World Cup 2010

[msj]

he already had one yellow this would've called for an ejection, the other thought is the ref or AR saw it but the ref choose to let play continue under the advantage, but once the advantage was lost Puyol should have been ejected...but we know the Spanish never cheat

Where in this thread did anyone claim one team or the other cheats?

Spoiler tactics is not cheating.

There is a clear distinction. One is merely dirty while cheating is cheating (say, using your hand to help you score a goal and you don't tell the ref about it).

a foul is a foul, whether it comes by a hard mistimed tackle or dive or hold they still rate a yellow card to think only one side was fouling is niave...

Well, I have taken a look at Spain and the Netherlands over this tournament and the Netherlands, prior to the final game, fouled, on average 1.5 times more than Spain and had 5 times more yellow cards (when considering the final game those numbers change to 1.6 times and 3 times respectively over the whole tournament).

Maybe the Netherlands got through some really bad refereeing until the final or maybe their system is to play "physical" (I'll use the polite term for arguments sake - don't want to make any Dutch fanboi's cry ).

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

I wonder what Webb has against the Dutch, though?

Edited July 13, 2010 by msj

[msj]

based on the preceeding game which no one is complaing about in which a dutch player was kicked in the head with such terrific force that he had to be taken to the hospital for scans...

Oh, I didn't know that the ref should take what happened in a preceding game into account during this game.

it's reckless play and card for that is yellow not red...red is given for intent to injure but then you have to prove intent, a player flying through the air to meet a 50/50 ball is certianly reckles but it's hard to prove intent, once a player leaves his feet to challenge for a ball there is no putting on the brakes or changing direction so there will be a inevitable collision...the optics are much worse than the tackle was, if he was intending to injure the opponent he wouldn't have gotten up...yellow card was the right call

Fair enough. Arguably it was only a yellow, and I can live with that.

three of those yellows never happened, phantom calls...interestingly the annoucers remained quiet on the replays when they showed no contact...

I agree that one was a phantom (the 2nd yellow to the Dutch defender should have been a yellow to Spain for diving).

But, sometimes refs see it differently in real time and one would expect a team would adjust themselves accordingly if only to make it to penalty kicks.

I give Holland credit for continuing to play for the win when down to 10 men and it's too bad they didn't make it to penalties where they had at least a 50/50 shot at it.

Edited July 13, 2010 by msj

[msj]

sorry I've seen it a dozen times, Ineista was clearly offside on the initial attempt to play the ball to him...unless there has been a rule change that I'm not aware of (which is possible)the flag should have gone up for an offside...if it was legal then it would an interpretion of the rule that the offside situation ended when the dutch defender played the ball back...

Well, I posted the rules (and even quoted the part of the rules that SF/PF forgot about) and according to my eyes Iniesta looked to be level with one of those Dutch defenders on the first (failed) pass.

Maybe the linesman saw it your way and allowed play on due to the dutch defender playing the ball back.

Or maybe he saw it my way and considered the Dutch defender to be as close to the goal line as Iniesta and, therefore, Iniesta was not offside.

[wyly]

Where in this thread did anyone claim one team or the other cheats?

Spoiler tactics is not cheating.

There is a clear distinction. One is merely dirty while cheating is cheating (say, using your hand to help you score a goal and you don't tell the ref about it).

breaking the rules is cheating regardless the offence they both are given equal weight according to the rules but in reality that rarely happens...I was a master of what some call the "black arts" many yellows but never a red, I was detested by my opponents...oops, my bad there was one red but it was rather undeserved...

Well, I have taken a look at Spain and the Netherlands over this tournament and the Netherlands, prior to the final game, fouled, on average 1.5 times more than Spain and had 5 times more yellow cards (when considering the final game those numbers change to 1.6 times and 3 times respectively over the whole tournament).

but that is dependent on your opponents as well, unless spain played the same opponents the stat is meaningless...as well when you're comparing visible tackles vs covert offense that go uncalled

Maybe the Netherlands got through some really bad refereeing until the final or maybe their system is to play "physical" (I'll use the polite term for arguments sake - don't want to make any Dutch fanboi's cry ).

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

ya the dutch will have to start diving and conning the refs and then that'll be ok right?

I wonder what Webb has against the Dutch, though?

who other than you said he did?...he f***** up the match...

[SF/PF]

Well, I posted the rules (and even quoted the part of the rules that SF/PF forgot about) and according to my eyes Iniesta looked to be level with one of those Dutch defenders on the first (failed) pass.

That I forgot about? The only doubt there can be on that replay relates to the interpretation of the "gaining an advantage" part of the rule. The Spanish attacker was quite clearly in an offside position.

[SF/PF]

Well, I have taken a look at Spain and the Netherlands over this tournament and the Netherlands, prior to the final game, fouled, on average 1.5 times more than Spain and had 5 times more yellow cards (when considering the final game those numbers change to 1.6 times and 3 times respectively over the whole tournament).

New study finds that obvious physical play results in more foul calls than subtle cheap shots. News at 11!

Maybe the Netherlands got through some really bad refereeing until the final or maybe their system is to play "physical" (I'll use the polite term for arguments sake - don't want to make any Dutch fanboi's cry ).

Your inability to understand the difference between physical and dirty doesn't reflect on anyone but yourself, my friend.

I wonder what Webb has against the Dutch, though?

Where has anyone here implied that he had something against the dutch?

Webb lost his ability to control the game by handing out yellows like candy early on for both minor fouls and non fouls. At that point, his only option to try and exert control was to begin ejecting players. He didn't want to do that, and the game quickly devolved on both sides.

Perhaps you noticed the Spanish team swarming the officials every time a Spanish player touched the grass? Or the Dutch team disputing several calls late in the game? Webb lost control of the match.

Criticism of an official doesn't imply bias.

[wyly]

Oh, I didn't know that the ref should take what happened in a preceding game into account during this game.

Fair enough. Arguably it was only a yellow, and I can live with that.

the refs are supposed to be on the same page, they are instructed on how to call games to be as consistent as possible...I had this same debate with a group of refs and they told me that a kick top the head is reckless but not a red card offense if there is no intent...

I agree that one was a phantom (the 2nd yellow to the Dutch defender should have been a yellow to Spain for diving).

disagree surprisingly, there was a foul the dutch defender did indeed have his hand on Iniestas shoulder but he released him, Iniesta chose to embelish the foul and dropped to draw a yellow card which technically it was but a very soft one...the problem is the earlier yellow issued to the defender wasn't a yellow...

But, sometimes refs see it differently in real time and one would expect a team would adjust themselves accordingly if only to make it to penalty kicks.

yes it's a difficult job but for years fans and players have been complaining about teams taking a dive to draw a penalty, freekick or yellow/red card and FIFA does nothing to stop it...here's an example of Spains midfielder Sergio Busquets succeeding in having a player ejected from a game... in comparison to a questionable tackle this is rarely punished and pisses opponents off to no end...

I give Holland credit for continuing to play for the win when down to 10 men and it's too bad they didn't make it to penalties where they had at least a 50/50 shot at it.

holland traditionally has a horrible record at penalties so I'd say they're less than 50%... Edited July 14, 2010 by wyly

[wyly]

That I forgot about? The only doubt there can be on that replay relates to the interpretation of the "gaining an advantage" part of the rule. The Spanish attacker was quite clearly in an offside position.

he was clearly offside I question if there is something new in the rules that says the dutch negated the offside when they attempted to clear the ball?...last time I played the original pass to Iniesta would have been offside the moment it was played forward, he was the only spanish player there and was the intended target the ball does not need to reach him for it him to be offside...

[wyly]

New study finds that obvious physical play results in more foul calls than subtle cheap shots. News at 11!

and up to this match the number of cards handed out wasn't out of the ordinary for a side that plays physical football, quite normal for any game I played in to have that many yellows...

[Shady]

Spain's style of play isn't very conducive to entertaining soccer. I really wish it would have been a Germany/Netherlands final. I think FIFA should adopt a rule similar to that of basketball's over and back rule. Once you bring the ball across center, you can't bring it back.

[Jack Weber]

Spain's style of play isn't very conducive to entertaining soccer. I really wish it would have been a Germany/Netherlands final. I think FIFA should adopt a rule similar to that of basketball's over and back rule. Once you bring the ball across center, you can't bring it back.

I can't stand soccer...But I've wondered about how to make it remotely interesting and that's something I've thought about.Something like a back court violation for going back to your side of half.

Another might be to get rid of that stupid offside rule and allow offensive players to get behind the defense...

Not saying I'd watch it any more than I do now(which is precisely never),but it might make it a little more interesting...

[SF/PF]

I can't stand soccer...But I've wondered about how to make it remotely interesting and that's something I've thought about.Something like a back court violation for going back to your side of half.

That would probably have the exact opposite effect as intended. The most successful teams in the tournament were all very skilled at limiting the opponents progress and options in the mid-field. I think you'd see a stale mate in the midfield, with neither team willing to attack due to the risk of a counter-attack catching them light on defence.

Another might be to get rid of that stupid offside rule and allow offensive players to get behind the defense...

The offside rule really does add to the excitement of the game, since it requires well timed passes and cagey runs, rather than just trying to dump the ball to a cherry picker in behind the defence. It would also limit the defence's ability to join in the counter-attack, which are some of the most entertaining moments in the game.

[msj]

but that is dependent on your opponents as well, unless spain played the same opponents the stat is meaningless...as well when you're comparing visible tackles vs covert offense that go uncalled

Sure sure.

The point of using averages over the 6 or 7 game sample is to get an idea of style of play.

Sure, the sample size is small but I think it matches what we saw each team do: Holland played "physical" throughout and it bit them in the behind in the final and Spain played relatively clean which is why they won the FIFA award for fair play and, coincidentally, the World Cup.

ya the dutch will have to start diving and conning the refs and then that'll be ok right?

Spain did relatively little diving.

I find it funny how people like you will accuse teams of various things that "don't get called" and accuse the other team of committing these "black arts" and being dirty and the ref is none the wiser.

Yes, some things get called incorrectly. That happens to both teams and we could probably go through the match minute by minute pointing this out for both teams.

Usually, the team that is "dirty" gets caught and this shows up as "fouls" and cards in the statistics.

Or isn't it, by your definition, the case that Holland "cheated" more than Spain since they got more cards than Spain?

As for the "black arts" being applied - we are restricted with what we can see by the TV camera angles.

There is no way to fairly claim that this team did or didn't do this.

To suggest otherwise is pathetic fanboyism.

The referee calls the fouls/cards as he sees them and as they occur.

who other than you said he did?...he f***** up the match...

I guess you should also blame the linesman for not calling that "offside" too.

No, the ref did an ok job in a difficult situation where one team played "physical" and ultimately paid the price for it.

Your whining ain't gonna change the score line.

[msj]

That I forgot about? The only doubt there can be on that replay relates to the interpretation of the "gaining an advantage" part of the rule. The Spanish attacker was quite clearly in an offside position.

What I meant is that you did not post the entire rules for offside. I assumed that you mistakenly did not post the section that I ended up quoting above and will quote the entire section here:

It is not an offence in itself to be in an offside position.

A player is in an offside position if:

• he is nearer to his opponents’ goal line than both the ball and the

second-last opponent

A player is not in an offside position if:

• he is in his own half of the fi eld of play or

• he is level with the second-last opponent or

• he is level with the last two opponents

Offence

A player in an offside position is only penalised if, at the moment the ball

touches or is played by one of his team, he is, in the opinion of the referee,

involved in active play by:

• interfering with play or

• interfering with an opponent or

• gaining an advantage by being in that position

[i have bolded the part that you did not include in your post above and which is very relevant to the offside question]

My opinion and, I have guessed the opinion of the linesman, is that when the first attempted pass was sent in, Iniesta was considered level with one of the Dutch defenders, and, therefore, not offside.

Now, a different Dutch defender intercepted the pass for which a Spanish player got the ball back and then passed it to Iniesta a second time and that was clearly on-side (as we all agree).

I would like to see that first pass with better quality and in super slow motion but that's only to satisfy my curiosity.

In real time I cannot blame the linesman for his call (or non call) because the game, like life, allows for human error.

I can live with that since it's only a game.

[msj]

New study finds that obvious physical play results in more foul calls than subtle cheap shots. News at 11!

That's the point - the Dutch coaching, if not the players, should realize the risks they are taking and adjust themselves accordingly.

If you want to play that way then sometimes you pay for it. That shouldn't be news to anyone.

Your inability to understand the difference between physical and dirty doesn't reflect on anyone but yourself, my friend.

Physical play is one thing. Physical play where you try to disrupt the flow of a game by striking ankles, chest, etc... is another thing and I think it was a strategy employed to do just that.

Heck, if I was the Dutch coach I would have been doing exactly this as I think it is the right strategy.

The Dutch just didn't execute it very well and got caught on it - hence the many fouls and yellow cards.

Where has anyone here implied that he had something against the dutch?

Webb lost his ability to control the game by handing out yellows like candy early on for both minor fouls and non fouls. At that point, his only option to try and exert control was to begin ejecting players. He didn't want to do that, and the game quickly devolved on both sides.

Perhaps you noticed the Spanish team swarming the officials every time a Spanish player touched the grass? Or the Dutch team disputing several calls late in the game? Webb lost control of the match.

Criticism of an official doesn't imply bias.

I was being sarcastic when I made that statement hence the rolleyes.

Webb handed out yellow cards like candy because the players deserved it.

Spain got 5 yellow cards and all, including Inestia's for his personal message on his shirt, were deserved under the rules.

Holland got 9 and 8 were certainly deserved (at least when considered from the perspective of the referee and considering he doesn't get the benefit of TV replays).

As for teams swarming the referee - yes, they do that, particularly when one of their players has been hit in the chest with cleats and one may wonder whether there was intent or not.

That's less questionable than Robben stalking the referee asking about a yellow card (and foolishly getting one himself in the process).

Edited July 14, 2010 by msj

[msj]

he was clearly offside I question if there is something new in the rules that says the dutch negated the offside when they attempted to clear the ball?...last time I played the original pass to Iniesta would have been offside the moment it was played forward, he was the only spanish player there and was the intended target the ball does not need to reach him for it him to be offside...

I have posted a link to the rules and have even quoted the offside rules so there is no need to speculate about whether there is something new in the rules.

Go read them again until you understand them.

Either my interpretation is right (the linesman considered Iniesta to be even with one of the Dutch defenders at the moment his teammate attempted to pass the ball) or one of the other rules kicks in that, in the linesman opinion, didn't make it offside.

Go take a look at the rules and watch it again to see what you think. And don't forget to watch the position of the linesman at the top of the screen.

But hey, maybe we should have TV replay for all such goals just in case.

Edited July 14, 2010 by msj

[msj]

the refs are supposed to be on the same page, they are instructed on how to call games to be as consistent as possible...I had this same debate with a group of refs and they told me that a kick top the head is reckless but not a red card offense if there is no intent...

Sure, and I can only guess that Webb thought he was calling the game as he saw it.

disagree surprisingly, there was a foul the dutch defender did indeed have his hand on Iniestas shoulder but he released him, Iniesta chose to embelish the foul and dropped to draw a yellow card which technically it was but a very soft one...the problem is the earlier yellow issued to the defender wasn't a yellow...

We could spend days going through the match picking out fouls and it won't change a thing.

So your team didn't win and part of the reason was due to too many yellow cards.

Well, maybe they should have adjusted their tactics.

yes it's a difficult job but for years fans and players have been complaining about teams taking a dive to draw a penalty, freekick or yellow/red card and FIFA does nothing to stop it...here's an example of Spains midfielder Sergio Busquets succeeding in having a player ejected from a game... in comparison to a questionable tackle this is rarely punished and pisses opponents off to no end...

Link doesn't work.

Is that link from the World Cup or are you cherry picking from other games and then assuming that that exact thing happened in the WC?

I'm sure we could spend years cherry picking stuff about various players and claim one thing or another occurred in the World Cup.

Or, we could watch the game again (as I intend on doing later in the month) and see what actually happened in this game.

holland traditionally has a horrible record at penalties so I'd say they're less than 50%...

I guess so. Haven't looked up their record so don't know the facts for either team.

But I imagine their odds of wining the game when down to 10 men would have been less than 50% too.

Sadly (or not, depending on how one views penalty kicks) we never got to see that play out.

[msj]

and up to this match the number of cards handed out wasn't out of the ordinary for a side that plays physical football, quite normal for any game I played in to have that many yellows...

Oh, I didn't know you played football at the World Cup before.

[Shady]

That would probably have the exact opposite effect as intended. The most successful teams in the tournament were all very skilled at limiting the opponents progress and options in the mid-field. I think you'd see a stale mate in the midfield, with neither team willing to attack due to the risk of a counter-attack catching them light on defence.

I don't think you properly understand the over and back rule.

[msj]

Here's an interesting article about the basic shape of the teams. Thought it was interesting.

Apparently the most common passing pattern in the first half was Mathijsen to Steklenburg (Dutch defender to Dutch goal keeper) for those who want to discuss rules to reduce such things.

Edited July 14, 2010 by msj

[SF/PF]

I don't think you properly understand the over and back rule.

If players did not have the option of passing or moving the ball back across the centre, you would see a game in which the team possessing the ball constantly hit a brick wall when trying to progress into the offensive half. The attacking team would lose the ball in the mid-field constantly due to the other team being able to effectively lock down the field.

I suspect that the ultimate effect of such a rule would be the teams going back and forth playing long balls that would resemble tennis more than anyhting. If the offence couldn't lay the ball back to supporting players, the risk of counterattacks would be too great for most teams to regularly try to bring the ball through the midfield.

[msj]

Well, I watched the game again and here's what I have come up with:

1) I have less sympathy for Holland than I did initially.

2) Both teams had some good chances to score and it's interesting how some of the chances were similar (a ball goes through the Spanish penalty area and the Dutch player fails to strike it and a similar event happens vice versa later in the game, Ramos fails to head in a good chance and a Dutch player fails in similar fashion, Robben in the clear doesn't get a ball high enough and Casillas gets a foot on it and a Spanish player (I think Fabregas) in the clear doesn't strike a ball as well as he would have hoped and Stekelenburg keeps it out). [Yes, I know many games, like life, have parallels, it's just that I find them interesting is all]

3) The game was better watching it a second time. Not surprising as I usually find this to be the case: less emotions when you know the outcome and you can spend more time watching tactics and play. Speaking of tactics, check out parts 2 and 3 from zonal marking (warning to wyly - you're probably not going to like part 3 based on your prejudice in post #207).

4) The Dutch were as whiny as the Spanish and this is not because of the fact that they received (rightfully) more yellow cards.

Van der Wiel's yellow card right after the goal was scored summed it up for me. He argues with the linesman, throws the football hard to the ground in front of the ref and who knows what profanities he's spewing. Funny to watch the second time round. Even funnier than Robben's stalking of the referee (granted, Robben had more cause).

5) The right team won. Spain really did outplay Holland even though it took 120 minutes to do it.

Yes, Dutch fanboy's will say otherwise, but any repeated viewing of the game shows that the Spanish had more "if" chances to score than the Dutch had "if" chances to score plus "if" chances to legitimately complain of poor refereeing, combined.

-------------------------

Maradona looks like he will coach Argentina again - too bad.

They have the talent to win a WC but not enough tactical intelligence to overcome the talent and tactical strengths of worthy teams like Holland, Spain, Germany, Brazil and possibly even Uruguay.

But I'm not gonna cry for Argentina - they get what they deserve with such a selection.

Edited July 17, 2010 by msj

[msj]

Since we had a discussion about offside and the Spanish goal I thought I would post this article coming from England on the "new" offside rule (it was introduced in 2005).

I believe this is the same rule as applied at the World Cup 2010.

Match of the Day caught offside

I found it from Why don’t more sides score goals like this? which has some good examples.