Arab guilty of rape after consensual sex with Jew

[naomiglover]

A Palestinian man has been convicted of rape after having consensual sex with a woman who had believed him to be a fellow Jew.

When she later found out that he was not Jewish but an Arab, she filed a criminal complaint for rape and indecent assault.

This is utterly ridiculous. It sounds like some backwards discriminatory ruling practiced in some Muslim countries.

Israel is digressing and becoming more and more fanatical.

Dan Meridor, a deputy prime minister in Binyamin Netanyahu's government, is opposed to the proposal. "Why does every bill need the word 'Jewish' in it – to show the Arab citizens that it doesn't belong to them? Then we're all shocked when they radicalise their stance.

"The majority doesn't need to remind the minority that it is in fact a minority all the time," he added.

The Guardian

[Guest American Woman]

This is utterly ridiculous. It sounds like some backwards discriminatory ruling practiced in some Muslim countries.

Really? Then you must have started threads about it regarding Arab countries, feeling the way you do. So could you point them out to me, please? Because I can't seem to find them.

Thanks in advance.

[naomiglover]

Really? Then you must have started threads about it regarding Arab countries, feeling the way you do. So could you point them out to me, please? Because I can't seem to find them.

Thanks in advance.

Women in Somalia forced by hardliners to shake their breasts

Go away. Thanks in advance.

We already know about the many backwards practices in some Muslim countries. I don't see anyone trying to justify them here. So there is no need for me to point them out. However, there are many here who will go to any length (like you lying) to try to justify Israel's discriminatory practices, both domestically and internationally.

[Shady]

A Palestinian man has been convicted of rape after having consensual sex with a woman who had believed him to be a fellow Jew.

When she later found out that he was not Jewish but an Arab, she filed a criminal complaint for rape and indecent assault.

False accusations of rape are always bad.

This is utterly ridiculous. It sounds like some backwards discriminatory ruling practiced in some Muslim countries.

Not really. In Muslim countries, women don't have the same rights to file criminal complaints.

Israel is digressing and becoming more and more fanatical.

I don't think we have to worry about Israel becoming as unevolved as Arab and Muslim countries. But if they did become as backwards as Arab and Muslim countires. It would be a definite problem.

Edited July 21, 2010 by Shady

[naomiglover]

False accusations of rape are always bad.

Not really. In Muslim countries, women don't have the same rights to file criminal complaints.

I don't think we have to worry about Israel becoming as unevolved as Arab and Muslim countries. But if they did become as backwards as Arab and Muslim countires. It would be a definite problem.

You think if a Muslim man had consensual sex with Jewish woman in North America and lied about being Jewish, he would be charged with rape?

Good for you Shady for coming in here and setting the bar really high for Israel.

[Shady]

You think if a Muslim man had consensual sex with Jewish woman in North America and lied about being Jewish, he would be charged with rape?

Probably not, because there is no law specific to rape by deception. Thankfully he has the right to appeal, which he is doing.

Good for you Shady for coming in here and setting the bar really high for Israel.

I figured I'd set teh bar as high for Israel as you do for Arabs and Muslims!

[Guest American Woman]

Women in Somalia forced by hardliners to shake their breasts

So you think a man lying about who he is, "an Arab from East Jerusalem," who "introduced himself as a Jewish bachelor seeking a serious relationship," resulting in "a charge of rape by deception," is comparable to forcing women to shake their breasts??

My God. I apparently misjudged the actual depth of your ignorance, and for that you do have my apologies. And my sympathy.

[naomiglover]

Probably not, because there is no law specific to rape by deception. Thankfully he has the right to appeal, which he is doing.

You bring up an interesting point. Does Israel have a 'rape by deception' law? If it does, then a lot of men would become guilty.

This woman had sex with a guy who introduced himself as "Jewish", seeking "a serious relationship". The same night they had sex at "a nearby building".

So this man was charged for lying about being Jewish, but not because he said he was seeking a serious relationship? This is all a little too much to digest but roll out the justifications.

I figured I'd set teh bar as high for Israel as you do for Arabs and Muslims!

I've asked before and you have failed each time to provide examples. Are you going to give examples or are you going to continue to accuse without showing proof of your accusations?

[Shady]

This is all a little too much to digest

Almost as much as women who get stoned to death for adultery in Arab and Muslim countries.

But carry on. I don't want to interrupt your ever so serious case of the vapors!

[Guest American Woman]

You think if a Muslim man had consensual sex with Jewish woman in North America and lied about being Jewish, he would be charged with rape?

Could very well be.

Rape 'by Deception' May Become A Crime In Massachusetts

Or in the UK:

An airline pilot accused of raping a teacher from Pembrokeshire by deception .....

"raping by deception...."

There you go. More instances of men being charged of rape by deception.

Now please explain how a man's purposely lying to a woman to trick her into have sex with him is comparable to "forcing women to shake their breasts." I'm really looking forward to your explanation.

Edited July 21, 2010 by American Woman

[naomiglover]

Almost as much as women who get stoned to death for adultery in Arab and Muslim countries.

Discrimination comes in various degrees.

[naomiglover]

Could very well be.

Rape 'by Deception' May Become A Crime In Massachusetts

Heh - Nice. "Could become". Great example. Bravo for finding an article from 2008 and something that never became law.

Or in the UK:

An airline pilot accused of raping a teacher from Pembrokeshire by deception .....

"raping by deception...."

There you go. More instances of men being charged of rape by deception.

He was never charged in the UK.

Are you lying or did you not read again?

I can't tell, because you do both quite often. From your own article:

An airline pilot accused of raping a teacher from Pembrokeshire by deception has walked free after the judge at Swansea halted the trial.

[naomiglover]

Here is more information about the specific law from Al Jazeera:

'Deceit'

The Israeli criminal code mentions "deceit" as a possible aggravating factor in sexual assault cases and the verdict in Kashur's case is not the first time an Israeli court has sentenced a man for "rape by deception," according to several Israeli lawyers.

The most notable case was in 2008, when Israel's high court of justice upheld the conviction of Zvi Sleiman, a man who impersonated a housing ministry official and promised women apartments and benefits in exchange for sex.

A rape conviction sentence could be upheld, the court ruled, when "a person lies does not tell the truth regarding critical matters to a reasonable woman".

Several other men have been convicted of "rape by deception" since that ruling.

But the Kashur case appears to be the first time a person's race has been used as the determining factor.

"In this case, the ruling seems to say that if a 'reasonable' Jewish woman knew a man was an Arab, then she would not make love to him," Abeer Baker, an attorney with Adalah, an organisation that advocates for Arab rights in Israel, said.

Baker called it a "dangerous precedent," saying it would allow the Israeli government to interfere in the private lives of citizens.

"It's interfering in a very intimate, personal decision," she said. "That should be made between two people. The court should not interfere."

[Guest American Woman]

Heh - Nice. "Could become". Great example. Bravo for finding an article from 2008 and something that never became law.

More like "hasn't become law yet," unless you can show me where it's been scrapped from ever becoming law in the future?

But let me get this straight. You, who started a thread about a ten year old quote, are now mocking my article from 2008? You are too funny.

He was never charged in the UK.

So he was brought to trial without ever being charged?

Guess again.

Are you lying or did you not read again?

Talk to yourself often?

I can't tell, because you do both quite often. From your own article:

An airline pilot accused of raping a teacher from Pembrokeshire by deception has walked free after the judge at Swansea halted the trial.

Once again you prove yourself wrong, doing my work for me. The judge couldn't halt the trial if the man wasn't charged* with raping by deception, because in case you're truly unaware of it, a charge is a prerequisite to a trial taking place.

*Here's a tip: "accused of" means "charged with."

Edited July 21, 2010 by American Woman

[naomiglover]

More like "hasn't become law yet," unless you can show me where it's been scrapped from ever becoming law in the future?

But let me get this straight. You, who started a thread about a ten year old quote, are now mocking my article from 2008? You are too funny.

You are mocking yourself and your credibility for posting something that has not become law as an example of a law in Israel.

You are ridiculous.

So he was brought to trial without ever being charged?

Guess again.

Uhm. He was never convicted because the judge threw the trial out. There is no such law in the UK.

Talk to yourself often?

Haha?

Once again you prove yourself wrong, doing my work for me. The judge couldn't halt the trial if the man wasn't charged* with raping by deception, because in case you're truly unaware of it, a charge is a prerequisite to a trial taking place.

*Here's a tip: "accused of" means "charged with."

He was never convicted because there is no such crime.

You posted two supposed examples and you came out scoring 0 points. One has not become law and the other, he was never convicted, because there is no such law.

Want to try again?

Edited July 21, 2010 by naomiglover

[Remiel]

I do not suppose we could forget the usual Israel/Palestinian crap and turn this into a discussion about " rape by deception " in general?

I was just thinking about this, and I think it is a legitimate charge, but it should be kept highly situational. I am not sure that the case in the article should qualify, because it does not really contain complete information about the motive.

The sudden thought that had occurred to me, which is why I decided to post in this topic, is the classic case of statutory rape between a consenting minor and a deceived adult. If there are grounds to believe that an adult who had sex with a minor under the mislead impression that they were an adult would never knowingly consent to sex with a minor, should that not mean, by the same token, that the minor should be charged with this same " rape by deception " ?

[Guest American Woman]

You are mocking yourself and your credibility for posting something that has not become law as an example of a law in Israel.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing.

You ask if we think the man would be charged in North America, as if the very idea were ludicrous. I cited an example where a state has considered making such a law, quoting legal minds who think it should be, and you totally dismiss it. Furthermore, you apparently have some inside information that you refuse to share that it will never become law.

You are ridiculous.

Talking to yourself again, eh? Better watch it. Might become a habit.

Uhm. He was never convicted because the judge threw the trial out. There is no such law in the UK.

Yet, in spite of your claims, he was charged, hence the trial. Unless you think trials take place without charges in the UK?

You really should learn when to quit. You're seriously giving the comedy channel a run for the money.

He was never convicted because there is no such crime.

What does whether or not he was convicted have to do with your question?? Let me remind you what you asked:

You think if a Muslim man had consensual sex with Jewish woman in North America and lied about being Jewish, he would be charged with rape?

That's charged, not convicted. You asked if we think he could be charged, and I cited an example where a man in the UK was charged with rape by deception, thus giving an example of what you asked for in the UK.

So sorry, but all your babbling only digs you deeper. When you're wrong, you're wrong, and no amount of backtalk/moving the goalposts/babbling will change that. It does make your responses even funnier though, so your posts aren't entirely without purpose.

You posted two supposed examples and you came out scoring 0 points. One has not become law and the other, he was never convicted, because there is no such law.

Want to try again?

Again with the "not convicted" when the man was charged, which is what you asked about, and claimed he wasn't.

See?

He was never charged in the UK.

And once again, yes, he was charged in spite of all your babbling attempts to claim otherwise.

Edited July 21, 2010 by American Woman

[Guest American Woman]

I do not suppose we could forget the usual Israel/Palestinian crap and turn this into a discussion about " rape by deception " in general?

I was just thinking about this, and I think it is a legitimate charge, but it should be kept highly situational. I am not sure that the case in the article should qualify, because it does not really contain complete information about the motive.

Since it doesn't contain complete information about the motive, how can you begin to determine that it shouldn't qualify?

The sudden thought that had occurred to me, which is why I decided to post in this topic, is the classic case of statutory rape between a consenting minor and a deceived adult. If there are grounds to believe that an adult who had sex with a minor under the mislead impression that they were an adult would never knowingly consent to sex with a minor, should that not mean, by the same token, that the minor should be charged with this same " rape by deception " ?

I've always felt that when a minor leads an adult into thinking they are legal age of consent and everything would lead any other person to believe the minor was an adult under the circumstances, that charges against the adult were totally unfair.

I don't think the minor can be charged with the rape by deception, though, by the very fact that they are a minor entering into an act with an adult. In other words, I think the same 'contracts between and adult and a minor aren't legally binding' principle would apply.

Edited July 21, 2010 by American Woman

[Remiel]

Since it doesn't contain complete information about the motive, how can you begin to determine that it shouldn't qualify?

I cannot say definitively, of course. That is why I wanted more information. But it is not necessarily the case that an Arab lying about being a Jew in order to get laid is necessarily any more sinister than a cab driver lying about being an air pilot to get laid.

I've always felt that when a minor leads an adult into thinking they are legal age of consent and everything would lead any other person to believe the minor was an adult under the circumstances, that charges against the adult were totally unfair.

I don't think the minor can be charged with the rape by deception, though, by the very fact that they are a minor entering into an act with an adult. In other words, I think the same 'contracts between and adult and a minor aren't legally binding' principle would apply.

Is sex counted as a contract now? That seems completely off to me. If a minor kills an adult though, it is not like they can get off based on being unable to join the " social contract " . It would be silly to let someone get away based on a technicality designed for a completely different situation.

[Guest American Woman]

I cannot say definitively, of course. That is why I wanted more information. But it is not necessarily the case that an Arab lying about being a Jew in order to get laid is necessarily any more sinister than a cab driver lying about being an air pilot to get laid.

Seems to me there might be a difference, and the difference being that the Arab knew the woman wouldn't sleep with him if he weren't Jewish, so he purposely said he was. I think that's a bit different than a man knowing a woman wouldn't sleep with him if he weren't a pilot, which wouldn't be the case, and so just tipping the odds in his favor by claiming to be a pilot.

The thing is, many Jews will only marry other Jews, while I know of no sect/organization/group et al who will only marry airline pilots. I have to assume that the Arab knew this about the woman. Otherwise why would he have claimed to be Jewish?

Is sex counted as a contract now? That seems completely off to me.

I didn't say it was counted as a contract; I said that I think the same principle would apply. "Consent" and "contracts" between two people aren't so different that the idea that the same principle might apply is off the wall.

If a minor kills an adult though, it is not like they can get off based on being unable to join the " social contract " .

There's nothing consenting about being killed, while there is consent involved in both contracts and sex between two people as we are referring to it, so your example isn't relevant to the issue.

Edited July 21, 2010 by American Woman

[GostHacked]

I guess no one really likes to roleplay anymore.

[Remiel]

There's nothing consenting about being killed, while there is consent involved in both contracts and sex between two people as we are referring to it, so your example isn't relevant to the issue.

Maybe the example is not great, but your refutation needs work too, I just realized. The entire premise of " statutory rape " is that the minor cannot consent. And I believe this inability to consent is distinct from the kind that prevents them from entering into contracts. After all, a parent can enter into a contract on a childs behalf, but they cannot consent to sex on a childs behalf, unless I am mistaken.

[naomiglover]

I was just thinking about this, and I think it is a legitimate charge, but it should be kept highly situational. I am not sure that the case in the article should qualify, because it does not really contain complete information about the motive.

The sudden thought that had occurred to me, which is why I decided to post in this topic, is the classic case of statutory rape between a consenting minor and a deceived adult. If there are grounds to believe that an adult who had sex with a minor under the mislead impression that they were an adult would never knowingly consent to sex with a minor, should that not mean, by the same token, that the minor should be charged with this same " rape by deception " ?

There is too much of a grey area involved in this. This is why it has not become law in North America and Europe.

[Bonam]

I don't think that consensual sex should be prosecuted criminally even in cases of deception, unless it involved deception that is likely to lead to physical harm (i.e. not disclosing that you have AIDS). There are already far too many rape cases that are frivolous and do not actually involve anything remotely resembling rape. That being said, misrepresenting who or what you are in order to get sex is a sh*tty thing to do.

[Jack Weber]

I don't think that consensual sex should be prosecuted criminally even in cases of deception, unless it involved deception that is likely to lead to physical harm (i.e. not disclosing that you have AIDS). There are already far too many rape cases that are frivolous and do not actually involve anything remotely resembling rape. That being said, misrepresenting who or what you are in order to get sex is a sh*tty thing to do.

Aw..C'mon...

Guys have been "misrepresenting themselves" to get laid since...Forever...