Does Canada face any imminent military threat to its territory?

[eyeball]

Ok, how about the "experts" and "parliamentarians" PAY for it too then?

No no no no no!

If they're going to war in our name we are the one's who should pay for it. We're a democracy and as such we're responsible for what our soldiers do in our names. We should also be responsible for deciding when to send them as well as paying for the decision process and the consequences of being wrong.

Unfortunately our four or five year election cycle in our FPTP and the deeply distrustful partisan environment that exists in Parliament is terribly suited for this business.

[Army Guy]

We need to have a national debate about that. Very few Canadians would argue we dont need the capability to assert our sovereignty over our territories and protect ourselves from attack.

Until they get the bill then there is alot of "buts" or you don't need that, That is where i'm very sceptical about the whole process....2 newfies in a row boat is not my idea of a navy....

But the idea of using our military to police the world, and project our values onto others by force or as you say "fight evil" is harder to define and predict, and those types of "projects" are often counter productive and damage our own security.

would you say feeing millions starving to death is a bad thing, or doing it by military force is a bad thing....

Im VERY nervous about any multi-national institution being in a position to either impact our military spending, or cause us to enter into a conflict. I think Canada played a more positive role in the world when stayed out of wars unless they were wars of last resort.

I find it hard to believe that our morals and values that most of us have, would allow us to sleep at night after filling our bellies with beer and our local fast food jiont when millions across the globe are dieing and it is within our power as a G-8 nation to do something about it...even if it was done with a big stick....

[Army Guy]

Fair enough, why are you so fearful of letting these same Canadians have the final word on whether to send you to war in a foreign land?

I'm not fearful of letting them decide on whether which fight they send us, in fact i depend on it....it is having them decide on what equipment i bring to the fight that i have a problem with....

Civilians would be well advised to never turn their back on the scene. In my experience as a fireman even your most trusted team-mate and leader can turn out to be a serial arsonist. It was happening right under my nose and when it finally registered and I looked out in the world at all the hero's who were desperate to do their stuff and show it to the world...I paused to consider...

one bad apple does not mean the whole bucket is bad, most soldiers have no asperation of becoming a hero, they just want to serve, believe or not some Canadians think it is an honor to give back something to our nation, that has given them so much, and has so much to offer others...Most hero's i know do not want the attention....in the military most wanna be hero's are weeded out quickly....

[ToadBrother]

one bad apple does not mean the whole bucket is bad, most soldiers have no asperation of becoming a hero, they just want to serve, believe or not some Canadians think it is an honor to give back something to our nation, that has given them so much, and has so much to offer others...Most hero's i know do not want the attention....in the military most wanna be hero's are weeded out quickly....

There was a time when many Canadians who believed it was an honor to serve. They flocked off to conflicts like the WWI, WWII and the Korean War, where Canadian soldiers achieved honor and acclaim, and won their country the respect of the great powers. Since then, we've become a spoiled, self-serving society that views the age-old career of the soldier with contempt, perhaps believing that all battles worth fighting have been fought.

[dre]

Until they get the bill then there is alot of "buts" or you don't need that, That is where i'm very sceptical about the whole process....2 newfies in a row boat is not my idea of a navy....

would you say feeing millions starving to death is a bad thing, or doing it by military force is a bad thing....

I find it hard to believe that our morals and values that most of us have, would allow us to sleep at night after filling our bellies with beer and our local fast food jiont when millions across the globe are dieing and it is within our power as a G-8 nation to do something about it...even if it was done with a big stick....

I find it hard to believe that our morals and values that most of us have, would allow us to sleep at night after filling our bellies with beer and our local fast food jiont when millions across the globe are dieing and it is within our power as a G-8 nation to do something about it...even if it was done with a big stick....

Youre assuming that nation states or associations of nation states are motivated by altruism but thats just not true. They are motivated by self interest. We flat out IGNORE most of the "evil" going on the world because it happens in areas where theres not compelling self interest to motivate us.

So the whole idea of using our military as a tool of our "morals and values" rings pretty hollow to me. I actually see those things more as being buzzwords and talking points that are used to sell various actions to the tax payer, when really almost all foreign policy now and in history is compelled by national interest not altruism.

[dre]

There was a time when many Canadians who believed it was an honor to serve. They flocked off to conflicts like the WWI, WWII and the Korean War, where Canadian soldiers achieved honor and acclaim, and won their country the respect of the great powers. Since then, we've become a spoiled, self-serving society that views the age-old career of the soldier with contempt, perhaps believing that all battles worth fighting have been fought.

I dont think thats the case. I think its more a case that Canadians have become more skeptical about what national and world leaders tell them when theyre beating the drums of war and rightfully so. When humanitarianism and "morals and values" are given as the reasons for war people dont believe it any more, because the west has a history of using these terms as a shroud around actions that are motivated by self interest, and ignoring many of the areas in the world that really COULD use our help.

If I thought there was an honest broker of this brand of justice that was willing to apply it evenly then Id have a way more open mind to it. But the fact is that there isnt.

[eyeball]

There was a time when many Canadians who believed it was an honor to serve. They flocked off to conflicts like the WWI, WWII and the Korean War, where Canadian soldiers achieved honor and acclaim, and won their country the respect of the great powers. Since then, we've become a spoiled, self-serving society that views the age-old career of the soldier with contempt, perhaps believing that all battles worth fighting have been fought.

Yes they believed it but did they really know it? Did they really win the respect of the great powers or did they just do their bidding without question because they'd been told that's what a good obedient little patriot does?

Since then society has come to develop a great deal of skepticism about the veracity and common sense of the great powers, perhaps believing that most of the battles they pick are unjust and unjustified.

[eyeball]

I'm not fearful of letting them decide on whether which fight they send us, in fact i depend on it....it is having them decide on what equipment i bring to the fight that i have a problem with....

You're not fearful of letting voters decide which fights to send you to via referendum? Just so we're clear I'm not talking about a vote on an imminent military threat to our territory - imminent meaning an invasion force approaching our east, west, or north coasts or about to cross our border from the south. I'm talking places like Afghanistan. You'd accept Canadians voting on that?

one bad apple does not mean the whole bucket is bad, most soldiers have no asperation of becoming a hero, they just want to serve, believe or not some Canadians think it is an honor to give back something to our nation, that has given them so much, and has so much to offer others...Most hero's i know do not want the attention....in the military most wanna be hero's are weeded out quickly....

I realize that. It's the people who want to bask in their honor and use it as both a shield against criticism and as a ram with which to make people believe their propaganda that is the problem. They are the people sending you to war right now, not ordinary Canadians.

[ToadBrother]

Yes they believed it but did they really know it? Did they really win the respect of the great powers or did they just do their bidding without question because they'd been told that's what a good obedient little patriot does?

Since then society has come to develop a great deal of skepticism about the veracity and common sense of the great powers, perhaps believing that most of the battles they pick are unjust and unjustified.

Yeah, helping defending our King's realms from being overrun by a fascist nightmare that, in alliance with like-minded nightmares in Italy, Hungary and Japan, threatened to basically seize big chunks of Eurasia, that was utterly unjustified.

It doesn't surprise me you have contempt for the older generations. Your self-righteousness, cowardice and ignorance have made you a literal perfect storm of pseudo-skeptical post-modernist blather.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Yes they believed it but did they really know it? Did they really win the respect of the great powers or did they just do their bidding without question because they'd been told that's what a good obedient little patriot does?

Since then society has come to develop a great deal of skepticism about the veracity and common sense of the great powers, perhaps believing that most of the battles they pick are unjust and unjustified.

Yep defending themselves and their allies against a fascist dictator who wanted to take over the world and wipe out huge chunks of the population because they weren't the right colour. No way to justify that.

[eyeball]

Yeah, helping defending our King's realms from being overrun by a fascist nightmare that, in alliance with like-minded nightmares in Italy, Hungary and Japan, threatened to basically seize big chunks of Eurasia, that was utterly unjustified.

No what was really unjustified was the huge mess the King and all his buddies made of things in the War to end all Wars. The huge mess millions more had to die in while trying to clean it up.

It doesn't surprise me you have contempt for the older generations. Your self-righteousness, cowardice and ignorance have made you a literal perfect storm of pseudo-skeptical post-modernist blather.

What I really have contempt for are pedantic little backward looking butt-sniffs like you who forever suck up to the Powers That Be like they were God's gift to mankind.

In the meantime notice how the Powers That Be are still wallowing around in a world that's bogged down in no less than 120 conflicts. Many with no end in sight. You figure it's us little people that are the cause of all these stupid wars?

[ZenOps]

It will be interesting to see how Canadians with deal with a possible internal conflict.

If Duceppe or a future seperatist gets his wish, and Quebec breaks apart from Canada you can almost be assured he will nullify the British land treaties with the natives. That could easily cause a three way conflict within the nation.

Who gets to use those F-35s in that situation (other thread)? I'm thinking British english speaking Canada will.

I am a much stronger supporter of the Crown under Elizabeth II, not so much under Charles III. The French seem to not have as strong a tie with their monarchy "Let them eat Cake!" but they do seem to have a fairer system than the British (some would say more socialist - if you speak French that is.)

Brits already have crown divvied land under British Dominion, the rest of us (including many French) do not. "French" Quebec, much like "British" Columbia could very well be in Canadas future if we cannot agree to some closer semblance of nation of unification.

In a physical war between East and West Canada over ideals (like the bloody North South US civil war) I'm pretty sure I would not shoot a Frenchman at distance, even if the government mandated it.

I'm not sure how WWII vets felt about shooting men of other nationalities (Italians, Germans, etc.) at distance.

Edited June 14, 2010 by ZenOps

[eyeball]

So, am I to understand we're back to worrying about an imminent invasion of our territory from European fascists again?

Okay I'll play that game. Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. Fool me three times...then I say we preemptively nuke the whole freakin' European continent before there is a next time.

[eyeball]

$10 bucks says that if the next generation of fascists in Europe turn their sights on Muslims that the usual warmongering suspects around here will solemnly say "it's not our fight" or "we should let nature take it's course".

[Guest TrueMetis]

$10 bucks says that if the next generation of fascists in Europe turn their sights on Muslims that the usual warmongering suspects around here will solemnly say "it's not our fight" or "we should let nature take it's course".

$100 Bucks says the people who really matter will intervene.

[ToadBrother]

So, am I to understand we're back to worrying about an imminent invasion of our territory from European fascists again?

You made a blanket statement. I falsified it. Then, in typical eyeballess fashion you petulantly wrote this:

Okay I'll play that game. Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. Fool me three times...then I say we preemptively nuke the whole freakin' European continent before there is a next time.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Fer shure dood.

[eyeball]

You made a blanket statement.

Horseshit. In typical TB fashion you reached way way back into the distant past to conjure up fears about some long dead dictators. You really think this is an appropriate way to assess or discuss imminent military threats to our territory?

Yeah, that's what I meant. Fer shure dood.

So just how many world wars are you prepared to fight against European tyrants and fascists? At which point do you finally tell them to clean up their own damn mess?

[Topaz]

Perhaps if countries put as much money and brain power behind peace talks, with very open minded, maybe we could save alot of lives! Yes, I know that doesn't make corporation wealthy, especially those who make the weapons, but we better find a better way to communicate or we will that world that reduces the population of this planet greatly. It so easy to start a war but harder to stop one from happening.

[ToadBrother]

Horseshit. In typical TB fashion you reached way way back into the distant past to conjure up fears about some long dead dictators. You really think this is an appropriate way to assess or discuss imminent military threats to our territory?

Yes, your arguments are so much more believable when no one brings up events that falsify them. That's why extremists on your side of the political game are as bad as the extremists on the other. Both fear history, because in history lies the lessons for today and tomorrow, and that impinges upon your need to do something, anything, to fill the hunger for change.

So just how many world wars are you prepared to fight against European tyrants and fascists? At which point do you finally tell them to clean up their own damn mess?

As many as it takes. If Europe were to fall to despots tomorrow, it wouldn't be too long before we'd follow. That's why FDR pushed the US into WWII, because he knew that if the Fascists won, American democracy would be the next to collapse.

[eyeball]

The basic causes of World War II were the nationalistic tensions, unresolved issues, and resentments resulting from the First World War...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_World_War_II'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_World_War_II

AKA the mess the powers that be left to be cleaned up...

The causes of the military conflict, which began in central Europe in August 1914, included many intertwined factors, such as the conflicts and antagonisms of the four decades leading up to the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_World_War_I

...it just goes on and on. If Europe were to fall to despots tomorrow the despots would probably have their hands too full just hanging onto power to afford projecting it beyond Europe.

To hell with them if they persist in fighting and if they do try to cross the pond nuke em'.

Edited June 15, 2010 by eyeball

[Army Guy]

Youre assuming that nation states or associations of nation states are motivated by altruism but thats just not true. They are motivated by self interest. We flat out IGNORE most of the "evil" going on the world because it happens in areas where theres not compelling self interest to motivate us.

NO, Your assuming that the people have no control over these nation states or associations, what do you think would happen if millions of people flocked to Ottawa in say protest of the Afghan war...Our politicians can't fart in public with out a poll being done...we need to take advantage of thier weakest piont, the sole objective of our politicians is to get re elected....

So the whole idea of using our military as a tool of our "morals and values" rings pretty hollow to me. I actually see those things more as being buzzwords and talking points that are used to sell various actions to the tax payer, when really almost all foreign policy now and in history is compelled by national interest not altruism.

But both can be tied together...National interests , should be what is best for the nation, or the majority of the people....not tied to one party, group, or interest...

[Army Guy]

You're not fearful of letting voters decide which fights to send you to via referendum? Just so we're clear I'm not talking about a vote on an imminent military threat to our territory - imminent meaning an invasion force approaching our east, west, or north coasts or about to cross our border from the south. I'm talking places like Afghanistan. You'd accept Canadians voting on that?

Yes, provided there was caveats in place, and the voters took thier decisions seriously....Afghanistan is not a very good example, keep in mind that the Majority of Canadians signed off on that mission....and although today the majority does not support the mission, and will say so on some forum or poll thats all they are willing to do....hence why there needs to be caveats in place, Caveats that protect soldiers lifes....

That being said Canadians can't get off thier asses to vote in regular elections, other than making it law, or inventing a more user friendly voting system it's not going to work...

I realize that. It's the people who want to bask in their honor and use it as both a shield against criticism and as a ram with which to make people believe their propaganda that is the problem. They are the people sending you to war right now, not ordinary Canadians.

Ordinary Canadians have given up , for the most part and as long as our foreign affairs don't interfer with Hockey Pogy checks and beer prices they don't care....

[ToadBrother]

Yes, provided there was caveats in place, and the voters took thier decisions seriously....Afghanistan is not a very good example, keep in mind that the Majority of Canadians signed off on that mission....and although today the majority does not support the mission, and will say so on some forum or poll thats all they are willing to do....hence why there needs to be caveats in place, Caveats that protect soldiers lifes....

War has always been the hardest thing for democracies to negotiate adequately. Wars often require a kind of long-term planning that is hard to sustain when you have to go to the polls every four or five years. Voters frequently think only in the short term (our boys are getting killed, we need to pull out).

[Army Guy]

War has always been the hardest thing for democracies to negotiate adequately. Wars often require a kind of long-term planning that is hard to sustain when you have to go to the polls every four or five years. Voters frequently think only in the short term (our boys are getting killed, we need to pull out).

The Afghan mission was not hard to Negotiate, in fact the scenes from 9/11 was motivation enough....most of Canada could not wait until our "troops to go over and kick some ASS.." I remember heading of on my first tour, and seeing signs from the crowds that lined the streets....reading GET SOME, or kill em all let god sort them out....today the signs read a whole lot different like torturers, bullies, killers....not many but they are out there...

Voters must own that decision to send our troops anywhere, it's not just our hands that have blood on them it's every Canadian who shared in that decision....it's a commitment that needs to be seen through start to finish.....if you stand there pushing us on to a plane, then you need to stand behind us the entire trip...if they don't have the stomach to see it thru then Stay the F*** home or change your sign.......Our military for the most part does not hand out candies and blankets like most believe....we are sent to make peace and rebuild a nation via the use of force...

[dre]

The Afghan mission was not hard to Negotiate, in fact the scenes from 9/11 was motivation enough....most of Canada could not wait until our "troops to go over and kick some ASS.." I remember heading of on my first tour, and seeing signs from the crowds that lined the streets....reading GET SOME, or kill em all let god sort them out....today the signs read a whole lot different like torturers, bullies, killers....not many but they are out there...

Voters must own that decision to send our troops anywhere, it's not just our hands that have blood on them it's every Canadian who shared in that decision....it's a commitment that needs to be seen through start to finish.....if you stand there pushing us on to a plane, then you need to stand behind us the entire trip...if they don't have the stomach to see it thru then Stay the F*** home or change your sign.......Our military for the most part does not hand out candies and blankets like most believe....we are sent to make peace and rebuild a nation via the use of force...

Voters almost never get a say in those decisions. And whats more we arent given realistic predictions as to he outcome, an honest cost/benefit analysis, or even a coherent plan most of the time.