Are men idiots?

[JerrySeinfeld]

I list for you just a few examples of the "men are immature dufuses who need to be corrected and taught by women" stereotype that pervades the media:

Tool Time (sitcom)

Everybody loves Raymond (sitcom)

Kellogs Fruit and nut cereal commercial

Danone Yogurt commercial

If the shoe was on the other foot, women's groups would be enraged.

[Sir Bandelot]

It's just a marketing ploy, for the target audience.

Everybody knows, real men don't eat Danone

[JerrySeinfeld]

It's just a marketing ploy, for the target audience.

Everybody knows, real men don't eat Danone

Haha. You could be right. But it seems to me there is a plethora of media messages portraying "man as dummy" out there. And even if it is simply a target market trick aimed at pleasing the female eye, is it not still unhealthy to support this kind of viewpoint about men?

Look at the flip side of that coin: I don't see many men's products that portray women as stupid.

For instance, if "Gillete Mach 3 Razors" started a campaign with the basic premise that women are dummies, I bet you'd be hearing from women's groups and the Jack Laytons of the world about it.

Just sayin' I see a double standard.

With the help of strong lobby groups, little girls are consistently exposed to messages of self esteem building and general encouragement in schools. Statistically girls are more called upon in class and more encouraged to "do well" in school, yet it is boys who suffer most when you look at educational statistics.

Example: Virtually every university in the continent as a "Department of Women's Studies".

Is there a comparible for men?

Point being - if we're all going to be concerned about "gender equity" - isn't it time we started paying attention to the neglected sex - ie, Males?

How healthy can it be for young males to grow up in a world where they're consistently told to shut up and that men are dummies?

Edited April 11, 2010 by JerrySeinfeld

[Bonam]

Haha. You could be right. But it seems to me there is a plethora of media messages portraying "man as dummy" out there. And even if it is simply a target market trick aimed at pleasing the female eye, is it not still unhealthy to support this kind of viewpoint about men?

Look at the flip side of that coin: I don't see many men's products that portray women as stupid.

For instance, if "Gillete Mach 3 Razors" started a campaign with the basic premise that women are dummies, I bet you'd be hearing from women's groups and the Jack Laytons of the world about it.

Just sayin' I see a double standard.

With the help of strong lobby groups, little girls are consistently exposed to messages of self esteem building and general encouragement in schools. Statistically girls are more called upon in class and more encouraged to "do well" in school, yet it is boys who suffer most when you look at educational statistics.

Example: Virtually every university in the continent as a "Department of Women's Studies".

Is there a comparible for men?

Point being - if we're all going to be concerned about "gender equity" - isn't it time we started paying attention to the neglected sex - ie, Males?

How healthy can it be for young males to grow up in a world where they're consistently told to shut up and that men are dummies?

The assumption in the Western world is that "men can take it". That is, white heterosexual men anyway. Everyone else is assumed to be "sensitive" or "disadvantaged" and incapable of taking a little humour or degradation. Don't know where this misguided view comes from but there it is.

[JerrySeinfeld]

The assumption in the Western world is that "men can take it". That is, white heterosexual men anyway. Everyone else is assumed to be "sensitive" or "disadvantaged" and incapable of taking a little humour or degradation. Don't know where this misguided view comes from but there it is.

Well, you are right about that. Interestingly it does any identity group no favours to have that attitude persist, however.

Edited April 11, 2010 by JerrySeinfeld

[Bonam]

Well, you are right about that. Interestingly it does any identity group no favours to have that attitude persist, however.

Of course not. The attitude and policies with it are destructive both to all groups and to society as a whole. Unfortunately, there seems no way to reverse or undo this trend, which is now deeply rooted not only in "liberals" and "leftists", who some might blame for its origin, but now pervades most of Western society as a whole.

If it were only a gender thing it wouldn't in the end be such a big deal. Whether men or women are discriminated against, they tend to group up into pairs, and most will work towards each others mutual interest. That is biologically inescapable (at least for now).

The more perilous implications of this ideology are in how it is applied to different racial/ethnic, religious, and cultural groups.

[Michael Hardner]

If you look at the OP, the sit-coms referred to haven't been on the air for years. The "men are idiots" thing is so old that it's not even done anymore. Was it insulting ? To my intelligence, yes.

Thankfully, people have found other things to make fun of and even the insipid have moved on.

Nobody with brains really thinks men are idiots. We survived that bit of backlash and are now happily moving on.

[Sir Bandelot]

Haha. You could be right. But it seems to me there is a plethora of media messages portraying "man as dummy" out there. And even if it is simply a target market trick aimed at pleasing the female eye, is it not still unhealthy to support this kind of viewpoint about men?

I think it's done for sales. We tolerate a lot of things in TV commercials.

The ploy is, portraying men as dummies. For women, the ploy is, portraying women are walking pieces of ass. That's what sells.

You won't hear much complaining from men about that!

[capricorn]

The "men are idiots" thing is so old that it's not even done anymore.

I watch a fair bit of French tv. A number of their commercials cast men as idiots and bumblers. Oddly enough, quite a few of those commercials feature hefty women. Go figure.

[bloodyminded]

Of course not. The attitude and policies with it are destructive both to all groups and to society as a whole. Unfortunately, there seems no way to reverse or undo this trend, which is now deeply rooted not only in "liberals" and "leftists", who some might blame for its origin, but now pervades most of Western society as a whole.

I disagree with this. The bumbling, childish husband contrasted with the more reasonable wife is nothing more than a sit-com convention--far pre-dating any "leftist" or feminist influence. It can clearly be traced back to "The Honeymooners" (and that show's cartoon doppleganger, "The Flintstones"). Many others followed. And these aren't any sort of liberal reaction to patriarchy. That's just absurd.

If anything, this convention is a sort of male fantasy (and "Tool Time" and "Raymond" were more popular among men than among women...and I don't think either had a particularly huge lefty audience, now that I think of it): childish male misbehaves; loving, attractive sensible wife never misbehaves. These are male fantasies, not female ones.

As Michael Harner points out, this isn't so much the sit-com norm any longer at any rate. Though I disagree with Michael that it was some sort of "backlash." Like I said, it's empty convention. (It's not much different than certain, more-or-less meaningless film conventions: Car stops. Camera pans to bottom of door at curbside. Door opens, and we see a pair of feet exiting the vehicle. Feet are dressed in expensive shoes, as feet's owner is invariably wealthy. You see? Empty convention concocted by lazy producers, who are firmly ensconced in the status quo establishment.)

[GostHacked]

Maybe in sitcoms. But in many other shows, men are king. Many sci-fi series are like this. Your daily soaps don't portray men in this way as the sitcoms.(its men and women equally, because DRAMA!!!!)

[M.Dancer]

I list for you just a few examples of the "men are immature dufuses who need to be corrected and taught by women" stereotype that pervades the media:

Tool Time (sitcom)

Everybody loves Raymond (sitcom)

Kellogs Fruit and nut cereal commercial

Danone Yogurt commercial

If the shoe was on the other foot, women's groups would be enraged.

Conversely

Accidently on Purpose

Big Bang Theory

30 Rock

[naomiglover]

At the end of the day, men rule the world.

[JerrySeinfeld]

At the end of the day, men rule the world.

I would word it differently. Men achieve a lot of things, and make big decisions in life. But on the day to day things there is an odd and large slant biased toward women.

Serendipitously, an interesting article touching on this topic appeared in the media today.

Consider the following:

http://network.nationalpost.com/NP/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2010/04/14/barbara-kay-male-studies-a-proposed-curriculum.aspx

[Rue]

At the end of the day, men rule the world.

1. The beginning and end of my day is with my wife. She would beg to differ with you.

2. You can have it thanks.

3. No one rules the world no matter what kind of genitilia they have. That is an illusion.

At best some of us try control tiny portions of it and we never succeed.

[Argus]

If you look at the OP, the sit-coms referred to haven't been on the air for years. The "men are idiots" thing is so old that it's not even done anymore.

It continues to be a staple of comedy shows in the UK and US, as well as in the few comedy shows we have in Canada. In virtually every case, every helpless babbling idiot is a white male. In every relationship the female is basically in charge, shrewd and all-knowing, the male a hapless bumbler. It is not considered acceptable to portray a woman, at least, not a regular character, as stupid and slutty. It is the norm to portray men that way. This is identical, btw, in shows aimed at younger audiences. The young girls are the smarter ones. The boys are fools who need the girls to save them. Boys saving or protecting girls is not considered politically acceptable, apparently.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

It continues to be a staple of comedy shows in the UK and US, as well as in the few comedy shows we have in Canada. In virtually every case, every helpless babbling idiot is a white male. In every relationship the female is basically in charge, shrewd and all-knowing, the male a hapless bumbler. It is not considered acceptable to portray a woman, at least, not a regular character, as stupid and slutty. It is the norm to portray men that way. This is identical, btw, in shows aimed at younger audiences. The young girls are the smarter ones. The boys are fools who need the girls to save them. Boys saving or protecting girls is not considered politically acceptable, apparently.

I only watch one contemporary comedy show - The Office.

Andy

Angela

Toby

Kevin

Oscar

Stanley

Phyllis

Dwight

Michael

Jim

Pam

Meredith

Meredith is indeed the type of female character you say can't be portrayed.

But I wouldn't be surprised if what you said is generally true. The writers of these shows play to stereotypes as well as what's fashionable, and what is considered acceptable.

[kimmy]

The assumption in the Western world is that "men can take it". That is, white heterosexual men anyway. Everyone else is assumed to be "sensitive" or "disadvantaged" and incapable of taking a little humour or degradation. Don't know where this misguided view comes from but there it is.

I dunno, I survived growing up with Kelli Bundy on TV... I think you guys can live through whoever the current bumbler-du-jour is.

-k

[bloodyminded]

If people consider the bumbling male and more down-to-earth wife to be some attack on their masculinity, then they are oversensitive and deserve to be lampooned anyway.

At any rate, like I said, such shows are, in my view, basically male fantasies anyway, not female ones: the crude, insensitive, overweight bumbling male is paired with a smart, sexy woman who gets frustrated at his shenanigans but remains perfectly loyal and...well, wifely...at all times.

These shows do not have as their targeted demographics man-hating radical feminists. On the contrary, they are conventional, even conservative formulae.

Edited April 24, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Guest American Woman]

At any rate, like I said, such shows are, in my view, basically male fantasies anyway, not female ones: the crude, insensitive, overweight bumbling male is paired with a smart, sexy woman who gets frustrated at his shenanigans but remains perfectly loyal and...well, wifely...at all times.

That's basically what I was just going to say -- and also point out that no crude, overweight, unattractive female character has ever been paired with a good-looking man with a great bod.

As for not portraying women as idiots .... I can't even count how many times I've had to watch a 'damsel in distress' trip and fall while being chased, many times because she was too stupid to take her spike heels off. It never fails. The woman always trips and falls. Drives me nuts.

Also, how many men are skimpily clad when totally unnecessary compared to women? I'm sure that's fine with the men, though.

[bloodyminded]

That's basically what I was just going to say -- and also point out that no crude, overweight, unattractive female character has ever been paired with a good-looking man with a great bod.

No, it's (at least so far) pretty much unthinkable. Great observation.

Also, how many men are skimpily clad when totally unnecessary compared to women? I'm sure that's fine with the men, though.

You want to see these "oppressed males" get really upset? This would do it. It would be considered proof of the Apocalypse.

[kimmy]

I think that is a good analysis.

On a semi-related note, the majority (if not most) of shows are centered on male characters. In action or drama shows, you tend to have the show centered on a male character with a number of highly positive characteristics, and often a few flaws as well. For sit-coms, the show is still centered on male characters... but the character tends to be flawed in ways that the viewer is intended to find amusing.

Sit-com writers aren't trying to shape people's views of humanity. They're trying to create characters that people will laugh at and watch again next week. I don't actually watch sit-coms anymore, and I haven't seen any that revolve around a female character because there just haven't been very many. But I doubt that those that do are centered on women who are smarter and wiser and more perfect than everybody else: how can you write funny material about a character like that?

-k

[atheistwar]

actually Kimmy, you are the little idiot...

the really SHARP END OF OCCAM’S RAZOR…

they mix SKEPTICISM with ATHEISM…

KABOOM…

Now I want you to listen to this little f*cker...

Randi:

When I see your UGLY FACE I understand why you are an atheist

_________________________________

now I want you to watch this video of DELUSION...

with the atheists:

they start begging when they start dying...

_____________________

Atheists,

but you have NO ANSWER TO DEATH... therefore you FAIL...

the Death of Ath*ism

*********************************

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-8-Yxdphsg

DEATH TRAP

**********************************

THE REAL QUESTION:

DOES ATHEISM HAVE A FUTURE?

AND THE ANSWER - NO!

Atheists,

GET OUT OF MY UNIVERSE

you little liars do nothing but antagonize…

and you try to eliminate all the dreams and hopes of humanity…

but you LOST…

THE DEATH OF ATH*ISM - SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF GOD

Crystal Night, Atheists!

FINALE:

Have I said this before?

***********************************

http://warsofatheism.free0host.com/

***********************************

PULLING THE PLUG on atheism

http://www.firstscience.com/site/articles/coles.asp

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3332/3228845133_3599f8108f.jpg

bye

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20090126/as-indonesia-solar-eclipse/images/c52d9d50-7ca2-4c3a-b13c-c866836298c8.jpg

Einstein puts the final nail in the coffin of atheism…

*************************************

*************************************

atheists deny their own life element…

LIGHT OR DEATH, ATHEISTS?

********************************

***************************LIGHT*********

************************************

___________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC7Sg41Bp-U

E=MC2

____________

DOWN THE TOILET!!!

_____________

http://open.salon.com/blog/sandra_no_longer_miller/2009/02/13/files/lamb1234553042.jpg

LAMB POWER!

_____________________

Shermer - Randi - Myers - Harris - Dawkins VS. NOSTRADAMUS - EINSTEIN - MARKUZE

you are ANNIHILATED!!!

FINAL WARNINGS THIS WEEKEND

Repent and turn to God or be destroyed...

[atheistwar]

see KIMMY is a little girl who thinks she can play with the BIG BOYS...

[kimmy]

see KIMMY is a little girl who thinks she can play with the BIG BOYS...

I engage the best and brightest minds on this forum as an equal, and hold my own at the very least.

You on the other hand... can't even hit reply in the right thread.

-k