UPDATE detainees

[ToadBrother]

I think you mean "people suspected of terrorism or insurgency."

Fair enough. At the same time we are essentially fighting a war of sorts of there, and there hasn't been a war, particularly a modern mechanized war, that hasn't suffered these problems. It's a reality of war. If we imagine we can prevent these abuses, then we might as well bring the boys home.

And if you think things are bad in Afghanistan, just wait until our troops go into Sub-saharan Africa as some would like us to do.

[bloodyminded]

Fair enough. At the same time we are essentially fighting a war of sorts of there, and there hasn't been a war, particularly a modern mechanized war, that hasn't suffered these problems. It's a reality of war. If we imagine we can prevent these abuses, then we might as well bring the boys home.

And if you think things are bad in Afghanistan, just wait until our troops go into Sub-saharan Africa as some would like us to do.

All true. But this is a pretty different matter from indicting every abused detainee as evil. No doubt some of them are better men than the Canadian soldiers handing them over to torture-happy allies.

[Muddy]

All true. But this is a pretty different matter from indicting every abused detainee as evil. No doubt some of them are better men than the Canadian soldiers handing them over to torture-happy allies.

Well you are brave! So you feel that the Taliban has better men than our guys? When did we ever condone beheading, stoning, denying women the right to be educated, deny little girls going to school. We may have a few rascals in the midst of our army but we as a military do not condone what some of your better men in the Taliban believe and practice as a terrorist organization.

[bloodyminded]

Well you are brave! So you feel that the Taliban has better men than our guys? When did we ever condone beheading, stoning, denying women the right to be educated, deny little girls going to school. We may have a few rascals in the midst of our army but we as a military do not condone what some of your better men in the Taliban believe and practice as a terrorist organization.

Instead of drearily trying to explain what is already written, multiple times, and is perfectly obvious, I will only suggest that you go back a bit and read a few posts, to get a better idea of what was (and wasn't) said.

Because either you didn't read them, or you're illiterate. Those are the two choices.

[ToadBrother]

Well you are brave! So you feel that the Taliban has better men than our guys? When did we ever condone beheading, stoning, denying women the right to be educated, deny little girls going to school. We may have a few rascals in the midst of our army but we as a military do not condone what some of your better men in the Taliban believe and practice as a terrorist organization.

I think his point is that some of the prisoners may very well have been innocent bystanders, and that it was presumptuous of me to assert otherwise. He's right, but unfortunately, whether many Afghanis like it or not (and I'm sure they haven't liked it for over thirty years now) they're in a war zone and our capacity to assure civil liberties is somewhat limited. I'm not saying we turn the other way when Afghani police or military torture people, quite the opposite, but we have to start from the essential fact that in war, there will be unintended casualties, and short of just walking away, which would most assuredly make the Afghan people's outlook much worse, we have to accept certain realities. We didn't in Somalia, and disbanded one of the meanest, roughest bunch of fighters we've had post-war, a group that could have been damned useful now.

[eyeball]

Well you are brave! So you feel that the Taliban has better men than our guys? When did we ever condone beheading, stoning, denying women the right to be educated, deny little girls going to school. We may have a few rascals in the midst of our army but we as a military do not condone what some of your better men in the Taliban believe and practice as a terrorist organization.

What's at issue here is that when our government stooped to allying us with people who torture people, it reduced us as a country and a people to the level of the Taliban. We are now little if any better, some would say perhaps less, because we should know better.

It's like when a priest diddles a child - when a freedom loving democratic people like us shrug off torture, the affront is that much more horrifying for all the weight of moral authority we claim to be carrying.

[bloodyminded]

What's at issue here is that when our government stooped to allying us with people who torture people, it reduced us as a country and a people to the level of the Taliban. We are now little if any better, some would say perhaps less, because we should know better.

It's like when a priest diddles a child - when a freedom loving democratic people like us shrug off torture, the affront is that much more horrifying for all the weight of moral authority we claim to be carrying.

It's almost astonishing. (Though I feel I'm losing my capacity for astonishment.) Torture considered absolutely heinous, absolutely vile, the stuff of nightmares and a total abrogation of our principles....

....until we find we're culpable; then, it ain't so bad after all......

[eyeball]

Yes, I am aware of that.

So won't the Liberals be just as guilty as the Tories if they negotiate a core constitutional rule that has governed our system for over 300 years under the carpet?

They'd certainly be more pathetic I'd think.

[Muddy]

It`s war people! It is nasty and innocents get caught up in it.Very sad. But I think we should concentrate why their might be innocents caught up and taken prisoner. The Terrorists do not wear a uniform so for preservation we must always have a jaundice eye when looking at civilians. They may look like innocents but they may just be Taliban ready to destroy and maim our guys. Lets err on the side of of caution. We made a pact ,back in the Liberal days to turn prisoners over to the locals. Do you really think that we should be running POW camps? It has been my experience that good soldiers make lousey policemen in a war zone. They are not trained for this.

Lets get the Taliban to fight by the rules of war and wear a uniform and then we will have less civilians being arrested. Seems simple enough! Oh ! There I go blaming the terrorists again for this situation.

[eyeball]

We made a pact...

...with a devil.

Now we're no better than one.

[nicky10013]

Talks apparently stalled.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/talks-bog-down-in-detainee-feud/article1568144/

[ToadBrother]

Talks apparently stalled.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/talks-bog-down-in-detainee-feud/article1568144/

Tories are playing games again. I still doubt they're going to push this to a contempt motion.

[eyeball]

Talks apparently stalled.

Time to cut off their food, water and above all else, their toilet privileges.

[capricorn]

Time to cut off their food, water and above all else, their toilet privileges.

Toilet privileges? I would go more gradually, starting by substituting their Royale butt wipe with no-name. You know, the kind most of us can afford. If they don't heed, withdraw all toilet paper followed by barricading entries to lavatories.

[msdogfood]

Tories are playing games again. I still doubt they're going to push this to a contempt motion.

why thay love games

they dont know when to back down!!!!!.

[msdogfood]

Time to cut off their food, water and above all else, their toilet privileges.

nice!!.

[ToadBrother]

Afghan detainee document deal reached

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/05/14/detainee-deal.html

Told you guys. There was no way anyone wanted to go to the polls over this, and Stephen Harper certainly doesn't want to go down in history as being the first Prime Minister to have three members of his cabinet found in Contempt of Parliament.

PS. And more in depth information:

http://www.cbc.ca/politics/insidepolitics/2010/05/docwatch-the-deal-is-done.html

Edited May 14, 2010 by ToadBrother

[eyeball]

I can just imagine what the finer unwritten details of the deal say. Probably something like "we won't reveal where you cocked things up if you don't reveal where we did".

The public's only hope of finding out what it's government has been up to in our name is that the most incriminating stuff is leaked. At least we all know that politicians can't be trusted to keep their words. I mean you'd have to be pretty naive to expect something isn't going to leak out...it's just a matter of when.

Bring it on.

[ToadBrother]

I can just imagine what the finer unwritten details of the deal say. Probably something like "we won't reveal where you cocked things up if you don't reveal where we did".

The public's only hope of finding out what it's government has been up to in our name is that the most incriminating stuff is leaked. At least we all know that politicians can't be trusted to keep their words. I mean you'd have to be pretty naive to expect something isn't going to leak out...it's just a matter of when.

Bring it on.

The Opposition has everything to gain by humiliating the Tories over this. My suspicion is that guys like you have spent too much time drinking the kool-aid. Aren't you the one with the fantasies that this will end up in the Hague?

[M.Dancer]

Afghan detainee document deal reached

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/05/14/detainee-deal.html

Told you guys. There was no way anyone wanted to go to the polls over this, and Stephen Harper certainly doesn't want to go down in history as being the first Prime Minister to have three members of his cabinet found in Contempt of Parliament.

PS. And more in depth information:

http://www.cbc.ca/politics/insidepolitics/2010/05/docwatch-the-deal-is-done.html

Such a simple solution. It is amazing that, after the second world war, the korean war, october crisis....it's amazing that a simple mechanism hadn't been in place to dal with issues of national security, regardless of the reason.

[msdogfood]

The Opposition has everything to gain by humiliating the Tories over this. My suspicion is that guys like you have spent too much time drinking the kool-aid. Aren't you the one with the fantasies that this will end up in the Hague?

it will leak out look at us!!!

[msdogfood]

Any one thinking the Del will fall apart soon anyway???.

[ToadBrother]

Any one thinking the Del will fall apart soon anyway???.

Forgive me if I don't have a lot of confidence in your prognosticatory abilities.

[Topaz]

If this is anything like some of the committee meetings were the Tories HAVE control, there will be stalling of papers, and when they get close to were the truth will come against the Tories, its now time for an election which Harper will call. IF they wouldn't come out in the past with the truth they aren't going to do it now. Just like the summer the Tories and the opposition parties were going to come to an agreement on EI, which they didn't, BUT they stalled all summer. Get ready for a fall election or winter.

[wyly]

If this is anything like some of the committee meetings were the Tories HAVE control, there will be stalling of papers, and when they get close to were the truth will come against the Tories, its now time for an election which Harper will call. IF they wouldn't come out in the past with the truth they aren't going to do it now. Just like the summer the Tories and the opposition parties were going to come to an agreement on EI, which they didn't, BUT they stalled all summer. Get ready for a fall election or winter.

that's what I was thinking, a panel of four and tens of thousands of documents this could take years which is exactly what they want...

Edited May 14, 2010 by wyly