Intergenerational Equity

[takeanumber]

How many baby boomers does it take to replace a lightbulb?

Two.

One to tell the Echo-ist to run to the store and charge the new lightbulb to his/her credit card, and another one to hog all the light after the Echo-ist is done screwing it in.

As somebody born around 1980, I can say that I'm one of the very few who is mad as hell about how much I'm getting PWNED by the Baby Boomers.

First--Education. Grade 5, I got my education hacked back. Then again in Grade 8. Then again in Grade 12.

University? I'm way in debt, even after working a job, and worse, I get stuck in classes with excess of a hundred people STILL.

So, we finally get into a surplus situation, and instead of paying down some of that debt so I wouldn't have to shoulder THAT AND all the healthcare...what happens to it?

Martin gives it out in business and income tax cuts just as the boomers are hitting greatest tax paying age of their lives.

Here's a neat fact, as somebody born around 1980, I will only get 60 cents back for every 1 dollar in taxes I pay for the rest of my life. And the boomers? 1.25

(Source: Macroeconomics, 5th ed.)

So, is this fair?

Was it right for the boomers to get tax cuts in 2000 by Martin?

Is it right for the Conservatives to promise tax cuts in 2005?

Seriously, I challenge a boomer to tell me that it's just, given the challenges ahead.

[August1991]

You were born into a world with, for example, penicillin, heart bypass surgery, DVD, air travel, airbags, air-conditioning, long distance communication. You personally did absolutely nothing to have these inventions. In effect, you are a thief of the past.

True, those older were also thieves - but they got less. And those in the future, your children's children, will be able to steal more.

Have you considered these transfers in your calculation? They swamp, I would imagine, any transfers the government might cause.

Here's a neat fact, as somebody born around 1980, I will only get 60 cents back for every 1 dollar in taxes I pay for the rest of my life. And the boomers? 1.25

I don't understand this. If parents so decide in a will, they leave their assets to their children. Or do you mean the government takes from the rich and gives to the poor? I'm confused.

[maplesyrup]

IE.....I agree with you.

Getting the youth vote

[takeanumber]

You were born into a world with, for example, penicillin, heart bypass surgery, DVD, air travel, airbags, air-conditioning, long distance communication. You personally did absolutely nothing to have these inventions. In effect, you are a thief of the past.

True, those older were also thieves - but they got less. And those in the future, your children's children, will be able to steal more.

Do you really believe what you just wrote?

The Babyboomers did not invent: Penicillin, most of the technology for DVD's, air travel, or long distance transportation.

Did you, as a Canadian, invent the DVD, air travel, or LD transport?

Then don't take credit for other people's work.

Have you considered these transfers in your calculation? They swamp, I would imagine, any transfers the government might cause.

No, they don't.

Here's a neat fact, as somebody born around 1980, I will only get 60 cents back for every 1 dollar in taxes I pay for the rest of my life. And the boomers? 1.25

I don't understand this. If parents so decide in a will, they leave their assets to their children. Or do you mean the government takes from the rich and gives to the poor? I'm confused.

Alright, here's how it works. We calculate out all the taxes that baby boomers pay, and all the benefits that they receive.

Now if the boomers receive more than they pay, that means they've incurred debt.

Who do you think ultimately pays that debt?

Future generations, of course.

Now, there are some things that other generations do that other generations benefit for. For instance, the hydro-electric damn of Quebec, and major transportation infrastructure. These are also paid for through bonds, which is a way of obtaining inter-generational equity.

YET: it is unjust to force other generations to pay for DAILY OPERATIONS which future generations, by no stretch of the imagination, will ever benefit from.

For instance, how did the spending orgy of 1972 benefit any of the Echoists? Very little of actual value was actually built during the 1970's.

So, again, I ask you, is it fair for the boomers to force future generations to pay for their good time?

Is it right for boomers to get tax breaks, to furthur screw the future generations out of their quality of life?

[August1991]

Did you, as a Canadian, invent the DVD, air travel, or LD transport? Then don't take credit for other people's work.

I'm not taking credit for it at all. I'm perfectly aware I received these things from previous generations at no cost to me. Are you prepared to make the same assertion?

A more interesting question would be to ask how much you would be prepared to pay for these things?

Alright, here's how it works. We calculate out all the taxes that baby boomers pay, and all the benefits that they receive.

Now if the boomers receive more than they pay, that means they've incurred debt.

Who do you think ultimately pays that debt?

Future generations, of course.

Wait a second here. How can I force the future to lend me something? How can I force them to have a debt? (Why can't the future refuse to pay it?)

The future will receive all the various things the present will leave it. You'd have to provide me evidence that the boomers are leaving less than they received.

And frankly, I think that's impossible. The greatest asset given to the future is human capital. To the extent boomers increase and transmit knowledge, then human capital will be preserved and enhanced.

A small example. Germany was utterly devastated in the Second World War. Yet within a few years, it had rebuilt much of the destruction. The main reason was that Germany's human capital was largely intact.

Look, you apparently are not happy with your situation or prospects and you seem to want to blame the boomers. Finding a scapegoat is hardly an original approach.

[willy]

takeanumber, you don't represent the youth vote but only a confused and bitter young person.

The youth vote hasn't paid taxes yet, or bought a home, or had kids. When that happens, tax cuts, jobs and healthcare become important.

Liberals and Conservatives have built with the support of most Canadians a brilliant country. We have freedom of expression and a justice system that allows us to keep what we work for.

We have challenges, and no matter how good are politicians are we always will have challenges.

I want the Liberals out of government, because they lost their way.

I know the Conservatives will be good stewards and meet the challenges and trade-offs head on.

Now when I told you to grow up on another thread, I guess you really need to do that.

Go and travel, Europe, Africa, Asia. Then you might appreciate how truly lucky we are.

As for education, you got one and you should pay for it. It is an investment and as with any investments their are risks. The risk here is you might not have learned anything. Most people by the time they get out of university don't think they know everything but finally realize they know very little.

[takeanumber]

Wait a second here. How can I force the future to lend me something? How can I force them to have a debt? (Why can't the future refuse to pay it?)

I'm just going to ignore you from now on. It's clear to me that you don't have the skills to understand something as simple as inter-generational debt, ie. How debt is transfered from one generation to another. I'm done with you.

Cheers.

(To answer your question, the national debt is serviced with interest payments. Those service charges are paid through the tax base (paid out to the boomers who loaned the money). When the next generation grows up, they pay some of the principle on that national debt, thus, transfering debt from one generation to another. A similar process occurs with corporate bonds, only that those servicing costs are paid through higher prices.)

takeanumber, you don't represent the youth vote but only a confused and bitter young person.

If more members of my generation understood how they were getting pwned, they'd be as mad as me.

And I think it's a natural response for somebody of your age to dismiss me as 'confused' when you know I'm bang on the money.

Nice try though.

The youth vote hasn't paid taxes yet, or bought a home, or had kids. When that happens, tax cuts, jobs and healthcare become important.

I'll have to pay your ass through healthcare AND your CPP AND your subsidized bus pass AND your subsidized property tax.

These issues ARE important ALREADY. Don't dismiss my concerns as being baseless because I havn't paid taxes yet.

Liberals and Conservatives have built with the support of most Canadians a brilliant country. We have freedom of expression and a justice system that allows us to keep what we work for.

Hooray. I want to keep it that way too.

I'm afraid you don't know the same elites I know out of Calgary. These new Conservatives arn't like you and me. They have a different concept of 'justice'.

We have challenges, and no matter how good are politicians are we always will have challenges.

The Echos have greater challenges then the Boomers ever will. Unlike Vietnam, the Echoists can't flake out and hide from the real war on Terrorism. (Remember the one raging outside Iraq?). This war is as big as WWII.

I want the Liberals out of government, because they lost their way.

I cut my card long before it was fashionable to do so because I couldn't stomach the corruption. (Back in 2000-2001).

I know the Conservatives will be good stewards and meet the challenges and trade-offs head on.

Good stewarts for YOUR generation because he wants to give you yet another break on your taxes.

The years 2005-2012 are CRITICAL because your generation is in the prime earning age, and we NEED to get that national debt down to 15-20% of GDP and we NEED to get our infrastructure up to par BEFORE you guys hit 65. GUTTING THE TAX BASE is NOT THE WAY TO GO at this juncture.

Now when I told you to grow up on another thread, I guess you really need to do that.

That's rich. Considering I know more about public policy than most of 55yo on this board. Classssic. Got any other pointers?

Go and travel, Europe, Africa, Asia. Then you might appreciate how truly lucky we are.

Listen, I grew up in a military family. My father went to Haiti the 'first' time, Somalia, Bosnia and the First Gulf War.

How dare you imply that I don't know what it's like other countries. Jesus, it must take some balls to be so partonizing.

Maybe YOU ought to go check out how bad things are in Haiti before lecturing me on visiting Europe, Africa and Asia, eh?

As for education, you got one and you should pay for it.

You paid 650 bux.

I paid 5500.

Index for inflation.

I paid WAY more than you did.

Why should different rules apply to me? Do you get some kind of special birthright because you were born before 1965?

It is an investment and as with any investments their are risks. The risk here is you might not have learned anything. Most people by the time they get out of university don't think they know everything but finally realize they know very little.

I sure as hell learnt a lot more than August.

So, are tax cuts in the best interest of future generations with so many boomers set to retire in 2012?

I think not.

But do your best to justify the pillaging of the Echoists, and why Boomers deserve to live high on the hog at our expense.

[Alliance Fanatic]

I think that you have to have alot of respect for those 55+. The reason why is simple they lived through hardship, and have fought to keep traditional institutions. I kind of feel bad that youth such as Takeanumber are adopting the country that many died fighting for, because Takeanumber basically said that the generation that suffered through World War 2, and the Korean War, are no better than the nazi's for not believing in socially liberal values.

That was from another thread were takeanumber said that those that disagree with him are responsible for putting jews and gays in ovens.

[August1991]

(To answer your question, the national debt is serviced with interest payments. Those service charges are paid through the tax base (paid out to the boomers who loaned the money). When the next generation grows up, they pay some of the principle on that national debt, thus, transfering debt from one generation to another. A similar process occurs with corporate bonds, only that those servicing costs are paid through higher prices.)

Everything you are referring to here is financial paper. These are obligations traded between individuals alive today. I am more concerned about the physical assets upon which this financial paper lays claim.

I don't dispute that the paper claims in a generational cohort might change hands; which seems to be your problem. You are angry that your boomer parents have left you little paper while other offspring get alot of paper. Dems de breaks.

But overall, there's more available. So don't blame the generation; blame your parents. And you know what? Don't do that. I'm sure they love you and if they don't, you're going to be a hell of alot richer than them. And you'll live longer.

If you won't read me, try this (written by an economist): Tax the Knickers off your grandchildren

[willy]

If more members of my generation understood how they were getting pwned, they'd be as mad as me.

And I think it's a natural response for somebody of your age to dismiss me as 'confused' when you know I'm bang on the money.

Nice try though.

The youth vote hasn't paid taxes yet, or bought a home, or had kids. When that happens, tax cuts, jobs and healthcare become important.

I'll have to pay your ass through healthcare AND your CPP AND your subsidized bus pass AND your subsidized property tax.

These issues ARE important ALREADY. Don't dismiss my concerns as being baseless because I havn't paid taxes yet.

Hey Genius, I am 28.

Good luck with the world is out to get young people thing. If you read history as much as post modern conspiracy theory, you will find out that insight into human behaviour and politics has not evolved. We have always had corruption and unfortunately we always will.

Diligence is always needed and it has nothing to do with ideology. The Conservatives, Liberals and NDP have to deal with the same challenge. When we are talking about power, it attacks all types.

As for you my peer, a little less vilification and a little more debate on policy and direction might bring you a more moderate point of view.

Incremental change to address the issues of the day is the best we can do. Revolution has never worked out well.

[takeanumber]

don't dispute that the paper claims in a generational cohort might change hands; which seems to be your problem. You are angry that your boomer parents have left you little paper while other offspring get alot of paper. Dems de breaks.

But overall, there's more available. So don't blame the generation; blame your parents. And you know what? Don't do that. I'm sure they love you and if they don't, you're going to be a hell of alot richer than them. And you'll live longer

It's not just paper. It's foregone consumption.

My parents are not boomers. They're both Busters. Again, nice assumption.

Dems de breaks.

Eh?

With an attitude like that, you understand my rage.

You just keep on ringing up those charges on the credit card, while driving down the minimum payments.

And here I thought you were a fiscal conservative!

I guess, if you're a capital C Conservative over 45, that actually means that you're a capital L Liberal -- so in effect, just as selfish and corrupt as a Gagliano.

Be sure to wrap yourself in the Canadian flag on the way out.

Regards,

Takeanumber.

(BTW, the 60 cent calculation includes ALL inheritances and accounts for PV; don't feel smug. You guys are ripping us off, and if you're feeling aweful, don't blame me. Blame yourself. It's your behaviour and voting pattern that causes it.)

[August1991]

Dems de breaks.

Eh?

With an attitude like that, you understand my rage.

WTF? Life is unfair? Your rage? You could have been born in Bangladesh. You could have been born ugly. You could be one of those people who doesn't know eye contact.

Gimme a break. Life is not about fairness. It's about doing the best with what you got.

Look, I read your posts and think about them. What you write is not nonsense. I just disagree.

[takeanumber]

WTF? Life is unfair? Your rage? You could have been born in Bangladesh. You could have been born ugly. You could be one of those people who doesn't know eye contact.

Well, luckily I was born with a dazzling pair of the most blue eyes a guy could ask for, with a chizzled jaw and an ass that won't quit. So I'm fine in that department.

Gimme a break. Life is not about fairness. It's about doing the best with what you got.

No arguement there. But the title of the thread is 'Intergenerational Equity'. What I'm not understanding is why life should be made intentionally more fair for you at my expense.

Life isn't fair. I'm saddled with a war on terror. Most Canadian boomers got off easy. (No vietnam, and lets face it, it was mostly Busters who fought in the first Iraq war.)

That's fine.

But this is a factor you boomers CAN control, and yet you're intentionally doing it, and what's worse, you know that you're doing it.

Look, I read your posts and think about them. What you write is not nonsense. I just disagree

Alright.

That's your right to disagree.

And I'm glad you actually read my point of view. That's more than some posters have been doing.

Regards,

Takeanumber.

[Slavik44]

honestly post secodnary education can be affordable if you are realistic and down to earth. So many people want to go to UBC, after all it has that whole name recognition, and air of superiority to it. as for myself blah..i can't afford it and i realize that..so why go there are plently of colleges out there that offer the same programs, smaller class sizes, and it costs so much less. take the tuition for any major university for a year and you could probabley get almost three years of worth of credits at a comunity college, with as i said smaller classes. But yet people complain about the cost of tuition for these big universities, a recent study say's most BA grads end up $20,000 in debt, I am shocked at this one, as heck $20,000 could get me a bachelors degree. Hoenstly i see so many peopel willign to complain about how much money they pay but never willing to actually be smart and pay less...quick to complain but never compromise...it really just shoudln't work that way. Somewhere along the line, someone needs to accept a little personal responsibility for their decisions and the factors that come with them, if it means going to a top of the line uni accept the factors that come with it, your goign to pay alot and your going to be in large classes...but it is not the only option...there are other options involved.

[takeanumber]

Somewhere along the line, someone needs to accept a little personal responsibility for their decisions and the factors that come with them, if it means going to a top of the line uni accept the factors that come with it, your goign to pay alot and your going to be in large classes...but it is not the only option...there are other options involved.

MRC credits are just expensive as U of C credits.

I didn't go to a university which huge name recognition. My university is ranked 12th or 14th.

I've long accepted the fact that I was gonna get royally screwed. I'm from a low income family (the military), so I had to go deep into debt.

That's the cost of social mobility.

I just don't see why the cost of social mobility for me has to be so much higher than it was for somebody just like me, growing up the 1960's.

Is there something special about the "me generation" that they get everything cheaper?

[willy]

Takeanumber,

So this is the education you receive at the UofC. Glad not to be a Dino.

Who told you it was your right to receive the benefits a province like Alberta provides. At UofC you have access to amazing sports facilities, state of the art technology, and a wide variety of programs.

You also have access to one of the best business communities in NA, and yet you think you are hard done by.

Try graduating in the Atlantic Provinces with 15% unemployment. The world is your oyster and you see nothing but #$%#.

I hope every day that the NDP doesn't come to power in BC so I don't have to move to find work, but you live in an area with vast opportunity and you smite it.

Hey mister I know better than the older generation. Wisdom comes with experience you should read some of the other posts more carefully. You might notice some wisdom.

By the way you should thank Klien for eliminating your debt and restructuring you healthcare system to the primary care model (being implemented now with universal health records). Alberta is in a wonderful position going into the future and the rest of us can only wish we were too.

[CanadaRocks]

This thread seems to be a discussion of who should shoulder the costs of society, and yet does it really matter so long as the ones who pay can yet have a reasonably good style of living? (which of course at present is definitely not the case)

"Boomers" do deserve a break, for many reasons. Fact is we could all use a break and again, for good reason. Why should one generation or group live in poverty while another lives in luxury? Is there not a way that we can all bonus? What if instead of money being created as debt, it could be created as profit?

If money were created as profit, (and yes I'm no economist so feel free to educate me until I understand) then we could ensure that every Canadian child didn't leave school until they had a trade of some sort via grants to cover most college/university, or encouraging a means to better living for our aging population, especially some of them ..ever seen some of the "homes for the aged" across our country?

Some of them are very, very nice, as the one my grandmother was in. Attentive, compassionate professionals ensuring medication, comfort, company ..and in pleasing surroundings. Other homes I've seen are rather the opposite, dispassionate "I'm here for the check so don't make it any tougher than its got to be" kind of places. There are a lot of things we could do to make life better, for all of us, if our government had enough money to help us create a Canada where EVERYBODY wins, to varying degree's acording to ability of course, but no body loses is a good place to start.

Lately I am troubled by a monetary policy I've read that is put out by the Canadian Action Party. If I understand correctly how implementation of that policy would affect Canada and Canadians, then we could use the money created as profit to build a Canada that ensured a good style of living for all Canadians wihout incurring the immense debt that creating money as debt currently does.

Return the power of creation of money from the privately owned banks to the Bank of Canada the original soverign creater of money. If this could make us all winners, why don't we say who cares what party has it, lets get that idea implemented!

Here's a link to the idea I'm talking about. Is there some overwhelming consideration not evident? Why can't this make all of us live and not just survive? Tax us sure, but make sure we can well afford them!

..or if this idea won't work? Why won't it work? Specifically please.

[takeanumber]

Takeanumber,

So this is the education you receive at the UofC. Glad not to be a Dino.

I'm not a Dino either.

Who told you it was your right to receive the benefits a province like Alberta provides.

It's called citizenship. Perhaps you're familiar with the concept? (Although I know your generation has the habit of denying citizenship to any minority you see fit.)

At UofC you have access to amazing sports facilities, state of the art technology, and a wide variety of programs.

Yes, all of this in spite of the cut backs. Certainly, not thanks to, the cut backs.

You also have access to one of the best business communities in NA, and yet you think you are hard done by.

I wouldn't say that. Check out the Atco 'centre of excellence' business school and compare it to the Molson Business School. The business community here is chincy, and not particularly good citizens when compared to other major centres.

Try graduating in the Atlantic Provinces with 15% unemployment.

Bingo. Had to leave the Atlantic Provinces because of the unemployment rate. Again, 'go where the jobs are'.

The world is your oyster and you see nothing but #$%#.

I'm a member of entrepreunerial 'class' of my generation. The only sh1t I see is comming from your mouth in trying to justify your pillaging of another generation.

And it's funny that you still can't come up with a good justification, so you just go on these little rant-attacks.

I hope every day that the NDP doesn't come to power in BC so I don't have to move to find work, but you live in an area with vast opportunity and you smite it.

I'd argue that Klein is just as inept as the NDP in running the province's finances. I mean, the only reason why Alberta isn't in the same boat as BC is because of the oil. Klein just can't contain the pork, always handing out the goodies like paying for RCMP services for some towns etc..

So, don't pat yourself on the back. You've done a terrible job as generation in that you have very few achievements to point to as a legacy.

Hey mister I know better than the older generation. Wisdom comes with experience you should read some of the other posts more carefully. You might notice some wisdom.

I've already PROVEN that I'm wiser than you. Take a while to appreciate that point.

By the way you should thank Klien for eliminating your debt

It should have been eliminated 3 years ago. It could have been paid off this year. You know why it wasn't? So he could take credit for it during an election year, costing the Alberta tax payer 300 million dollars. Think about that.

and restructuring you healthcare system to the primary care model (being implemented now with universal health records).

Thx mr. Klein for blowing up hospitals and schools. Happy?

Alberta is in a wonderful position going into the future and the rest of us can only wish we were too.

Alberta is in a dangerous positiong going into the future. Oil don't last forever, and the economy isn't diversifying fast enough. Moreover, there are other extremely serious issues facing Alberta that you don't want to hear about.

No arguement there. But the title of the thread is 'Intergenerational Equity'. What I'm not understanding is why life should be made intentionally more fair for you at my expense.

Life isn't fair. I'm saddled with a war on terror. Most Canadian boomers got off easy. (No vietnam, and lets face it, it was mostly Busters who fought in the first Iraq war.)

That's fine.

But this is a factor you boomers CAN control, and yet you're intentionally doing it, and what's worse, you know that you're doing it.

[Sully]

It's called citizenship. Perhaps you're familiar with the concept? (Although I know your generation has the habit of denying citizenship to any minority you see fit.)

You are right, those rights of citizenship are granted to you solely on the fact that you were born in Canada by your parents, whom I am to assume are Canadians. So your parents, my parents and former generations have all contributed to making this society what it is and have created a society that can afford to give you all those rights bestowed upon you at birth. You, at the point of your birth, right up to this stage you are at right now, have done nothing significant to build this society, yet you can enjoy the benefits. I mean I do not believe there is anything visible in this society that you have contributed, so for the past 20 or so years you have had pretty much a free ride on the shoulders of previous generations.

As for saying that "your generation" somehow is able to deny minorities citizenship, hahahahaha, you are joking right. I would say that the generation in question has been horrible on that issue. They let it too many unqualified immigrants into Canada. We have refugees that claim refugee status without proof of persecution (hmmm they use Canada as a backdoor to the US), we have families here collecting welfare cheques and sending that money back home to fund terrorist operations, we have a family like the Khadrs who can take advantage of our health care system, yet criticize Canada as being a horrible country, I see many families being established here, then low and behold they bring the rest of their family over (which these members happen to be in the later years of their lives) who do not work, yet they will cost us in health care bills. The list goes on and on and no I do not have a problem with making sure the people moving to this country must be beneficial to Canada, before they are allowed citizenship. So accusing this generation of denying minorities their citizenship is stupid, this is the generation of established politicians who like minority votes (i.e. lets ship them in and buy their vote), this is the generation of lawyers who make their money fighting cases like this. Crap you should be defending this generation after all they are responsible for the political correctness that is so rampant these days.

I'd argue that Klein is just as inept as the NDP in running the province's finances. I mean, the only reason why Alberta isn't in the same boat as BC is because of the oil. Klein just can't contain the pork, always handing out the goodies like paying for RCMP services for some towns etc..

So, don't pat yourself on the back. You've done a terrible job as generation in that you have very few achievements to point to as a legacy.

I totally agree with Willy its scary thinking that the NDP could come to power. Well all I can say is that Alberta is the richest province under a Klein govt. and under the NDP, BC became a have not province, sad that BC can qualify for equalization payments with the resources that we have. I guess when you are hostile towards business and promote a bloated public service and government, thats the result. But hey no govt. can please everyone.

So a question to you takeanumber is when will we see you running for office. I mean you seem to be able to address problems, tell us how you would fix them.

I just graduated from university, I was born around the year 1978, I have not had things easy, but pissing and moaning about everything is exactly what is wrong with society today, lets hear your solutions. I am thankful for all the things I have, I do not see why you are so angry.

Lastly, when you have a job interview from someone in this generation you love so much, let him know how you feel about him or her, we will see if you can get your job. I hope you believe in honesty.

[takeanumber]

@Sully. Congrats for graduating.

You are right, those rights of citizenship are granted to you solely on the fact that you were born in Canada by your parents, whom I am to assume are Canadians. So your parents, my parents and former generations have all contributed to making this society what it is and have created a society that can afford to give you all those rights bestowed upon you at birth.

Alright, let's compare the contribution that somebody born in 1920 made to somebody born in 1950, and then we'll compare what that 1950'ite handed down to somebody born in 1980.

Sounds fair?

Alright, somebody born in 1920 spent their childhood during the roaring 20's, and then spent their early adulthood during the great depression. They went off to fight world war 2, and defeated the Nazi's. The returned home, breeded, and then built dams, massive amounts of infrastructure and so on, all while reducing the debt from 140% of GDP to 50% of GDP in just twenty years.

The Boomers inherited a country that was fiscally sound (low debt/GDP ratio), a terrific education (that was cheap too!) and tons of new infrastructure. They also inherited some debt, but not too much because of their parents efforts.

Now, what did the Echo-ists inherit?

Let's see: an 80% debt/GDP ratio (when you take into account provincial and municipal debt), no new infrastructure really to speak of (No new dams, overcrowded schools, universities, highways, hospitals, old Nuclear plants). The Boomers, instead of making wise investment decisions with the debt, instead chose to live high on the hog, using money that the previous generation had used to build things, and instead used the money for day-to-day expenditure.

And when the interest rate - growth rate differential reversed in 1981?

Nope, you guys just kept right on spending.

The Echo-istes got screwed on their education by cutbacks just as it was their turn to be 'carried' during the first years of their lives. The Echo-istes got really screwed by University because suddenly - the rules were different for them.

And we still get saddled with your debt, for which, you really have little show for.

Does it feel good?

Now, we're in 2004. We're getting ready for you to start retiring, and what do you do? You want more tax cuts at a time when we're supposed to be saving and getting infrastructure ready for your transition into your senior years.

I know of several boomers who are quite aware of this inequity, and they don't want tax cuts. They don't want tax increases. They know what's comming up.

But, I know several boomers, mainly conservatives, who dare to say, "Suck it up, cupcake, because it's our right not to pay taxes, and you should be thankful for us, because of all the wonderful things we did, and even though we sold out, and, er...er...YA!"

Anyway, nobody here has said anything to justify Harper's or Martin's tax cuts on the basis of intergenerational equity.

If you're so 'wise', why do you avoid the question repeatedly?

As for saying that "your generation" somehow is able to deny minorities citizenship, hahahahaha, you are joking right.

Not my generation. Echo-istes havn't.

Need we revisit the aboriginal question?

Didn't think so.

to the US), we have families here collecting welfare cheques and sending that money back home to fund terrorist operations, we have a family like the Khadrs who can take advantage of our health care system, yet criticize Canada as being a horrible country, I see many families being established here, then low and behold they bring the rest of their family over (which these members happen to be in the later years of their lives) who do not work, yet they will cost us in health care bills. The list goes on and on and no I do not have a problem with making sure the people moving to this country must be beneficial to Canada, before they are allowed citizenship. So accusing this generation of denying minorities their citizenship is stupid, this is the generation of established politicians who like minority votes (i.e. lets ship them in and buy their vote), this is the generation of lawyers who make their money fighting cases like this. Crap you should be defending this generation after all they are responsible for the political correctness that is so rampant these days.

It's all immigrants and PC'ers that are causing the trouble.

I'm simply too tired right now to discuss how immigration relates to intergenerational equity, and I doubt that you'd even read it.

So I'm going to assume this was just a red herring to distract me from the real point of this thread: intergenerational equity.

So a question to you takeanumber is when will we see you running for office. I mean you seem to be able to address problems, tell us how you would fix them

First time anybody has ever asked.

If I type it out here, based on past threads, nobody will read it, and fewer will respond, instead choosing red herrings. If you're really interested, PM me.

There are about a dozen policy options that are quite attractive.

Lastly, when you have a job interview from someone in this generation you love so much, let him know how you feel about him or her, we will see if you can get your job. I hope you believe in honesty.

My boss is actually a boomer, and he knows all of this, lol. I explained all of these points during a workshop.

And he agrees on the fiscal side of the intergenerational equity aspect of the arguement. It's fiscally prudent to prepare for the big demographic shift that's about to happen.

I don't mind *most* boomers. Most boomers havn't sold out.

It's the small 'c' hypocrite types that are the funniest. Sadly, government and opposition are dominated by them.

I totally agree with Willy its scary thinking that the NDP could come to power. Well all I can say is that Alberta is the richest province under a Klein govt. and under the NDP, BC became a have not province, sad that BC can qualify for equalization payments with the resources that we have. I guess when you are hostile towards business and promote a bloated public service and government, thats the result. But hey no govt. can please everyone.

NDP incompetence is no excuse for Conservative incompetence.

They both suck.

[Sully]

I really do not see this as a big problem personally. This is a fight that feel you strongly for and thats super. I have no problem with an older generation looking out for their best interests. I am a young person and I will look out for my best interests. I have no problem with an older generation wanting to have taxes lowered. I am a young person and I want to do anything I can to lower my taxes. I just do not know why you think that your life is suppose to be somehow the same as a generation before or as easy as you seem to think it was.

I mean you can say all day long that people from different generations had an easier time of it. Right now thats irrelevant. Because crying about the good old days does nothing. We have a serious debt in this country and future generations will have to pay for it, c'est la vie. But get out and vote for a party that you think will address the problem you see. There are a lot of things that need to be reformed, but some are larger priorities than others and I do not see this as a priority. I am going to go out in the working world, work my hardest to get the best job I can, I am going to try find every legal way to pay as little tax as possible and I will vote for a party that best represents my interests.

We could complain til the cows came home about policies of previous governments, but the fact of the matter is policies do not always result in the intended consequences and not everything at the time of implementation can be foreseen.

Anyway, nobody here has said anything to justify Harper's or Martin's tax cuts on the basis of intergenerational equity.

If you're so 'wise', why do you avoid the question repeatedly?

You are the one who sees this problem with intergenerational equity, not everybody has the same motivation for this subject, some people like me see other issues as taking precedence over pointing fingers at previous generations.

It's all immigrants and PC'ers that are causing the trouble.

I'm simply too tired right now to discuss how immigration relates to intergenerational equity, and I doubt that you'd even read it.

So I'm going to assume this was just a red herring to distract me from the real point of this thread: intergenerational equity.

Well you brought up the point remember, that this generation arbitrarly denies minority rights, where as I believe that statement is false to say the least!!!!!

It's called citizenship. Perhaps you're familiar with the concept? (Although I know your generation has the habit of denying citizenship to any minority you see fit.)

Not my generation. Echo-istes havn't.

Need we revisit the aboriginal question?

Didn't think so.

Sure lets revisit it, just do it on another thread if you want to.

[August1991]

no new infrastructure really to speak of (No new dams, overcrowded schools, universities, highways, hospitals, old Nuclear plants).

TakeNumber, this is where you are fundamentally wrong and you just can't seem to get your head around it. Please try.

The world today has much more stuff (infrastructure, things and in particular ideas in the form of technology) than it did in 1980 and in 1950. Our total wealth, whether in the form of human capital or physical capital, is greater now. (One example - computers and the Internet.)

IOW, the Echo generation as a whole will have more assets than the boomer generation as a whole.

It appears however that other Echo individuals have more assets than you because their parents have left them more paper claims on those assets. You should not rant at boomers; you should rant at fellow Echo individuals for not sharing. From what I gather though, you seem to have a pretty good pile.

Although this is really crude, and misses the value of new technology, here are net fixed assets (in 1983 $) in the US:

1925 $1,574 billion

1950 $3,901 billion

1975 $10,376 billion

2000 $17,415 billion

BEA Current-Cost Net Fixed Assets (Note I used the CPI to deflate but I haven't done the per capita calculation.)

I'm sure Canadian stats are similar.

[idealisttotheend]

I think August is right on this one. We have simply upped our expectations so we don't notice how much better things are. We expect MRIs and broadband connections so we see ourselves as always needing more and we see ourselves as deprived if we don't have them.

Nonetheless we have not dealt with how our society is and ought to be changing to adapt to this new reality. We insist on appling old structures to new realities.

[Argus]

As somebody born around 1980, I can say that I'm one of the very few who is mad as hell about how much I'm getting PWNED by the Baby Boomers.

Well, at least your fulfilling the cliche of your generation being a bunch of bloody whiners.

What do you have to cope with? Gee, it costs too much to go to university. Your pension payments will be high. Whine, whine whine. Cry me a river, boy. Hey, George, the poor lad really has it hard, right?

George: Well, when I was his age my idiot elders screwed up the world so that I wound up crawling through the filthy mud in Flanders trying to keep my leg from rotting off. I failed, and couldn't get a job after I got home, and then the great depression hit. Gee, yeah, I feel sorry for him. How about you, Fred?"

Fred: "Uhm, yeah, he's hard done by all right. Your generation left some unfinished business, you know, and I had to spend what should have been the best 6 years of my life in a rotten uniform freezing my ass off in Europe. My brother had it better since he was in the Pacific, but he got caught by the Japs and wound up being beaten to death. But.. yeah, I guess I feel sorry for him. What about you, Ernie?

Ernie: "Well, I guess. I don't think too much about things these days, though. I mean, what with catching polio when I was nine and spending most of my youth in an artificial lung. They didn't have any cures for polio back then, y'know. But I don't feel too bad. After all, I don't have to pay a big college loan.

[Argus]

You were born into a world with, for example, penicillin, heart bypass surgery, DVD, air travel, airbags, air-conditioning, long distance communication. You personally did absolutely nothing to have these inventions. In effect, you are a thief of the past.

True, those older were also thieves - but they got less. And those in the future, your children's children, will be able to steal more.

Do you really believe what you just wrote?

The Babyboomers did not invent: Penicillin, most of the technology for DVD's, air travel, or long distance transportation.

What he's saying is you should stop whining and feeling sorry for yourself. The lifestyle of your generation - presuming you ever get off your asses and do anything, is going to be better than the one the boomers enjoyed. You're probably going to live longer, with fewer challenges or problems than the generations which came before you (which is good because you guys ain't up to many challenges). This whole whiz-bang high technology society being built up is going to be all at your disposal, which is a far cry from the 3 channel B&W television the boomers grew up with.

And you know all that debt accumulated was by people with your dumbass "noble" ideals about helping everyone regardless of cost or problems. The guy most responsible is Trudeau, and I have no doubt you would have gotten a big stiffy at the sight of him. He was your kind of guy. So if you'd been a member of the boomer generation you'd have voted for Trudeau and left all this debt to the next generation anyway. So quite bitching.