Why the hate for harper?

[Alta4ever]

Backpedaling...

Clarifing for the stupid. Who could not read it in the various posts, in many of the posts tonight.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Alta4ever

[Smallc]

I Did no such thing, I merely stated that the break up of the country could be the outcome if this course of regional politics is continued.

The federal government hasn't been playing regional politics for a long time...and the break up of the county has probably never been further from possible. We're tired of the whining.

[Alta4ever]

The federal government hasn't been playing regional politics for a long time...and the break up of the county has probably never been further from possible. We're tired of the whining.

"Frank Graves of Ekos Research, in agreement with the analysis, has told the Grits that the wedge politics of the Conservatives provide them with an opportunity to stake out a stark alternative. Stop worrying about the West, he’s told them. No need to fear polarizing the debate. It’s what worked for Mr. Chrétien against Preston Manning and Stockwell Day.

In his advice, Mr. Graves could hardly have been more blunt. “I told them that they should invoke a culture war. Cosmopolitanism versus parochialism, secularism versus moralism, Obama versus Palin, tolerance versus racism and homophobia, democracy versus autocracy. If the cranky old men in Alberta don’t like it, too bad. Go south and vote for Palin.”

Yep its not happening insert fingers in ears and sing lalalalalalala.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/michael-ignatieff-is-tacking-left-finally/article1542198/

Wow its exactly the treatment of Alberta that I was talking about.

[Smallc]

I don't know if anyone has told you this, but Chretien left office in 2003. Martin and Harper haven't been playing regional games, and there's no sign that Dion wanted to or that Ignatieff wants to. You're looking for bogey men that are long gone.

Oh, and say what you want about Chretien, but under him, Alberta enjoyed tremendous success. And quit whining about Alberta's treatment. All provinces get treated badly by someone. It's simply the reality of being in a federation. You must know how different US states, for example (I'm sure BC will be along soon....thank God I can't read his crap) argue and bicker constantly. Canada isn't unique in it's regional bickering. Such bickering is actually part of a healthy federation.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Smallc

[Jack Weber]

I don't know if anyone has told you this, but Chretien left office in 2003. Martin and Harper haven't been playing regional games, and there's no sign that Dion wanted to or that Ignatieff wants to. You're looking for bogey men that are long gone.

Oh, and say what you want about Chretien, but under him, Alberta enjoyed tremendous success.

It's based on simple regional greed and a selfish individualistic attitude that seems to eminate from that place...

Trudeau is long gone from office and pushing daisies...

[Alta4ever]

I don't know if anyone has told you this, but Chretien left office in 2003. Martin and Harper haven't been playing regional games, and there's no sign that Dion wanted to or that Ignatieff wants to. You're looking for bogey men that are long gone.

Oh, and say what you want about Chretien, but under him, Alberta enjoyed tremendous success. And quit whining about Alberta's treatment. All provinces get treated badly by someone. It's simply the reality of being in a federation. You must know how different US states, for example (I'm sure BC will be along soon....thank God I can't read his crap) argue and bicker constantly. Canada isn't unique in it's regional bickering. Such bickering is actually part of a healthy federation.

I'm sorry but this is the advise they the liberals sought from Frank Graves no my words his.

[Alta4ever]

It's based on simple regional greed and a selfish individualistic attitude that seems to eminate from that place...

Trudeau is long gone from office and pushing daisies...

I'm sorry that we don't want to waste our limited resources on unappreciative overbearing morons like you.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Alta4ever

[Jack Weber]

I'm sorry that we don't want to waste our limited resources on unappreciative overbearing morons like you.

Keep talkin',chief...

Edited June 1, 2010 by Jack Weber

[bloodyminded]

I doubt you could survive in Alberta anyway. Its best you stay away.

You're still on this trope, huh?

You know, I've met plenty of Albertans, and I doubt it's an insult to this self-styled Albertan Pluck and Manliness to assure you that Albertans are no tougher than anybody else.

[Wild Bill]

Keep talkin',chief...

Jack, you and others in this thread keep dodging around an essential point. Western alienation is real! You can disparage it and threaten to hang it all you want but it is there and it will not go away.

That being the case, the question is how do you deal with it. Keep telling Albertans that they are simply whiners with no basis at all for their frustration and you're not just telling them to leave if they don't like it. You're telling them you WANT them to leave, as fast as possible!

There are a lot of people out west and they represent a lot of votes. Unfortunately, because of the structure of our federal system, they have never had strong representation for their region. Historically, they HAVE been screwed over in favour of the East, more than once!

If Central Canada keeps telling the other provinces to just "Shut up and soldier! Who gives a damn if you have a legitimate gripe or not!" then eventually it will be no surprise that Central Canada will be the ONLY part of Canada left!

I've seen this attitude a few times at hobby clubs, only on a smaller scale, of course. You have an executive running the club that has become an old boy's clique. Any new blood is snubbed when they try to give input. If they complain they are told "That's the way it is so be loyal and shut up!"

It's no surprise that the new blood tends to disappear over the years. Eventually the club starts to shrink, as the old boys die off and no new ones are interested in joining up.

It's human nature for people to join groups for mutual advantage. Members who are treated as just a source of club dues and in tough times are used as cannon fodder cannot help but become resentful and feeling disenfranchised.

You've all been railing against Albertans for many pages of posts in this thread. If I were a new member reading your messages and I was from Alberta I think I would be rather pissed at the lot of you right now! You're the best thing to happen to the Wild Rose recruitment campaign in months!

"Albertans! Stop whining! You have absolutely no substance to your complaints! There is no need to ever change anything! If you keep doing it we will either hang you or throw you out of Confederation!"

Canadian unity? Some of you guys could set Dale Carnegie back 100 years!

[bloodyminded]

Really define equal, we are forever attacked by Ont, Quebec, they even went as far as to attack us on the international stage in Copenhagen,

You're either so arrogant or so inspired by Victim Politics that you still aren't understanding the arguments levied against your stance on this: you cite a case of Canadians criticizing Canadians....not "Canada" criticizing some separate entity, another country.

[Molly]

Wild Bill-- I'm standing, applauding. Very well said, and about 4 pages overdue.

I've long tired of hearing about the NEP and about the amount of money Albertans bring to the table, but western alienation has only ever been about money issues insofar as they represent the routine outright disenfranchisement of western provinces and audible contempt for western people and their participation in confederation. As long as that dynamic remains, this country is in grave danger of an east/west rupture. For the record, that neck of the woods won't whine about it for decades, milking it endlessly 'til they are forced to put up or shut up.

They'll just do it.

Small-c.. Saskatchewan started to make money on oil when Alberta raised their royalty rate. While Saskatchewan oil has a tendency to be heavier than Alberta oil, deeper, and sour, the technology to retrieve a lot more of it has existed for an awfully long time. Alta-4-ever is completely correct in saying that governance/attitude has severely restricted Saskatchewan's prosperity.

[Hydraboss]

I have real problems with secessionists...

I suspect some her have the same problems,they just won't articulate as harsh a position.

That's fine,they're entitled to that opinion...

In my opinion,secesh needs to be simply wiped out,no arguement,no discussion...It's called patriotism.

You advocated for it..You,and your ilk,will have to deal the consequences of those actions...

So, Alta is your target of choice even though he would rather Alberta stay in Confederation?

Tell you what skippy, if others won't "articulate as harsh a position", then I will. You want to hang an Albertan? Come and get it. I'll be sitting at the border with a little gift for you. And so would thousands of "secessionists".

Don't ever question MY patriotism to ALBERTA. I'd die to defend it, and I'd kill to defend it. Is THAT "harsh" enough a position for you? Want to call my bluff? Try it and find out. Who exactly do you think is going to storm Alberta and "put down the rebel scum"??? The military? We've got one. The RCMP? Not fucking likely. You? Ha! With what, your registered long gun?

Alberta DOES have the right to seek secession, and I for one seriously hope we go after it. Working in a broken confederation with a bunch of "entitled to my entitlements" types makes me physically sick. Join with Montana? You read my mind pinhead. At least the US would respect the State of Alberta. Look at Texas, Louisiana, and other oil/gas producing states. Think the feds walk in there and take what they want? If so, you better brush up on your US politics.

So why don't you shut your fricken yap about things you know nothing about. Stick to knitting or lattes.

[bloodyminded]

So, Alta is your target of choice even though he would rather Alberta stay in Confederation?

Tell you what skippy, if others won't "articulate as harsh a position", then I will. You want to hang an Albertan? Come and get it. I'll be sitting at the border with a little gift for you. And so would thousands of "secessionists".

Don't ever question MY patriotism to ALBERTA. I'd die to defend it, and I'd kill to defend it. Is THAT "harsh" enough a position for you? Want to call my bluff? Try it and find out. Who exactly do you think is going to storm Alberta and "put down the rebel scum"??? The military? We've got one. The RCMP? Not fucking likely. You? Ha! With what, your registered long gun?

Alberta DOES have the right to seek secession, and I for one seriously hope we go after it. Working in a broken confederation with a bunch of "entitled to my entitlements" types makes me physically sick. Join with Montana? You read my mind pinhead. At least the US would respect the State of Alberta. Look at Texas, Louisiana, and other oil/gas producing states. Think the feds walk in there and take what they want? If so, you better brush up on your US politics.

So why don't you shut your fricken yap about things you know nothing about. Stick to knitting or lattes.

Why do you insist upon feminizing, or insinuating some feminization of your opponents? And why is the feminine an insult?

[Smallc]

Small-c.. Saskatchewan started to make money on oil when Alberta raised their royalty rate. While Saskatchewan oil has a tendency to be heavier than Alberta oil, deeper, and sour, the technology to retrieve a lot more of it has existed for an awfully long time. Alta-4-ever is completely correct in saying that governance/attitude has severely restricted Saskatchewan's prosperity.

No, in fact that isn't what happened. Saskatchewan had been ramping up production for a decade, to the point last year where they were taking 160M barrels a year out of the ground. Saskatchewan's real wealth came initially from potash. It simply took time for that to fully be realized.

The reality is, as a born and raised westerner who heard all of the stories, western alienation is now a figment of the imagination of some in the west. You seem to take offence to the idea that Alberta is whining. Well, I take offence to the attitude emanating from Alberta, and I know that many other Canadians do to. I don't know if you heard, but the west god in. The Prime Minister is from there along with many of the ministers in his cabinet.....yet Albertans keep whining. The reality is, the west never really wanted in, they just wanted to bitch...and bitch they shall it seems. An Albertan can spend all his time calling down Central Canada, Quebec, Ontario, Toronto, Ottawa, have not provinces, but heaven forbid anyone say anything to Alberta.

You people have become like the oversensitive relative that everyone has to tiptoe around at a reunion. You spend so much time in self pity, talking about how you're being screwed, with the strange angry victim mentality....but you aren't victims...of anything in recent memory. The NEP is long over. It was put in by a government based in Quebec, and eliminated by a government based in Quebec. GET OVER IT. There's nothing anymore. No one is proposing it again, and no one ever will.

Now as for the last sentence in your post, well, that's the exact attitude I'm talking about. Saskatchewan started very poor...but it isn't as if they suddenly got rich when they elected a legislature that resulted in a Saskatchewan party government. No, that wealth started under the NDP, under high taxes. The reality is, high taxes don't generally lead growth....they follow it, with the hope that more growth will come. Alberta has some of the lowest taxes and highest spending in the western world because you can afford it. The rest of us can't. We still have to pay for the same services (in fact we pay for fewer), but we don't have the 'as luck should have it' resource revenue that you do. We don't have the 'as luck should have it' tourist revenue that you do. We don't have a lot of the benefits of geography that Alberta enjoys.

Here's a plain and simple message. Get over yourselves, and stop lecturing the rest of us. Unless you're trying to teach us that we all should have been born on top of large quantities of gas and oil along with probably the second best natural tourist infrastructure in Canada, we've got nothing to learn from you.

[Molly]

Oh, that's truly priceless, Small-c.

You see, I'm bred, born, raised, and lived the first half-century of my life in Saskatchewan, before packing it is as a lost cause and moving to Ontario. (Thanks, Red Roy, for making my home a place where I no longer wanted to be.)

Whoop-de-do that they've been ramping up production for a decade... That number should be 4 or more decades, and not just one. Potash, yes, has underpinned the increasing wealth, but again, it only took this long to realize that wealth because 4 decades ago, when potash was already booming, Al Blakeney put the run on anyone who wanted to invest honestly in the provinces resources by offering to expropriate the potash industry.

Saskatchewan and Alberta began as twin provinces-- if a choice was to be made, probably Saskatchewan would be considered the more richly endowed. The true divergence in their fortunes began NOT when oil was discovered in Alberta (there was also oil in Saskatchewan, and coal and uranium, and potash, and gold and.. and.. and...), but rather it occurred when each of those two provinces elected, and took on the long-term philosophy of a populist preacher.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Molly

[wyly]

You see, I'm bred, born, raised, and lived the first half-century of my life in Saskatchewan, before packing it is as a lost cause and moving to Ontario. (Thanks, Red Roy, for making my home a place where I no longer wanted to be.)

based on your knowledge after a half century can we assume you're a slow learner?

Whoop-de-do that they've been ramping up production for a decade... That number should be 4 or more decades, and not just one. Potash, yes, has underpinned the increasing wealth, but again, it only took this long to realize that wealth because 4 decades ago, when potash was already booming, Al Blakeney put the run on anyone who wanted to invest honestly in the provinces resources by offering to expropriate the potash industry.

Saskatchewan only gained have province status when commodity prices went up due to demand from growing economies of China, India and the third world, it had nothing to do with Saskatchewan internal politics...there was lot's of Potash decades ago but prices were low..

Saskatchewan and Alberta began as twin provinces-- if a choice was to be made, probably Saskatchewan would be considered the more richly endowed. The true divergence in their fortunes began NOT when oil was discovered in Alberta (there was also oil in Saskatchewan, and coal and uranium, and potash, and gold and.. and.. and...), but rather it occurred when each of those two provinces elected, and took on the long-term philosophy of a populist preacher.

the cost of drilling sask oil and the revenue to be gained from it was not in Sask's interest to sell at that time, the NDP governments were proven correct when they said the oil companies would be back and pay what it was worth Sask was not prepared to give it away...again the increasing world price that brought the oil companies back...coal was a dying industry in Sask 60 yrs ago and it's still dead and hopefully will remain so, natural gas killed the coal industry in sask not the governments...Uranium was similar to oil, the world demand and price were both low the governments never restricted it's sale...the same can be said for any resource, Sask's wealth now has to do with market demand not internal politics... Edited June 1, 2010 by wyly

[Argus]

I have real problems with secessionists...

I suspect some her have the same problems,they just won't articulate as harsh a position.

That's fine,they're entitled to that opinion...

In my opinion,secesh needs to be simply wiped out,no arguement,no discussion...It's called patriotism.

So you're suggesting we wipe out half the province of Quebec? Or don't they count as secessionists?

[Argus]

First if all,the Bloc is nothing but alot of bluster,and everyone knows it.Secession is dying in Quebec.

In other words, it doesn't bother you. It's Albertans who bother you, because they're fllthy, greedy rich people, by your estimation, who resent giving it to you. It sounds like your real problem is one of those class warfare type beliefs the NDP specializes in.

[jbg]

We Albertans are a loud bunch of rednecks, that is a given. It takes a loud voice to be heard all the way from here to Ottawa.

I'm confused. Now the thread has careened from bizarre patterns of parenting to Quebec's mammoth contributions to Canada and now to Albertan redneckedness and banjo-picking? Quite a journel. And expect updates from Page 29 to the last post as of now of this thread's wild and crazy meander.

[Molly]

Saskatchewan only gained have province status when commodity prices went up due to demand from growing economies of China, India and the third world, it had nothing to do with Saskatchewan internal politics...there was lot's of Potash decades ago but prices were low..

the cost of drilling sask oil and the revenue to be gained from it was not in Sask's interest to sell at that time, the NDP governments were proven correct when they said the oil companies would be back and pay what it was worth Sask was not prepared to give it away...again the increasing world price that brought the oil companies back...coal was a dying industry in Sask 60 yrs ago and it's still dead and hopefully will remain so, natural gas killed the coal industry in sask not the governments...Uranium was similar to oil, the world demand and price were both low the governments never restricted it's sale...the same can be said for any resource, Sask's wealth now has to do with market demand not internal politics...

Suck-er!

[jbg]

You don't think I feel patriotism Jack. My family has bled for this country jack. I have sworn allegiance to the Queen and country, have you Jack?

I don't advocate secession Jack, I warn of it as an outcome because of the way regional politics are played in this country Jack.

I think Trudeau started the dangerous game of fomenting regional and linguistic division to make the LPC the "natural governing party". It was Quebec and not Alberta that reaped this wind.

[wyly]

Suck-er!

economic 'tard!!!

[Jack Weber]

So you're suggesting we wipe out half the province of Quebec? Or don't they count as secessionists?

50% of the populous of Quebec are die hard seperatists?

You actually believe that?

[Jack Weber]

No, in fact that isn't what happened. Saskatchewan had been ramping up production for a decade, to the point last year where they were taking 160M barrels a year out of the ground. Saskatchewan's real wealth came initially from potash. It simply took time for that to fully be realized.

The reality is, as a born and raised westerner who heard all of the stories, western alienation is now a figment of the imagination of some in the west. You seem to take offence to the idea that Alberta is whining. Well, I take offence to the attitude emanating from Alberta, and I know that many other Canadians do to. I don't know if you heard, but the west god in. The Prime Minister is from there along with many of the ministers in his cabinet.....yet Albertans keep whining. The reality is, the west never really wanted in, they just wanted to bitch...and bitch they shall it seems. An Albertan can spend all his time calling down Central Canada, Quebec, Ontario, Toronto, Ottawa, have not provinces, but heaven forbid anyone say anything to Alberta.

You people have become like the oversensitive relative that everyone has to tiptoe around at a reunion. You spend so much time in self pity, talking about how you're being screwed, with the strange angry victim mentality....but you aren't victims...of anything in recent memory. The NEP is long over. It was put in by a government based in Quebec, and eliminated by a government based in Quebec. GET OVER IT. There's nothing anymore. No one is proposing it again, and no one ever will.

Now as for the last sentence in your post, well, that's the exact attitude I'm talking about. Saskatchewan started very poor...but it isn't as if they suddenly got rich when they elected a legislature that resulted in a Saskatchewan party government. No, that wealth started under the NDP, under high taxes. The reality is, high taxes don't generally lead growth....they follow it, with the hope that more growth will come. Alberta has some of the lowest taxes and highest spending in the western world because you can afford it. The rest of us can't. We still have to pay for the same services (in fact we pay for fewer), but we don't have the 'as luck should have it' resource revenue that you do. We don't have the 'as luck should have it' tourist revenue that you do. We don't have a lot of the benefits of geography that Alberta enjoys.

Here's a plain and simple message. Get over yourselves, and stop lecturing the rest of us. Unless you're trying to teach us that we all should have been born on top of large quantities of gas and oil along with probably the second best natural tourist infrastructure in Canada, we've got nothing to learn from you.

Well said!!!

It does seem that some of the Wild Rose Whiners don't seem to like it when an "Eastern Bastard",such as myself,start to call them on their crybaby act.I wish more of us would.