refers to people who want to establish/maintain states that are ruled under strict interpretations of Islamic law, have a strong aversion towards the West, and often are willing to use violent measures against both their own people and outsiders to achieve their goals. Would it make you feel better if we called them "Islamonationalists" or "Islamotheocrats" or "Islamoauthoritarians"?

Why quibble over the exact terminology used?

I find the phenomenon interesting thats all. The way we try to associate present day adversaries with historical boogey men by mixing the labels up. Its interesting especially because a lot of these terms are carefully placed in the lexicon by people who want us to think a certain way. A couple of prominent early users of this word for example are Christopher Hitchens, and George Bush. Hitchens is fighting a personal war against religion, and Bush was fighting a war against Alqeada/Islam - its usefull for them to seed our minds with this association. I also dont believe that lumping all these different ideologies, religious sects, nations, and groups under that single term is helpfull to our understanding of who these people are.

Would it make you feel better if we called them "Islamonationalists" or "Islamotheocrats" or "Islamoauthoritarians"?

Ill "feel" fine whatever you call them.

Edited August 27, 2010 by dre

dre · August 27, 2010

Those who followed and continue to follow the leads of fellows like Qutb, al-Banna, al-Qassam and the literally evil Nazi Grand Mufti of Jerusalem ARE fascists.

You can say that 10 000 times if you want and use bold capitals, large fonts, etc. And it still wont make it true. Not once have you even tried to name a significant movement within Islam, that seeks to organize society based on a corporate adgenda in both economic and social terms. You just keep saying MUFTI MUFTI MUFTI MUFTI MUFTI! :lol:

You're also free to post some of the other groups I refer to as fascists besides the traditional ones...but you can't...since there aren't any.

I never claimed you refered to other groups using that term. I said people LIKE you that play fast and loose with the facts, and misuse words like fascist and nazi to denigrate various groups of people that dont like.

DogOnPorch · August 27, 2010

You can say that 10 000 times if you want and use bold capitals, large fonts, etc. And it still wont make it true. Not once have you even tried to name a significant movement within Islam, that seeks to organize society based on a corporate adgenda in both economic and social terms. You just keep saying MUFTI MUFTI MUFTI MUFTI MUFTI!

OK...revisionist...in your own words describe the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Remember, you'll be defending one of the key figures in the Holocaust.

I never claimed you refered to other groups using that term. I said people LIKE you that play fast and loose with the facts, and misuse words like fascist and nazi to denigrate various groups of people that dont like.

So you're a coward and won't say what you actually mean. So who on this board am I like?? kimmy? Oleg? Shady? eyeball? American Woman? BC-2004? wyly? M.Dancer? jgb? Army Guy? capricorn? bloodyminded?!! Who?? (sorry who I missed oh yeah dre )

dre · August 27, 2010

OK...revisionist...in your own words describe the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Remember, you'll be defending one of the key figures in the Holocaust.

So you're a coward and won't say what you actually mean. So who on this board am I like?? kimmy? Oleg? Shady? eyeball? American Woman? BC-2004? wyly? M.Dancer? jgb? Army Guy? capricorn? bloodyminded?!! Who?? (sorry who I missed oh yeah dre )

OK...revisionist...in your own words describe the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Remember, you'll be defending one of the key figures in the Holocaust.

MORE non-sequiturs. I havent argued against your account of that individual. I didnt take the position that no muslim leaders had ever collaborated with the nazis, or that none had every had any fascist aspirations. Even if your claims about that are all true it wouldnt support your argument.

I also dont appreciate your reference to the holocaust because my grandfather died in Aushwitz.

So you're a coward and won't say what you actually mean. So who on this board am I like?? kimmy? Oleg? Shady? eyeball? American Woman? BC-2004? wyly? M.Dancer? jgb? Army Guy? capricorn? bloodyminded?!! Who?? (sorry who I missed oh yeah dre

I said exactly what I meant. Youre like other people that misuse works like fascist, nazi, communist, socialist, and so on to denigrate groups of people you dont like.

Edited August 27, 2010 by dre

DogOnPorch · August 27, 2010

Done now?

OK...in your own words...describe the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Take your time.

dre · August 27, 2010

Done now?

OK...in your own words...describe the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Take your time.

Why would I chase your non-sequitur argument? You can either tell me about a significant ultra-nationalist movement within Islam today that wants to organize an authoriarian state around the corporate perspective (both social and economic) or you cant.

Anyways this really isnt that important and were not going to agree on this. So unless you show up with something new - like a coherent argument for example - Im pretty much done here.

DogOnPorch · August 27, 2010

Why would I chase your non-sequitur argument? You can either tell me about a significant ultra-nationalist movement within Islam today that wants to organize an authoriarian state around the corporate perspective (both social and economic) or you cant.

Anyways this really isnt that important and were not going to agree on this. So unless you show up with something new - like a coherent argument for example - Im pretty much done here.

Geeze...windbag. OK...sleep on it and you can describe the Grand Mufti in the morning.

:lol:

hermarx101 · August 27, 2010

Geeze...windbag. OK...sleep on it and you can describe the Grand Mufti in the morning.

you don't live in the REAL WORLD....

bloodyminded · August 27, 2010

Why quibble over the exact terminology used? You know exactly what is meant by "Islamofascist". It refers to people who want to establish/maintain states that are ruled under strict interpretations of Islamic law, have a strong aversion towards the West, and often are willing to use violent measures against both their own people and outsiders to achieve their goals. Would it make you feel better if we called them "Islamonationalists" or "Islamotheocrats" or "Islamoauthoritarians"?

"Fascist" has been used, for decades, as a pejorative against the political right, when there's any hint of authoritarianism, or even perhaps mere opinions that the middle and the left have not cared for. It is people who are serious about the study of fascism--which, as Dre points out very well, is a rather discrete entity--who have long made the plea to stop using the word, simply and only because it's the wrong word. Calling anyone who is not a fascist a "fascist" is entirely like people terming folks of the Left--say, myself--as "communist." It's totally inaccurate. It's a misuse of the word.

The so-called "Islamofascists" would in fact have serious issues with fascism-proper.

It's a useful pejorative, because it's easy and sounds suitably sinister. And I certainly don't object to its use on behalf of the violent Islamists. But I think we should strive for accuracy in our discussions.

Put it another way: why in the world would we not wish to strive fro accuracy in our discussions?

Also, incidentally, the use of the word exposes a certain odd contradiction among a sector of the political Right: while they are currently trying to argue (inaccurately) that fascism is a peculiarly leftist phenomenon...they simultaneously wish to use the word to describe what are perhaps the most arch-conservative forces on Earth.

I don't see why they should have it both ways.

GostHacked · August 27, 2010

you don't live in the REAL WORLD....

Mr. Canada? Lictor?

The Banned group seems to be getting bigger.

ToadBrother · August 27, 2010

Also, incidentally, the use of the word exposes a certain odd contradiction among a sector of the political Right: while they are currently trying to argue (inaccurately) that fascism is a peculiarly leftist phenomenon...they simultaneously wish to use the word to describe what are perhaps the most arch-conservative forces on Earth.

Fascism has sadly lost its meaning. It, at one time, did describe a specific type of nationalistic authoritarianism (as Wikipedia puts it "corporatism"). In reality, it could only be meaningfully applied to Mussolini's Italy or Franco's Spain, but it got widened to include Nazi Germany and even at times the Japanese Empire at the time. The American and European Left during the 1930s also got into the game of muddying the waters, often accusing conservative groups Fascists as a sort of guilt by association ploy.

The same was tried by the American Right with leftists and socialists, accusing them of being Communists, but somehow Communism was never as widely used for misidentification as Fascism was, probably because Communism had a more concrete set of definitions. Still, I hate to see the abuse of the word. I do not regard the Islamists as Fascists. Obviously there are touching points, but then again there were no lack of gray areas between Communism and Fascism. That there are features in common doesn't make them the same thing.

bloodyminded · August 27, 2010

Fascism has sadly lost its meaning. It, at one time, did describe a specific type of nationalistic authoritarianism (as Wikipedia puts it "corporatism"). In reality, it could only be meaningfully applied to Mussolini's Italy or Franco's Spain, but it got widened to include Nazi Germany and even at times the Japanese Empire at the time. The American and European Left during the 1930s also got into the game of muddying the waters, often accusing conservative groups Fascists as a sort of guilt by association ploy.

Oh, yes. In my own lifetime I've heard conservatives deemed "fascist" a million times. Any serious scholars on the matter have been decrying this usage for a long time. Similarly, a bunch of fascim scholars recently tore apart, with breathtaking ease, Jonah Goldberg's "liberal fascism" thesis.

The same was tried by the American Right with leftists and socialists, accusing them of being Communists, but somehow Communism was never as widely used for misidentification as Fascism was, probably because Communism had a more concrete set of definitions.

Good point. Even when it's used pejoratively now, one gets the feeling that even those using it don't actually believe it in most cases. Similarly, no one has difficulty as seeing a communist (not an apparatchik, but merely a regular person who thinks it a good idea) as naive, even well-intentioned; fascists, not so much.

Still, I hate to see the abuse of the word. I do not regard the Islamists as Fascists. Obviously there are touching points, but then again there were no lack of gray areas between Communism and Fascism. That there are features in common doesn't make them the same thing.

True. As to people asking me (as if I should be the authority?????) what the Islamists should instead be called--"if not Islamofascist, then what?"--well, first, who cares, and second, we could do worse than "Islamists." However gratifying, it's not in any way a moral necessity to include a loaded and connotative insult in the description.

Edited August 27, 2010 by bloodyminded

Sir Bandelot · August 27, 2010

The word does not have a singular meaning. Apparently its origin comes from the Roman "fascia", the leaves used as a sort of logo on some emblems and building structures. Fascia alludes to face, which again is the outward face. So it alludes to the use of a symbol to identify some sort of embodiment. That is why corporatism is sometimes thought of as fascism. Some people think of the word fascism as having a de-humanizing element. Corporate structures have some elements of person-hood, but are not persons. Fascism demands that all members conform to the mission and vision of the organization, whether it be a company or a country. There is no room for artistic freedom or for ndividuals to try out their own independant ideas. At least that's how I think of it.