The Lord's Prayer in School

[Smallc]

I doubt if it is...there is no law dividing church and state in Canada.

Yes, there is. It's in the Constitution. freedom of religion, in order to work, also requires freedom from religion. This has been found to be true in Ontario and British Columbia, and to a lesser extent, Manitoba.

[Sir Bandelot]

So nothing way to be inclusive.

It is a complex topic with no obvious simple solution. But in the immediate context of the thread, I think we're talking about an elementary school. Doubtful that there would be strong opinions among the kids anyway, as I said they probably don't care much. It's the adults who would get sensitive about it.

Sensitivity is one of our big problems as a society. But in principle I reject the notion of shutting down discussion in favour of political correctness as dictated by the state. That is a form of intolerance.

Some discussion about humanities should be tolerated, not silenced. But at the end of the day they need to hit the books. Since the atheist believes there is no god and people have no soul, all there is physical reality, knowledge of science and technology. The school provides that already.

This could be an argument for no religion at all. Why waste time with the lord's prayer? Only school matters.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=16183&view=findpost&p=529643

[M.Dancer]

Yes, there is. It's in the Constitution. freedom of religion, in order to work, also requires freedom from religion. This has been found to be true in Ontario and British Columbia, and to a lesser extent, Manitoba.

Yes sure...but there is nothing to forbid it. Case in point, the opening of parliament.

[Mr.Canada]

You're just a sub, you're not even part of the full time faculty. Do you really think it's your business to try and dictate how a school conducts itself? If it bothers you that much then don't accept the temp job when they call, just say no and wait for the next one.

[ToadBrother]

Now, in the small community in which I live, the school starts the day with O Canada, and then proceeds on to the Lord's Prayer. I substitute teach at the school from time to time, and I don't feel right telling the kids that they have to stand for the prayer if they don't want to (for O Canada though, I don't make exceptions) and quite frankly, I don't think it should happen anymore. In a couple of months, the school is going to be involved in an exchange program with a school in Toronto. Some of the students that are coming belong to non christian faith groups. I suggested to someone that maybe the prayer should stop for that week. They told me that it's not up to the minority to dictate to the majority......I disagree...I was wondering what some think.

I think it's wrong myself. We live in a secular society, and the government, even the lowly public school, has no business promoting religion. If some of the teachers, on their own time, want to pray to whatever gods they see fit, then so be it.

[ToadBrother]

I doubt if it is...there is no law dividing church and state in Canada.

Canada has no established church, unlike the UK.

[wyly]

Well, I will be taking it to Manitoba Education first. We'll see what happens...I doubt much....if I take it too far, people will know who I am...and they'll hate me.

hate you they will, be prepared for threats/insults,rude emails, phone calls,newspaper editorials...the religion of love and tolerance isn't very tolerant...

[ToadBrother]

So uh how would you include atheists?

And that's the old atheist joke. "Sure, you can introduce your religious beliefs to my kids, but in return I get to come in and tell them there's no God."

School is not a place for religious indoctrination. I have no problem with some sort of comparitive religions courses, but reciting the Lord's Prayer is not an academic function, it's purely religious. If parents want their kids to learn religion, there are plenty of churches out there.

[ToadBrother]

You're just a sub, you're not even part of the full time faculty. Do you really think it's your business to try and dictate how a school conducts itself? If it bothers you that much then don't accept the temp job when they call, just say no and wait for the next one.

I wonder. If a Muslim teacher started getting students at a school you were subing at to start praying towards Mecca if you would feel the same way.

[Smallc]

You're just a sub, you're not even part of the full time faculty. Do you really think it's your business to try and dictate how a school conducts itself? If it bothers you that much then don't accept the temp job when they call, just say no and wait for the next one.

I have no problem with the Lord's Prayer. I have a problem with hearing it in a public school. I went to that school for years, never knowing and different. Now I do.

[M.Dancer]

Our father who art in heaven, Harold be his name...

[CANADIEN]

You're just a sub, you're not even part of the full time faculty. Do you really think it's your business to try and dictate how a school conducts itself? If it bothers you that much then don't accept the temp job when they call, just say no and wait for the next one.

His status is irrelevant. If he believes that the school is acting against the law, he is right to raise the issue.

[Guest TrueMetis]

It is a complex topic with no obvious simple solution. But in the immediate context of the thread, I think we're talking about an elementary school. Doubtful that there would be strong opinions among the kids anyway, as I said they probably don't care much. It's the adults who would get sensitive about it.

Sensitivity is one of our big problems as a society. But in principle I reject the notion of shutting down discussion in favour of political correctness as dictated by the state. That is a form of intolerance.

Some discussion about humanities should be tolerated, not silenced. But at the end of the day they need to hit the books. Since the atheist believes there is no god and people have no soul, all there is physical reality, knowledge of science and technology. The school provides that already.

Makeing kids listen to the Lord Prayer is not a disscusion about the Humanities. It is promoting one relgion over another. Also I don't think a elementry school is a place to teach kids about different philosophies outside of it's relevance to what is being taught. (Like say to help understand the motivations of a historical figure) There is more room for this kind of discussion in High School when kids have gained a bit more experiance and are more informed and can decide for themselves.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=16183&view=findpost&p=529643

I never had to do anything like that in my elementry school all we did was learn to read, write, do math, history, and PE. Elementry school kids are not old enough to discuss philosopies.

Edited April 9, 2010 by TrueMetis

[Sir Bandelot]

Makeing kids listen to the Lord Prayer is not a disscusion about the Humanities. It is promoting one relgion over another.

You're not reading the other stuff I already said about that. And I do so hate repeating myself. Cyclical arguments bore me.

What about the O Canada? How does that further their education, if we are not to waste any time in school it should be dropped. I'm pretty sure that any Jehovahs witness would want to leave the room during that part. That's kinda the same as with the lords prayer and atheists. They don't want to hear it.

Personally I don't like it either. It's a dumb song, and they keep changing the words. For a while there used to be a stanza in French. I don't know how to sing it anymore.

And "thy sons command", is sexist! In a perfect world, they wouldn't be allowed to play it.

[Guest TrueMetis]

You're not reading the other stuff I already said about that. And I do so hate repeating myself. Cyclical arguments bore me.

What about the O Canada? How does that further their education, if we are not to waste any time in school it should be dropped. I'm pretty sure that any Jehovahs witness would want to leave the room during that part. That's kinda the same as with the lords prayer and atheists. They don't want to hear it.

Personally I don't like it either. It's a dumb song, and they keep changing the words. For a while there used to be a stanza in French. I don't know how to sing it anymore.

And "thy sons command", is sexist! In a perfect world, they wouldn't be allowed to play it.

I only ever had to sing O Canada during rememberance day. That any school would sing it everyday is just weird to me.

[M.Dancer]

Personally I don't like it either. It's a dumb song, and they keep changing the words. For a while there used to be a stanza in French. I don't know how to sing it anymore.

And "thy sons command", is sexist! In a perfect world, they wouldn't be allowed to play it.

The official english version has never had a french stanza. Although anyone can insert a french line or two.

There are no dumbs songs...only dumb singers...

Edited April 12, 2010 by M.Dancer