Are Most Anti-Gay Leaders Closeted Homosexuals?

[WIP]

from the Daily Beast:

Who hasn’t accidentally hired a male hooker as a luggage boy? Anti-gay leader and co-founder of the Family Research Council George Alan Rekers claims he was just looking for someone to help him carry his luggage when he hired a male prostitute whose online profile (probably NSFW) advertises his taste for “spanking” and “shaving,” among other sexual acts. Contacted by the blog Joe.My.God. via Facebook, Rekers said that “due to surgery I require assistance in lifting luggage when traveling,” and goes on to claim that he was helping the prostitute/luggage boy known as “Luicen” by teaching him that “[1] It is possible to cease homosexual practices to avoid the unacceptable health risks associated with that behavior, and [2] the most important decision one can make is to establish a relationship with God for all eternity by trusting in Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross for the forgiveness of your sins, including homosexual sins. If you talk with my travel assistant that the story called ‘Lucien,’ you will find I spent a great deal of time sharing scientific information on the desirability of abandoning homosexual intercourse, and I shared the Gospel of Jesus Christ with him in great detail.”

Hmmmm, I wonder if the Religious Right will buy it, or will they have to throw him under the bus like Ted Haggard.

[Shwa]

That is interesting.

I know someone who, as a teen, was one of the most vehemently anti-homosexual persons you could ever meet. We actually thought he was a little over the top phobic. Nope, just turns out he was gay. Eventually.

[ToadBrother]

That is interesting.

I know someone who, as a teen, was one of the most vehemently anti-homosexual persons you could ever meet. We actually thought he was a little over the top phobic. Nope, just turns out he was gay. Eventually.

I hate making sweeping generalizations. But one does wonder why some people have such a negative emotional attachment to homosexuality. I mean, look at a guy like Mr. Canada. Sometimes you just sort of wonder...

Myself, I don't give a crap. Providing it's between consenting adults in whatever numbers or combination, it isn't any of my business. There are far more important things in life to worry about than who the person next to you is doing in bed.

[Michael Hardner]

I mean, look at a guy like Mr. Canada. Sometimes you just sort of wonder...

I'm sure he's aware of the dichotomy there. I can't see why else anyone would take such an interest in videotaping acts that they ostensibly opposed, unless there were something in it for them.

[WIP]

That is interesting.

I know someone who, as a teen, was one of the most vehemently anti-homosexual persons you could ever meet. We actually thought he was a little over the top phobic. Nope, just turns out he was gay. Eventually.

I started wondering the same thing about a friend at work, when he sheepishly asked me to help him clean up his computer. Seems Mr. Family Values was going on gay forums and chat rooms to vent his bile at homos and got loaded with malware. He was especially concerned that his wife would discover a gay screensaver that was uploaded to his computer. I never did get a complete answer for why he felt so motivated to go out of his way to do this in the first place.

On the public stage, there's the continual rumours about Fred Phelps and I can't forget the the founder of Exodus International -- the Christian gay fixing group who got caught walking out of a gay bar in Miami a couple of years back. His excuse was remarkably similar to George Reker's -- he said he was frequenting gay nightclubs as part of his soul-saving mission....but if he convinced anyone, unfortunately it wasn't James Dobson, who was providing the bulk of his funding and demanded that he resign from Exodus International.

Looking at the big picture, these sorts of problems are caused by holding on to old superstitions that are outdated. It's especially tragic when young people grow up in fundamentalist homes and internalize these beliefs. No surprise that gay teens have the highest suicide rates, and these gay preachers and priests that occasionally come stumbling out of the closet in sex abuse scandals are often there because they thought joining the ministry or the priesthood would cure them of their homosexuality. Whenever, if ever the day comes when people can just be themselves, wherever they fit on the spectrum of sexual attractions, these sorts of problems will not have to exist.

[Shady]

Using this same so-called logic. Why are most Muslims terrorists? Right? Because all of you've named at least what, 5 leaders? Out of tens of thousands? And I assume by so-called anti-gay, you mean Christian or Evangelical. So again I'll ask. Why are most Muslims terrorists?

[ToadBrother]

Using this same so-called logic. Why are most Muslims terrorists? Right? Because all of you've named at least what, 5 leaders? Out of tens of thousands? And I assume by so-called anti-gay, you mean Christian or Evangelical. So again I'll ask. Why are most Muslims terrorists?

There are 1.5 billion Muslims out there. Clearly most Muslims are not terrorists.

At any rate, I think the thread is a bit of a joke, sort of like you, except our joke is tongue-in-cheek.

[Oleg Bach]

They have that privledged English boarding school mindset..that buggering a weakingling creates an obedient slave..much like the extremist Muslim gangsters screw little boys and create future submissive suicide bombers...it's not that these leaders mentioned are closet cases...it's a case of them being cruel and dangersous barbarians that know that de-sexing a male removes the maleness and creates a sub human slave..who usually become fashion designers who explain to the buggers what shades of pink are appropriate as far as place settings go...most who seek ulitmate power are perverts ..look at old Henry Kissinger....quote.."Power is the greatest assist to the maintaining of an errection" ---to para phrase..in other words bombing a villages gives some a hard on...sexual dysfunction is rampant amoung the rich and powerful...there kids are kinky as hell and have no ethics when it comes to sex..gay or other wise.

[WIP]

Using this same so-called logic. Why are most Muslims terrorists? Right? Because all of you've named at least what, 5 leaders? Out of tens of thousands? And I assume by so-called anti-gay, you mean Christian or Evangelical. So again I'll ask. Why are most Muslims terrorists?

Here in North America, the monotheism we have to deal with is Christianity, not Islam. I know what problems they have, and I don't see a whole lot of value in targeting what Muslims are doing over there, especially when right wing Christians are trying to move in the same direction here, and increase the power of Christendom. And since this is off topic, I'm sure the problems for gays are worse there, especially since homosexuality is a capital offense, even in places where America is interfering with, such as Iraq. But it must be noted that, thanks to American evangelicals like Rick Warren, homosexuality may be a capital offense here as well. The criminalization of homosexuality in Uganda was not caused by Muslims, but by the influence of Warren and other American evangelicals. They are acting out there the kind of things they would do here if they had the power to do so!

A lot of the problems in the Muslim World have come as a result of a giant inferiority complex and attempt to act out and look for blame. While Islam was growing and considered the center of the civilized world, they were far more liberal and tolerant than the Christian West. That is how they ended up with most of the Jewish Diaspora after all. But, by the end of the Ottoman Empire, fingers were pointing in lots of directions, and rather than look inside and re-evaluate the control of religious clerics on society, they mostly decided that the problem was lack of religion, rather than too much religion. Combine the fundamentalist fervor with the interference of Western infidel empires taking oil, building military bases, controlling their shipping lanes, and you have the mix that spawns a continual supply of new terrorists. It's worth noting that Muslim terrorism is a recent phenomena, especially suicide bombing. The first suicide bombers were Tamils fighting in Sri Lanka, not the Palestinians.

Don't look now, but the rhetoric of the right in the U.S., with it's "Christian Nation" and "American Exceptionalism" themes are heading right down the same road. America is looking like an empire about to collapse and acting hostile and impulsively just like most past failing empires have. And that's the main reason why I have had to move away from attempts by the right to focus all of our attention on what the Muslims are doing, rather than look at what's happening to Christianity here in North America.

There are many progressive Muslims who are trying to reform their societies and attitudes about religion, women and law, but as long as the term 'secularism" is connected with American values or atheists who want an end to all religion, secularism will be impossible to sell under the present situation. It would be a big help to back off the automatic support for everything Israel does, get out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and especially end dependence on Mideast oil. Then the Muslim World will figure out what role religion should play in their societies.

[Oleg Bach]

AS a math professor or musicans brain changes and becomes formed by conditioning from repeated actions...so does the sexuality of the population through constant conditioning..we have a nation of whores , whore mongers..hetro-phags with no sense of honour - and full blown homos who are not men or woman but things...welcome to the brave new world of engineered mutationism..as George Orwell said..in this world of deciet..to speak the truth is revolution...soon no one will have the mind to even think of revolting against oppression..and logic along with common sense and sanity will be be a thing of the past.

How many people do you see on the street talking to themselves today? I saw ten withing ten blocks as I walked..and it is spreading- bright people are the first to snap and break..then all that is left are the stupid bureacrat parasites to rule...and before you know it ...hell will have arrived in full rotten bloom..good luck.............."My people perish for lack of knowledge"- that says it all.

[ToadBrother]

AS a math professor or musicans brain changes and becomes formed by conditioning from repeated actions...so does the sexuality of the population through constant conditioning..we have a nation of whores , whore mongers..hetro-phags with no sense of honour - and full blown homos who are not men or woman but things...welcome to the brave new world of engineered mutationism..as George Orwell said..in this world of deciet..to speak the truth is revolution...soon no one will have the mind to even think of revolting against oppression..and logic along with common sense and sanity will be be a thing of the past.

How many people do you see on the street talking to themselves today? I saw ten withing ten blocks as I walked..and it is spreading- bright people are the first to snap and break..then all that is left are the stupid bureacrat parasites to rule...and before you know it ...hell will have arrived in full rotten bloom..good luck.............."My people perish for lack of knowledge"- that says it all.

Ah good, ignorance, bigotry and fallacious thinking all wrapped up into one cozy post.

[Pliny]

Ah good, ignorance, bigotry and fallacious thinking all wrapped up into one cozy post.

The standard, unoriginal, non-thinking post.

[Oleg Bach]

Ah good, ignorance, bigotry and fallacious thinking all wrapped up into one cozy post.

Correct or incorrect at least my posts are orignial thoughts and theory based on observation..when was the last time you had an original non-programmed thought? Hot button words like bigotry...and fallacious...is all false that differs from what you were taught? Have you ever considered that your formal education and conditioning might just be based on a little bit of lieing?

[bloodyminded]

Correct or incorrect at least my posts are orignial thoughts and theory based on observation..when was the last time you had an original non-programmed thought? Hot button words like bigotry...and fallacious...is all false that differs from what you were taught? Have you ever considered that your formal education and conditioning might just be based on a little bit of lieing?

Funny. I'm 43...which I'm sure you'll agree is not especially old (nor especially young, alas), and i went through the usual years of formal educaiton; and homosexuality was never, not once to my recollection, ever discussed. There was, however, a tacit acceptance of the idea that homosexuality is a bad thing, an assumption which was spread throughout the culture.

In other words, your conditioning, which taught you that homosexuality was bad, was perhaps based on a "little bit of lying."

[Pliny]

Funny. I'm 43...which I'm sure you'll agree is not especially old (nor especially young, alas), and i went through the usual years of formal educaiton; and homosexuality was never, not once to my recollection, ever discussed. There was, however, a tacit acceptance of the idea that homosexuality is a bad thing, an assumption which was spread throughout the culture.

In other words, your conditioning, which taught you that homosexuality was bad, was perhaps based on a "little bit of lying."

Oleg is speaking from his personal experience not any type of "conditioning". He is a personality...your views are not from experience just an expression of what's going around. You yourself admit it wasn't once ever discussed so what kind of experience do you have? You knew a guy once who was gay? You see them around and think they are ok?

I am not suggesting Oleg is gay. Because of his participation in the arts, which is an attraction to homosexuality, he has thus had ample opportunity to rub shoulders with them. His experiences have been negative. So although anecdotal, I doubt you will find any truth in the politically correct perspective - it is after all politically correct, and a socially conditioned perspective.

As a post script. This thread is just an example of how deceitful homosexuals are, not how deceitful right wing anti gay leaders are. Although, vehemence may be an indication of a closet homosexual.

"Methinks though dost protest too much!" comes to mind when I see things like this.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Pliny

[Pliny]

Are most anti-gay leaders closeted homosexuals?

I suppose some are but any closeted homosexuals would find it a good place to stay hidden in the closet. It's an illustration of the homosexual way, not of leaders.

It's sort of like do-gooders being used by politicians. If you are a power hungry politician you claim to be a do-gooder as you silently work your magic for self-aggrandizement using all the good intentioned people around you. Some are never exposed they are so good at hiding it.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Pliny

[bloodyminded]

Oleg is speaking from his personal experience not any type of "conditioning". He is a personality...your views are not from experience just an expression of what's going around. You yourself admit it wasn't once ever discussed so what kind of experience do you have? You knew a guy once who was gay? You see them around and think they are ok?

You assume a lot. My views are based on the fact that I have known many homosexuals. My sister, especially, is quite well known to me.

and while there's no way for you to know this, I can't imagine why you'd take it as an article of faith that "[my] views are not from experience just an expression of what's going around."

Oleg, on the other hand, who bases his opinions on some laughably stupid notion that homosexuals are simply bad people--well, if you wish to take him at his word that this is based on his "experience,"--and more to the point, that his personal experience with homosexuals is bad, and this can be extrapolated outwards to support his openly bigoted, malicious, paranoid raving delusions about gay people--well, that's your business.

But yes, without a doubt at all, his views are the result of cultural indoctrination against homosexuality.

Not some real, lived "experience."

Hating homosexuality IS, all the way, 100%, "socially conditioned."

It's not an objective assessment one arrives at by being strongly independent of mind and disinclined to "political correctness."

it is after all politically correct, and a socially conditioned perspective.

If one is a right wing Christian, then opposing homosexuality is a politically correct, socially conditioned perspective.

As a post script. This thread is just an example of how deceitful homosexuals are, not how deceitful right wing anti gay leaders are.

How so? Please be specific.

Although, vehemence may be an indication of a closet homosexual.

I doubt it very much.

"Methinks though dost protest too much!" comes to mind when I see things like this.

Are you talking about Oleg, or those who disagree with his outright bigotry?

Because if you're talking about those who don't have a problem with homosexuality...well, they're not strictly protesting anything, are they? Unless you mean they're closeted right wing religious folk...but that's a hard sell, I think.

It's an illustration of the homosexual way, not of leaders.

there is no "homosexual way." Do you even know what you're talking about?

Or do you--God forfend--think that Oleg is on to something with his petty hatred and paranoid delusions about gay people?

Edited May 7, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Pliny]

You assume a lot. My views are based on the fact that I have known many homosexuals. My sister, especially, is quite well known to me.

Yes, and she lives a happy life, I'm sure.

and while there's no way for you to know this, I can't imagine why you'd take it as an article of faith that "[my] views are not from experience just an expression of what's going around."

You said you hardly even discussed it in your education and there was only a tacit understanding that it was a bad thing.

Now you have a sister who is gay and have known many homosexuals. And next thing you know you'll be claiming to be homosexual yourself - not that there is anything wrong with that.

Oleg, on the other hand, who bases his opinions on some laughably stupid notion that homosexuals are simply bad people--well, if you wish to take him at his word that this is based on his "experience,"--and more to the point, that his personal experience with homosexuals is bad, and this can be extrapolated outwards to support his openly bigoted, malicious, paranoid raving delusions about gay people--well, that's your business.

But yes, without a doubt at all, his views are the result of cultural indoctrination against homosexuality.

Not some real, lived "experience."

If Oleg's experience had been positive he would have no trouble saying so. He isn't influenced by cultural attitudes or politically correct attitudes. He says what he thinks from his own perspective.

Of course, you are a free thinker and will set the world straight. (Sorry, bad pun)

I don't mind what Oleg says, his experience is his experience. You too may say what you think but I don't find your point of view to be an expression of you. I find it to be an expression of current political correctness. Besides I know you have to defend your sister as a loving warm human being. Frankly, I can understand lesbianism. Women are very beautiful and I don't see what their attraction is to men at all.

Hating homosexuality IS, all the way, 100%, "socially conditioned."

It's not an objective assessment one arrives at by being strongly independent of mind and disinclined to "political correctness."

I agree. Hating homosexuality is conditioned. It's something that

sounds kind of odd to me and I think society since the beginning of time found it a bit odd. In today's world of tolerance we have to change our mind and think of it as normal for some people.

I understand homosexuals have do what they do - have sex with the same gender but even they think it is odd.

If one is a right wing Christian, then opposing homosexuality is a politically correct, socially conditioned perspective.

Oleg is a right wing Christian?

How so? Please be specific.

Pointing to anti-gay right wing christian leaders being closet homosexuals may be true. Let's just say they are all closet homosexuals. Now we know the sheep's clothing that closet homosexuals prefer to wear.

"Methinks though dost protest too much!" comes to mind when I see things like this.

Are you talking about Oleg, or those who disagree with his outright bigotry?

Because if you're talking about those who don't have a problem with homosexuality...well, they're not strictly protesting anything, are they? Unless you mean they're closeted right wing religious folk...but that's a hard sell, I think.

Yeah. They are protesting any opposition to their point of view.

there is no "homosexual way." Do you even know what you're talking about?

Or do you--God forfend--think that Oleg is on to something with his petty hatred and paranoid delusions about gay people?

Maybe he is a closet homosexual. But I think he is more about live and let live. I'm sure if you had your choice you would choose your friends and enemies. Enemies are people you can't trust. Oleg just doesn't trust them,that's his experience. Other than that I think he would leave them to live their own lives as long as they don't infringe upon his.

[bloodyminded]

Yes, and she lives a happy life, I'm sure.

You said you hardly even discussed it in your education and there was only a tacit understanding that it was a bad thing.

Now you have a sister who is gay and have known many homosexuals. And next thing you know you'll be claiming to be homosexual yourself - not that there is anything wrong with that.

I deeply resent your bold insinuation here that I'm being deceptive...but let me clear up a pretty simple matter of logic (which you'd have already intuited if you had paid attention to the discussion in context):

Oleg made a direct comment about indoctrination through formal education.

I am 43 years old. So when I was in school, we didn't discuss it. And there was a tacit understanding that it was a bad thing.

You find this hard to believe? I didn't think so. (In fact, I think you're just being argumentative, but only the Lord Godzilla on His throne knows why.)

You even concede this point later...that the prejudices and hatreds against gay people used to be much more pronounced. Well, it was much more pronounced 25 years ago, when I was in school. Do you doubt this? (No...you don't.) Why you don't believe me...I dunno. You have trouble believing that I didn't hear much about homosexuality in an educational context in the '70s and '80s; but Oleg's rampant stories about homosexuals treating everybody badly...well, you have no reason to doubt that. That's merely "his experience." [

Whereas MY experience--that homosexuals are normal people just like everybody else--why, that's just too wild to think on. So I must be making it up.

Pointing to anti-gay right wing christian leaders being closet homosexuals may be true. Let's just say they are all closet homosexuals. Now we know the sheep's clothing that closet homosexuals prefer to wear.

"Methinks though dost protest too much!" comes to mind when I see things like this.

First of all, I personally don't agree that anti-gay right wing Christian leaders are closeted homosexuals; not in any number incommensurate with closted homosexuals generally. So, that isn't my view. Hopefully that's now clear.

Second, you seem to be suggesting that this says something bad about homosexuals (ie they're innately deceptive, or some such preposterous claim), rather than those who are afraid (because of stigma and religion) to out themselves.

Do you think there's something innately sinister about homosexuals...that they have some sort of inherent character flaw?

If so, you're ignorant. If not, excellent.

Yeah. They are protesting any opposition to their point of view.

Yes, but that wasn't your insinuation. You were trying to suggest, not altogether successfully, that those who defend homosexuals, at least those being "vehement" about it, might be closted homosexuals themselves.

And again: at most, I would presume it to be roughly the same number, give or take, across the entire spectrum of politics, ideology, or advocacy.

Maybe he is a closet homosexual. But I think he is more about live and let live. I'm sure if you had your choice you would choose your friends and enemies. Enemies are people you can't trust. Oleg just doesn't trust them,that's his experience. Other than that I think he would leave them to live their own lives as long as they don't infringe upon his.

If a person simply "doesn't trust homosexuals," that person is an ignorant bigot.

Of course that's his right. But there IS NO right NOT to be called out on one's bigotry.

Edited May 7, 2010 by bloodyminded

[WIP]

As a post script. This thread is just an example of how deceitful homosexuals are, not how deceitful right wing anti gay leaders are. Although, vehemence may be an indication of a closet homosexual.

"Methinks though dost protest too much!" comes to mind when I see things like this.

Yeah right! It seems that power-hungry right wingers have created so many disasters on so many fronts, that their defenders can only resort to attempts to reverse the blame.

I'm not gay, but I'm not going to stop defending gays just because there are bullies like you who are well aware that it is impossible to oppress minorities of whatever description if outsiders are willing to speak on their behalf. If the majority stand by and say or do nothing, then the bullies feel free to intimidate their targets. Racists have to look over their shoulder in most places before telling racist jokes, since they never know if they will be called out unless they are among like-minded friends -- and the same thing will happen on this issue as well, since younger people have a more rational understanding of the determinants of sexual orientation than their elders do.

Now, as for this George Rekers character -- so far, considering that this guy is a co-founder of Family Research Council, on the board of directors of NARTH, and a pivotal "intellectual" of the so-called gay reparative therapy movement, the lack of MSM coverage of Reker's scandal looks like evidence that media is mostly conservative, not liberal...of course that liberal media claim is just another example of rich conservatives playing the victim, as if their money doesn't buy them all of the press that they want.

Regardless, today it appears that conservative Christian leaders are showing the same love and forgiveness that they did for Ted Haggard: FRC has already tossed him overboard and erased his reference on the Family Research Council website, and Tony Perkins issued a press statement that he had no contact with George Rekers during the last ten years. Meanwhile, over at NARTH, they've issued this statement: "We are always saddened when this type of controversy impacts the lives of individuals, and we urge all parties to allow a respectful and thorough investigation to take place." Which likely translates into the same strategy that the evangelical leaders did with Ted Haggard -- wait till the hanging before throwing him under the bus.

Nancy Pelosi's daughter made a short documentary on Ted Haggard that was on HBO awhile back, that was supposed to be about the then leader of the National Association of Evangelicals; but ended up showing Haggard as a tragic character, as a scandal that revealed him to be a gay meth-head left him abandoned by his church, fellow preachers, and almost bankrupt with only the support of his immediate family as he tries to figure out how a man who has spent his life in front of the pulpit can carry on and earn a living. The real tragedy was that Haggard appeared to be still living in denial, hoping to be cured of his homosexual tendencies that he claimed were caused by sin. It just doesn't sink in that when most of us commit sexual sins, it is not going to be with guys!

But when sleuthing reporters and bloggers went sifting through the record of Haggard's sermons, lectures and public statements, they found surprisingly few references to homosexuality. Sure, he parroted the party line, but it was not his mission as it was for George Rekers. And that's why Rekers is going to be an object of scorn from all sides. Whether or not he was still trying to cure his own homosexuality by going to the extreme as anti-gay, he has done an incalculable amount of damage to gay youth who grow up in fundamentalist Christianity. They are told from the time they have their first sexual urges that their feelings are abhorrent, and if they are discovered by family to be gay, they may have the crap beat out of them, or if they have enlightened parents, sent to one of those reparative therapy sessions to fix them.

So there's your vehemence! A superstitious tradition at war with modern science, insists on carrying on with their theories and bogus cures that can't work, and just leave a victim feeling shame, anguish, and often living in denial, even when they are heading into their senior years like George Rekers.

[Oleg Bach]

Oleg is speaking from his personal experience not any type of "conditioning". He is a personality...your views are not from experience just an expression of what's going around. You yourself admit it wasn't once ever discussed so what kind of experience do you have? You knew a guy once who was gay? You see them around and think they are ok?

I am not suggesting Oleg is gay. Because of his participation in the arts, which is an attraction to homosexuality, he has thus had ample opportunity to rub shoulders with them. His experiences have been negative. So although anecdotal, I doubt you will find any truth in the politically correct perspective - it is after all politically correct, and a socially conditioned perspective.

As a post script. This thread is just an example of how deceitful homosexuals are, not how deceitful right wing anti gay leaders are. Although, vehemence may be an indication of a closet homosexual.

"Methinks though dost protest too much!" comes to mind when I see things like this.

Not all my experience around homo-sexuals have been negative...but for the most part being an old school ancient conservative Christain, I look at thing logically and in a very pragmatic way. Honour,dignity and freedom are paramount in my world...it is not just the gay community that I see in decay and debasement, but society in general...some of the kids that I grew up with ended up in the gay realm..I watched it develope..young boys who had crushes on girls as they aged took on the life style...It was usually some sort of early sexual interference that lead them down this path...not saying there is not a natural genetic predisposition...with some,,, but for the most part I do beleive that the power of sexuality can be altered to what I beleive is a negative out come ...

Having said that I was having coffee with my X..wife..she is about 10 years younger than I..all the woman in her family have a masculine edge..at present she has gained weight and taken on a small dog as a companion...she also recently shaved her head and hangs out with a very stupid white trash lesbian... a mentally defective creature...point is that I really am not attracted to her and have stopped having sex with her,,,She blurted out that I was a closet case...I retored and told her to F off and not insult me...again the point is I did not have the heart to tell her that she is frinking ugly..She did say today that I was free to have sex with other woman..................WELL FINALLY I MIGHT JUST DO WHAT I TRUEY DESIRE AND NOT TAKE UP WITH ANOTHER PEASANT BUTCH CHICK THAT WAS NOTHING BUT A BROOD MARE,,I like my women delicate and female...I adore a lady..some females are dickless men...Bitter? Yes...I raised my children and now I finally might just have a wife...a Lady.

[Oleg Bach]

In closing on this subject and I will use the mother of my four children as an example..she is Irish - British...and if she were a man she would sit in a pub and be called Mr. Finigan..the local con man and crook.. A contentious wife leads to failure..and if you are going to mate I suggest that you find a female that does not have a competative male living inside of her..find a Queen and you will be a successful king. Perhaps spirt that exists in humans does have a sex..in my experience there are females luking in male bodies and males sprits possessing female bodies...You must look closely at who you are dealing with..we in our past lives if that is the case have been both male and female..BUT if you are in a female body or a male body..play the role to the end...YOU will be more accomplished and more happy..If you stay and be what you are born...be a man..and be a woman...and don't alter the script..You are not God...and the writer of the play called Life..expects you to read the lines that ensure a happy out come.

[Pliny]

I deeply resent your bold insinuation here that I'm being deceptive...but let me clear up a pretty simple matter of logic (which you'd have already intuited if you had paid attention to the discussion in context):

You are only trying to make your point. Homosexuality is ok. I think that's your point. But I really think that you wish to prove how tolerant and liberal you are. Other wise you would be down with homosexuality yourself. Just doing it. Nothing wrong with that. Just try it. You might like it.What's wrong with making someone happy today?

I for one like to see homosexuals come out of the closet. Especially if they are right wing christian evangelists or gay Catholic priests.

Like you, I wouldn't trust any of those right wing homosexuals. The ones that pretend they aren't, and hide in what is supposed to be goodness and light. As a matter of fact other wolves have been known to hide in those same sheep's clothing and lord it over on people.

Oleg made a direct comment about indoctrination through formal education.

I am 43 years old. So when I was in school, we didn't discuss it. And there was a tacit understanding that it was a bad thing.

You find this hard to believe? I didn't think so. (In fact, I think you're just being argumentative, but only the Lord Godzilla on His throne knows why.)

I didn't really have a hard time believing that. I thought that was your total experience with it. Then you came out with further information. To me it was like oneupmanship. "I had to walk to school uphill both ways, so there." Kind of thing.

You said that.

You even concede this point later...that the prejudices and hatreds against gay people used to be much more pronounced. Well, it was much more pronounced 25 years ago, when I was in school. Do you doubt this? (No...you don't.) Why you don't believe me...I dunno. You have trouble believing that I didn't hear much about homosexuality in an educational context in the '70s and '80s; but Oleg's rampant stories about homosexuals treating everybody badly...well, you have no reason to doubt that. That's merely "his experience." [

Whereas MY experience--that homosexuals are normal people just like everybody else--why, that's just too wild to think on. So I must be making it up.

First of all, I personally don't agree that anti-gay right wing Christian leaders are closeted homosexuals; not in any number incommensurate with closted homosexuals generally. So, that isn't my view. Hopefully that's now clear.

Second, you seem to be suggesting that this says something bad about homosexuals (ie they're innately deceptive, or some such preposterous claim), rather than those who are afraid (because of stigma and religion) to out themselves.

Do you think there's something innately sinister about homosexuals...that they have some sort of inherent character flaw?

If so, you're ignorant. If not, excellent.

What I think is that men as sexual individuals are predatory. Homosexual men are not different but many of the people they prey on are unsuspecting. A woman knows a man wants her. A guy never suspects it and can be quite surprised and shocked when some other guy makes advances on him.

If a person simply "doesn't trust homosexuals," that person is an ignorant bigot.

Of course that's his right. But there IS NO right NOT to be called out on one's bigotry.

Trust is earned. I don't just blindly trust everyone. Everyone has to earn my trust. A homosexual could earn my trust, perhaps more easily than some heterosexuals, but overall it is very difficult to do so. I have to know the core person.

[Borg]

I am not suggesting Oleg is gay.

Why not? Maybe he is.

Borg

[Borg]

Why are most Muslims terrorists?

Because even if not actively terrorizing, they support it - sometimes quietly and sometimes openly.

Borg