Israeli Navy Raids Gaza Aid Flotilla, 10 Confirmed Dead

[dre]

Legal or illegal there is no passive way to run a blockade...

The passive way would have been either to dock in Israel or Egypt, as they were invited to do. They didn't....

5 of 8 aid missions that have been sent by the group who organized the Flotilla have landed successfully in GAZA without incident so apparently it IS possible to peacefully run a blockade.

[Bob]

Prove that five of eight aid mission arrived in Gaza, peacefully bypassing the blockade.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Bob

[Guest American Woman]

5 of 8 aid missions that have been sent by the group who organized the Flotilla have landed successfully in GAZA without incident so apparently it IS possible to peacefully run a blockade.

I think it is possible, and I think that "peaceful way" is to allow Israel to check the cargo, as they were trying to do in this instance. None of the other ships in the flotilla were fired upon, so it makes me wonder why this last ship would have been singled out and fired upon. It makes no sense that Israel would have suddenly started firing without reason.

If the passengers didn't allow Israel to check the cargo, then they weren't "peacefully" running the blockade, but rather involving themselves in the conflict.

If they did allow the soldiers to enter peacefully, I can't imagine why Israel would start shooting indiscriminately, especially if five out of 8 missions have landed peacefully; I would think that's proof that Israel isn't preventing aid from getting in.

Edited June 12, 2010 by American Woman

[dre]

The Gaza Freedom Flotilla, comprised of eight ships, was organized to break Israel's naval blockade of the Gaza Strip.[52] This was the tenth time that the Free Gaza Movement had tried to ship aid to Gaza.[53] Five aid shipments had been allowed through

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid

[Bob]

I think it is possible, and I think that "peaceful way" is to allow Israel to check the cargo, as they were trying to do in this instance. None of the other ships in the flotilla were fired upon, so it makes me wonder why this last ship would have been singled out and fired upon. It makes no sense that Israel would have suddenly started firing without reason.

If the passengers didn't allow Israel to check the cargo, then they weren't "peacefully" running the blockade, but rather involving themselves in the conflict.

If they did allow the soldiers to enter peacefully, I can't imagine why Israel would start shooting indiscriminately, especially if five out of 8 missions have landed peacefully; I would think that's proof that Israel isn't preventing aid from getting in.

To me it's not that complicated - it's like a border checkpoint. I was driving through the US earlier this month, going between Toronto and NYC. Guess what, when at the border I had to deal with an American border officer who had the right to search my stuff if he felt it necessary. The same thing is true when I returned home with the Canadian Border Services officer. I can't simply flip off the CBS officer and claim that I'm delivering humanitarian aid.

Now, I'm aware of the differences between this example and what happened off the coast of Gaza. The status of the waters being international doesn't change the fact that Israel controls those waters to prevent the smuggling of arms to Gaza. Israel doesn't legally own those waters, but it morally must control them to protect its citizens. If you remove the blockade, Israelis will be murdered. That isn't debatable. Israel has a moral duty to keep things out of Gaza as Gaza has shown itself to be a domain of belligerence. End of story.

Those who condemn the blockade should consider if they had a hostile group/nation living alongside them, would you be concerned about letting that territory acquire chocolate and perfume? On a moral level, Israel is obliged and fulfils its role by allowing in the basics (food, clothing, medicine, etc), but cannot be expected to overburden itself by inspecting every single thing into the territory of Gaza. There's an element of hard feelings here, as well. Can you really expect Israelis to sympathize with Gazans, after thousands of rockets and hundreds of murders over several decades originating from that strip of land? What about the rhetoric coming from the bottom and the top of Gaza (Hamas leadership and ordinary folks in the streets espousing hatred of Israel and Jews)? Should Israelis ignore that? Simply imagine if a portion of Quebec exhibited but a fraction of this hostility towards Canada - would out hearts be bleeding to help out these people who we mostly view as anomic? Remember, most Israelis don't draw a sharp distinction between Hamas and Gazan resident - indeed, there is a great overlap between the two. Didn't Hamas apparently win the last election by a large margin? All I'm saying is that people should imagine that they were in a position similar to Israel, with a hostile neighbour: would you expect a blockade imposed by your government on the hostile territory to protect you? Of course you would.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Bob

[Bob]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid

So you don't have any proof....

[dre]

I think it is possible, and I think that "peaceful way" is to allow Israel to check the cargo, as they were trying to do in this instance. None of the other ships in the flotilla were fired upon, so it makes me wonder why this last ship would have been singled out and fired upon. It makes no sense that Israel would have suddenly started firing without reason.

If the passengers didn't allow Israel to check the cargo, then they weren't "peacefully" running the blockade, but rather involving themselves in the conflict.

If they did allow the soldiers to enter peacefully, I can't imagine why Israel would start shooting indiscriminately, especially if five out of 8 missions have landed peacefully; I would think that's proof that Israel isn't preventing aid from getting in.

If they did allow the soldiers to enter peacefully, I can't imagine why Israel would start shooting indiscriminately, especially if five out of 8 missions have landed peacefully; I would think that's proof that Israel isn't preventing aid from getting in.

Actually ISrael is preventing all kinds of aid from getting in by virtually every account on earth including Israels who cite a certain ammount they allow through each week.

JERUSALEM -- The U.S. has complained to Israel over the holdup of aid shipments to Gaza of items as basic as jam, toothpaste and toilet paper, which U.S. officials say are being frequently trapped amid an erratic decision-making process.

Howard Sumka, mission director for the United States Agency for International Development in the Palestinian territories, said senior diplomats have had to intervene with Israeli authorities, and aid workers have had to repack shipments to meet changing criteria of what qualifies as vital humanitarian aid. He said the situation hasn't improved despite U.S. efforts.

A spokesman for Israel's Ministry of Defense, Peter Lerner, said humanitarian aid is getting into Gaza every day, including 110 aid trucks on Thursday.

But he acknowledged disagreements with donor countries and aid groups over what counted as humanitarian aid. "There may be differences between what we consider basic food commodities and what the various governments and aid organizations want to bring in," said Mr. Lerner. "That's where the question marks are being raised."

On Thursday, Israel rejected a shipment of 960 boxes of tuna, canned meat, diapers, wet wipes, sterile gauze, blankets and candles, along with 184 boxes of flashlights, Mr. Sumka said. A week earlier Israel had approved the shipment, but reversed the decision Wednesday evening, he said. "When you're dealing with that kind of uncertainty it makes it hard for us to plan, it creates inefficiencies and it certainly makes it more costly to deliver the assistance," said Mr. Sumka.

Virtually every organization delivering aid to Gaza has complained Israel often makes it impossible to get aid through, and has placed restrictions on a whole host of items that have nothing to do with weapons at all.

The World Health Organization (WHO) says Israel is blocking vital medical supplies from entering the Gaza Strip. The U.N. agency says it is impossible to maintain a well-functioning health system if necessary supplies are not available.

Since the end of major military operations on January 18, 2009, Israel has continued to block the entry of significant amounts of food, fuel, cooking gas, and construction materials into Gaza, as well as access by aid workers. The supplies and personnel are needed to alleviate the suffering of civilians, many of whose homes and workplaces were destroyed during Israel’s recent military operation.

[dre]

So you don't have any proof....

activists have landed in Gaza five times, with another three unsuccessful attempts since their first such voyage in August 2008. The latest is their biggest operation

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-world/aid-ships-head-to-gaza-as-israeli-warships-gather-20100530-wn9d.html

But Israel has let several aid flotillas land at Gaza over the past two years, missions designed primarily to draw attention to the blockade.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060301931_pf.html

Do you know what Google is, and have you not read a single news story about the recent Flotilla incident?

Edited June 12, 2010 by dre

[Bob]

Prove that five of eight aid mission arrived in Gaza, peacefully bypassing the blockade.

You know what, don't even waste your time. I don't have any interest in reading your posts or replying to you.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Bob

[dre]

Prove that five of eight aid mission arrived in Gaza, peacefully bypassing the blockade.

You know what, don't even waste your time. I don't have any interest in reading your posts or replying to you.

Iv already proven it. It was actually 5 of 9 prior to the latest flotilla so I supposed you could cling to that minor inaccuracy in a desperate attempt to not get dragged down by the currents in your own ocean of horseshit. Its common knowledge and nobody on earth is denying it accept you.

I don't have any interest in reading your posts or replying to you.

Stop doing it then!

[Bob]

activists have landed in Gaza five times, with another three unsuccessful attempts since their first such voyage in August 2008. The latest is their biggest operation

http://news.theage.c...00530-wn9d.html

Activists arriving in Gaza isn't the same thing as saying that flotillas carrying aid have arrived in Gaza. There's a difference between activists arriving on some small seacraft at night evading the Israeli navy and a convoy of goods and people.

I'd like to see secondary confirmation of this claim, also. Preferably from an Israeli or Arab news source. I find it unlikely that a small group of activists could evade the blockade, although anything is possible.

But Israel has let several aid flotillas land at Gaza over the past two years, missions designed primarily to draw attention to the blockade.

http://www.washingto...0301931_pf.html

Your provided quote is nowhere to be found in the article you've linked. You've yet to prove that Israel has knowingly allowed five ships carrying goods to Gaza without standard inspection. The fact is, there's no way Israel would allow such a thing during its blockade. I'm not sure how anyone could even suggest that Israel has ever knowingly given a green light to boats coming to Gaza without standard inspection since the implementation of the blockade.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Bob

[Guest American Woman]

You've yet to prove that Israel has knowingly allowed five ships carrying goods to Gaza without standard inspection.

I don't think dre is saying it was without standard inspection; I think he's just saying that it happened peacefully. His quote states that "Five aid shipments had been allowed through," so I take that as the shipments were inspected without incident, and then allowed through by Israel.

[Guest American Woman]

I dont buy a WORD that EITHER side says. Issues like this become a global public relations issue for both sides. Neither side would hesitate for a SECOND to engage in any deception possible if they thought it might help their side win that PR war.

I wouldnt trust Israelis or Palestinians as far as I can piss.

Yet there are plenty of people in the bajillion anti-Israel threads putting all the blame on Israel. Note that there aren't a bajillion anti-Palestine threads, so one anti-Israel thread after another gets old. There is plenty of blame to go around, as there is in any conflict. This whole idea that Israel is bad, and when pressed, so is Hamas, not Palestine, but Hamas, is totally diverting/absolving any blame from Palestine. And it's bull.

To me the constant anti-Israel threads are equal to propaganda.

[Bob]

I don't think dre is saying it was without standard inspection; I think he's just saying that it happened peacefully. His quote states that "Five aid shipments had been allowed through," so I take that as the shipments were inspected without incident, and then allowed through by Israel.

I'd like to see some proof of that. If it's true, then it doesn't bode well for the "activists" of this most recent flotilla, at least those aboard the Mavi Marmara.

[Guest American Woman]

I'd like to see some proof of that. If it's true, then it doesn't bode well for the "activists" of this most recent flotilla, at least those aboard the Mavi Marmara.

His original quote says: The Gaza Freedom Flotilla, comprised of eight ships, was organized to break Israel's naval blockade of the Gaza Strip.[52] This was the tenth time that the Free Gaza Movement had tried to ship aid to Gaza.[53] Five aid shipments had been allowed through

But here's the whole quote from the Wikipedia link:

The Gaza Freedom Flotilla, comprised of eight ships, was organized to break Israel's naval blockade of the Gaza Strip.[52] This was the tenth time that the Free Gaza Movement had tried to ship aid to Gaza.[53] Five aid shipments had been allowed through prior to the Gaza War of 2008–09, but all shipments following the war were blocked by Israeli forces.[54] This flotilla, the largest sent by far, was supported with one large passenger ship and two cargo ships by an Islamic aid group from Turkey, the IHH (İnsani Yardım Vakfı) (English: The Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief).

So the ships that got through were prior to the Gaza War of 2008-09, and they were part of the Free Gaza movement, not The Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief, which had organized this flotilla; and to quote one of the founding members of the Free Gaza movement, Greta Berlin:

Berlin said she does not condone the violence used by activists on the Turkish ship Mavi Marmara to try to repel Israeli commandos in the Monday raid that triggered the international crisis.

“I would not have reacted the way they did,” Berlin said. “I don’t justify their actions, but I completely understand them.” link

[Bob]

His original quote says: The Gaza Freedom Flotilla, comprised of eight ships, was organized to break Israel's naval blockade of the Gaza Strip.[52] This was the tenth time that the Free Gaza Movement had tried to ship aid to Gaza.[53] Five aid shipments had been allowed through

But here's the whole quote from the Wikipedia link:

The Gaza Freedom Flotilla, comprised of eight ships, was organized to break Israel's naval blockade of the Gaza Strip.[52] This was the tenth time that the Free Gaza Movement had tried to ship aid to Gaza.[53] Five aid shipments had been allowed through prior to the Gaza War of 2008–09, but all shipments following the war were blocked by Israeli forces.[54] This flotilla, the largest sent by far, was supported with one large passenger ship and two cargo ships by an Islamic aid group from Turkey, the IHH (İnsani Yardım Vakfı) (English: The Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief).

So the ships that got through were prior to the Gaza War of 2008-09, and they were part of the Free Gaza movement, not The Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief, which had organized this flotilla; and to quote one of the founding members of the Free Gaza movement, Greta Berlin:

Berlin said she does not condone the violence used by activists on the Turkish ship Mavi Marmara to try to repel Israeli commandos in the Monday raid that triggered the international crisis.

“I would not have reacted the way they did,” Berlin said. “I don’t justify their actions, but I completely understand them.” link

Perhaps you already know this, but Wikipedia information regarding controversial matters is to be heavily scrutinized. In all seriousness, Wikipedia is largely written by the some of types of people that we see frequenting these forums - zealous ideologues with too much time on their hands and not enough expertise.

Allow me to be specific - the Wikipedia citation for proof that five out of the previous ten attempts of this "Gaza Freedom Flotilla" to break the Israeli blockade have been allowed to reach Israel is this article. The only statement in this article, of authenticity I doubt, is this sentence:

"Normally, members of the international group aboard the flotillas are detained and deported. In the early days, before the Israeli invasion of Gaza in 2009, they were allowed to land. "

An obscure newspaper without much of a presence in Israel or the Palestinian territories making a vague statement like this is hardly substantial proof of dre's earlier claim. Certainly you'd agree. I highly doubt that Israel has ever permitted any convoys to reach Gaza uninspected since Hamas' rise to power.

[dre]

Heres more successful attempts at running the blockade.

http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/timeline-gaza-aid-attempts-by-sea-1.631602

August 2008: SUCCESSFUL: 44 people from 17 countries successfully broke the Gaza blockade by sailing to it from Cyprus in two small boats, Free Gaza and Liberty. Organizers say they were tracked by Israeli naval vessels for half of the journey and the boats’ navigation systems were jammed and tampered with. They were welcomed by thousands of Palestinians lining the shore.

October 2008: SUCCESSFUL: 27 doctors, lawyers and human rights workers from 12 countries broke the blockade successfully aboard the Dignity. Passengers included Palestinian lawmaker Mustafa Barghouthi, Nobel laureate Mairead Maguire, and Italian opera singer Joe Fallisi, who delivered Gaza’s first ever opera concert.

November 2008: SUCCESSFUL: 24 passengers including 11 European parliamentarians carried more than one ton of medical supplies broke the blockade aboard the Dignity.

December 8 2008: SUCCESSFUL: A “students” delegation, headed by professors from the London School of Economics and the British Committee for Universities for Palestine successfully broke the blockade and and successfully brought out 11 Palestinian students who had been accepted to universities abroad, but were unable to exit Gaza due to the Israeli-Egyptian siege

December 18 2008: SUCCESSFUL: Dubbed the “Qatari delegation”, it included envoys from the Qatari Eid charity, making Qatar the first Arab country to contribute to breaking the siege

[Bob]

Heres more successful attempts at running the blockade.

http://gulfnews.com/news/region/palestinian-territories/timeline-gaza-aid-attempts-by-sea-1.631602

Perhaps... let's see a reputable news agency report these incidents. Even if I accept the information in this link as truthful, it's quite a different story to transport a handful of activists to Gaza (which is still a risky proposition with respect to Israeli security) than one or more large ships carrying goods. This is important context absent from your original claim of five "aid shipments" from nine bypassing or breaking the Israeli blockade. Delivering activists is much different than delivering aid. Predictably, your original claim has evolved with every post you make in response to challenges for proof.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Bob

[dre]

Perhaps... let's see a reputable news agency report these incidents. Even if I accept the information in this link as truthful, it's quite a different story to transport a handful of activists to Gaza (which is still a risky proposition with respect to Israeli security) than one or more large ships carrying goods. This is important context absent from your original claim of five "aid shipments" from nine bypassing or breaking the Israeli blockade. Delivering activists is much different than delivering aid. Predictably, your original claim has evolved with every post you make in response to challenges for proof.

Iv provided a bunch of different links that mention my origional assertion. You dont like them... and I dont give a fuck. Im not your intern dude, if youre interested in reading about various attempts to run the blockade then go and find some information for yourself.

And my claim didnt evolve at all. I stick with what I said origionally which is the same thing the guy that organized the thing said.

Derek Graham one of the organizers of the flotilla, "We are doing this to show the people of Gaza that they are not alone. There's nothing going into Gaza, no aid. We are prepared to run the blockade to try and get aid in. We have done it before. Out of eight previous attempts, five were successful.”

And since nobody on earth has denied this besides you... thats good enough for me.

Edited June 13, 2010 by dre

[GostHacked]

Perhaps some good news.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/16/israel-set-ease-gaza-blockade/

ERUSALEM -- Israel will significantly ease its bruising land blockade of the Gaza Strip on Wednesday, officials said, in an effort to blunt the widespread international criticism that has followed a deadly Israeli commando raid on a blockade-busting flotilla.

International pressure seems to work better than International Law, if there really is any. It's not perfect, but it as at least a start.

[bloodyminded]

Perhaps some good news.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/16/israel-set-ease-gaza-blockade/

International pressure seems to work better than International Law, if there really is any. It's not perfect, but it as at least a start.

I agree. The Israel-can-do-no-wrong fanatics, while loud and screechy and prone to accusing the planet Earth of anti-semitism, are ultimately the losers when it comes to public outrage.

[GostHacked]

I agree. The Israel-can-do-no-wrong fanatics, while loud and screechy and prone to accusing the planet Earth of anti-semitism, are ultimately the losers when it comes to public outrage.

You are absolutely correct. I wonder if more posters will comment and welcome the news.

[M.Dancer]

You are absolutely correct. I wonder if more posters will comment and welcome the news.

Not sure if I welcome the news until the news becomes reality and reality still hinders terrorists from arming.

[sharkman]

Perhaps some good news.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/16/israel-set-ease-gaza-blockade/

JERUSALEM -- Israel will significantly ease its bruising land blockade of the Gaza Strip on Wednesday, officials said, in an effort to blunt the widespread international criticism that has followed a deadly Israeli commando raid on a blockade-busting flotilla.

International pressure seems to work better than International Law, if there really is any. It's not perfect, but it as at least a start.

If Israel does indeed relax their blockade, will they be experiencing a new wave of attacks from Gaza as a result? It could very well be, and if so will any of the blockade protesters on this forum admit that Israel was right? I'm not holding my breath.

[bloodyminded]

If Israel does indeed relax their blockade, will they be experiencing a new wave of attacks from Gaza as a result? It could very well be, and if so will any of the blockade protesters on this forum admit that Israel was right? I'm not holding my breath.

Sure, well, we all know that the self-styled "pro-Israel" [sic] brigade always steps up to the plate and concedes that Israel has been in the wrong....

....No, wait, the other thing....Never Admit. A pretty little mantra.