Religious tolerance

[Handsome Rob]

Couple of excerpts:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/04/16/bc-vaisakhi-parade-threats-dosanjh-hayer.html#socialcomments

B.C. Premier Gordon Campbell says he won't attend a Sikh parade in Surrey on Saturday unless there is a formal apology from organizers for a perceived threat against two other politicians.

An organizer of the annual Vaisakhi parade told a Punjabi radio station Thursday that Liberal MP Ujjal Dosanjh and B.C. Liberal MLA Dave Hayer were not invited to the event and were responsible for their own safety.

"They have never been invited," Inderjit Singh Bains said during an interview on Radio Sher-e Punjab "If they come, they need to bring their own security."

The parade has a history of controversy because of its support for Sikh militants in India. Both Dosanjh and Hayer are Indo-Canadians who have distanced themselves from the militant movement.

But in 2007 Liberal, Conservative and New Democrat politicians who attended the parade faced political embarrassment after a photo of alleged Air India bombing mastermind Talwinder Singh Parmar was displayed on a float.

At the time Dosanjh said police should investigate the incident. The following year Surrey officials sent letters to politicians warning them the parade would again include controversial images.

While Parmar's photo was not displayed on a parade float last year, organizers did set up a separate tent on the grounds of the Dasmesh Darbar temple for a controversial display that included photographs of the founders of the Babbar Khalsa and the International Sikh Youth Federation, groups Canada considers terrorist organizations.

Parade organizers have reportedly said that this year every float would include the flag of Khalistan and images of martyrs, said by their supporters to be heroes of the armed struggle by Sikh extremists to carve out an independent nation called Khalistan in the Indian state of Punjab.

I'm all for freedom of expression, so not going to say it should be shut down, or the more interesting CBC comments calling for the deportation of all participants. Also not particularly targeting the group, just one piece of local news that popped up.

That being said, I'm utterly flabbergasted by two things, if, CBC has their information correct:

1) The complete lack of a reaction from the politicians involved. Both Dosanjh & Hayer have histories of being victimized by this particular community.

2) Shouldn't such a group receive the same sort of public response that the white supremacists always receive. At the very least it implies the existence of some kind of a double standard.

Don't really have any sort of a position, just thought that it would make for an interesting discussion. Where does this path lead? Isn't what they've done technically against the law here?

[Bonam]

Saw this story in the Vancouver Sun earlier. At least Gordon Campbell had the balls to stand up to them.

[Handsome Rob]

Saw this story in the Vancouver Sun earlier. At least Gordon Campbell had the balls to stand up to them.

Sort of. I think Ignatieff has taken the biggest stand at this point.

The response from Dosanjh & Hayer just seems so minimal though.

[Shwa]

2) Shouldn't such a group receive the same sort of public response that the white supremacists always receive. At the very least it implies the existence of some kind of a double standard.

Hopefully their PR division will invite some high level Orangemen to their next parade and the LOL's will reciprocate.

[Pogo]

It is laughable that this sort of stuff is allowed to happen in this country.

[ToadBrother]

It is laughable that this sort of stuff is allowed to happen in this country.

And how exactly are you going to stop people from revering terrorists? This is a faction in the Sikh community, a very vocal one, but from what I can tell, a minority. But like all such groups, they tend to be a lot more motivated to play the political game than Joe Average. I think pressure from the Mayor of Surrey, from Federal and Provincial politicians will be enough to convince the organizers that continuing in the vein they've gone will alienate the politicians at every level of government.

[Oleg Bach]

Tolerate this - tolerate that - tolerate all sorts of shit...people should not be tolerant of things that inflict harm...I don't really want to be tolerant of some extremist Muslim - Christian or Jew that looks upon me as an inferior and quietly and privately think that I should not exist..WE are taught to tolerate every obscenity..yet we are not tolerated.

[Oleg Bach]

ALS0: Why do we have to tolerate Catholic clergy and their boss the Pope, who with teary eyes say they are sorry...they did not tolerate innocence and goodness? Why should I tolerate what is clearly lieing evil?

[Bonam]

Why should I tolerate what is clearly lieing evil?

You shouldn't. Evil must be opposed.

[Oleg Bach]

You shouldn't. Evil must be opposed.

Our young are conditioned to NOT discriminate between good and evil - between what harms them and what does not..This leaves them open for attack..and eventually a lower quality of life...the word tolerance and discrimination have lost their real meaning. I heard a young girl who was very liberally trained say "Hitler had the right to his own opinion and to further his dreams" Which we know was a nightmare. Evil and stupidy are very similar - and it seems as they say - "My people perish for lack of knowledge"....I worry a lot about our youth...who are taught not to tolerate wisdom the true inheritence.

[Bonam]

Our young are conditioned to NOT discriminate between good and evil - between what harms them and what does not..

While this may be true to some extent, it is ultimately a parent's responsibility to "condition" their young. If the education system sucks or teaches ideas someone does not like, they have the right and opportunity to teach their children differently.

[Oleg Bach]

While this may be true to some extent, it is ultimately a parent's responsibility to "condition" their young. If the education system sucks or teaches ideas someone does not like, they have the right and opportunity to teach their children differently.

Correct! My kids are adults...as with me there may have been rough spots in my up bringing - But the values of my parents were passed on to me - and I whether they know it or not have passed on the same ethics to my own off spring..I do see adult children raised by single feminist eccentric mothers..who think nothing of having a fund raiser for Haiti and then stealing the money...NOW - who and what created suck an ammoral jerk - the mother or the state - or both?

[Oleg Bach]

OH - A few years back my kids brought around one of their friends...A Muslim kid ...kind of an unsavory character from the projects..He was a fully flamed out gay - discussions we had showed me that he was taught by his parents NOT to tolerate Christians _ Jews or secularists ..The kid went so far as telling me that his father said that we should all be bred out of existence...ironic - I guess the whole gay thing was not explained to the Mullah father....Point being - for some reason people trust me and reveal things....so I wonder how many Muslims on Canadian soil that we tolerate - expect our demise to come sooner than later?

[bloodyminded]

..I do see adult children raised by single feminist eccentric mothers..who think nothing of having a fund raiser for Haiti and then stealing the money...NOW - who and what created suck an ammoral jerk - the mother or the state - or both?

This is a direct charge and a declarative statement, as distinct from what can be clearly recognized as opinion. So we have the right to ask if it is true; so you are obligated to provide some evidence.

[ToadBrother]

OH - A few years back my kids brought around one of their friends...A Muslim kid ...kind of an unsavory character from the projects..He was a fully flamed out gay - discussions we had showed me that he was taught by his parents NOT to tolerate Christians _ Jews or secularists ..The kid went so far as telling me that his father said that we should all be bred out of existence...ironic - I guess the whole gay thing was not explained to the Mullah father....Point being - for some reason people trust me and reveal things....so I wonder how many Muslims on Canadian soil that we tolerate - expect our demise to come sooner than later?

There's so much about this story that defies credibility, it's difficult to know where to start.

[bloodyminded]

There's so much about this story that defies credibility, it's difficult to know where to start.

The credible parts are the first sentence....then some small parts of speech: "went so far," "for some reason," and a few adverbs and articles. They seem believable enough.

Edited April 21, 2010 by bloodyminded

[MightyAC]

Tolerate this - tolerate that - tolerate all sorts of shit...people should not be tolerant of things that inflict harm...I don't really want to be tolerant of some extremist Muslim - Christian or Jew that looks upon me as an inferior and quietly and privately think that I should not exist..WE are taught to tolerate every obscenity..yet we are not tolerated.

I'm not just bothered by extremists I am also bothered by the lax or docile faithful that act as enablers.

[Michael Hardner]

I'm not just bothered by extremists I am also bothered by the lax or docile faithful that act as enablers.

However, I have yet to hear somebody explain what our obligations are to change the various groups to which we might belong to.

For example, are conservatives considered as 'enabling' militia groups more than liberals are ? I'd say not.

[MightyAC]

All conservatives are not members of militia groups. Militia groups also do not receive power and funding from conservatives as a whole, whereas religions do.

I think a more apt analogy would be a membership in the Ku Klux Klan or Hamas. Even if you just participate in the charity efforts and stayed away from the lynchings and rocket attacks you still lend some power and support to a group that does evil deeds.

[Michael Hardner]

All conservatives are not members of militia groups. Militia groups also do not receive power and funding from conservatives as a whole, whereas religions do.

Milita groups aren't funded by conservatives ?

I think a more apt analogy would be a membership in the Ku Klux Klan or Hamas. Even if you just participate in the charity efforts and stayed away from the lynchings and rocket attacks you still lend some power and support to a group that does evil deeds.

But an argument I have heard is that 'moderate Muslims dont' do enough'.

A criticism that says 'moderate Muslims support groups that give money to terror groups' is a little more specific, and easier to examine in detail.

[MightyAC]

SOME conservatives support militia groups, as do SOME liberals but not all of them. ALL church going religious folk lend power and support to their religions which makes them enablers.

A conservative that donated a riffle or helped organize a militia fundraiser would be an enabler, but someone that just believes in less government and less regulation would not necessarily be an enabler.

Similarly, KKK members are Christians that largely justify their hateful beliefs with scriptures, but not all Christians are KKK enablers.

Do you see the difference?

Edited July 8, 2010 by MightyAC

[eyeball]

Religious tolerance How far does it go?

Not very far usually, and for that reason I'm more concerned that tolerance for religion goes too far.

[Handsome Rob]

Not very far usually, and for that reason I'm more concerned that tolerance for religion goes too far.

You lost me. Is that a riddle?

[Bonam]

You lost me. Is that a riddle?

He means that religions are often not particularly tolerant of other groups, and that for this reason he is more concerned that our tolerance of religions (which themselves can be intolerant) goes too far.

In effect, tolerating fundamentalist religious beliefs in a society actually increases the overall level of intolerance in that society.

[Machjo]

Couple of excerpts:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/04/16/bc-vaisakhi-parade-threats-dosanjh-hayer.html#socialcomments

I'm all for freedom of expression, so not going to say it should be shut down, or the more interesting CBC comments calling for the deportation of all participants. Also not particularly targeting the group, just one piece of local news that popped up.

That being said, I'm utterly flabbergasted by two things, if, CBC has their information correct:

1) The complete lack of a reaction from the politicians involved. Both Dosanjh & Hayer have histories of being victimized by this particular community.

2) Shouldn't such a group receive the same sort of public response that the white supremacists always receive. At the very least it implies the existence of some kind of a double standard.

Don't really have any sort of a position, just thought that it would make for an interesting discussion. Where does this path lead? Isn't what they've done technically against the law here?

From my observations, people tend to be tougher on their own group than on others. It's kind of like a 'Only I can hit my siblings' mentality. I'd found that I was more outspoken about the KKK and such groups than my black friends and family members were, whereas they tended to focus less on any organization, but more on actual acts of racism against them. I'd found similar when I'd faced major harassment from the African American, Muslim, and Ethiopian communities. I found myself complainng more about the harassment itself and was less focused on any organizational affiliation of the perpetrators, whereas some of my friends and family members were much more outraged at the groups, mainly because they belonged to those groups themselves and so were more aware of how that reflects badly on them, just as the KKK reflects badly on us for example.

So looking at it that way, it's only natural that a Punjabi will feel more strongly about such terrorist groups than we will since those groups are an embarrassment for other Punjabis who have nothing to do with them, and so it's natural that those Punjabis will be more committed than the average Canadian in trying to put this terrorist group down, just as White Canadians are likely to feel much more strongly about putting an end to the KKK owing to how it risks reflecting badly on us.