Catholic Sex Abuse Criticism = Anti-Semitism?

[ToadBrother]

Respectfully, I think this Hitchensian rant goes way too far.

And I'm an atheist!

Very over the top. The Church is hardly the only organization which has head pedophiles. Similar scandals have rocked some Anglican churches, here in BC we had the whole Residential School scandal which involved churches (mainly United as I recall) and government. Similar styles of cover up have happened in police forces and all sorts of organizations. The Catholic Church is not unique, save in one key respect, that it is so much more vast than these organizations. It's literally a highly hierarchical world-wide structure. Now maybe you can't finger the Vatican, but certainly the leadership in a number of diocese and even from that clearly were responsible either through turning a blind eye or through direct involvement with moving pedophile priests around, or in some cases of doing nothing at all. I mean Bishop John Magee was forced out for basically sitting on his hands for over a decade in Ireland.

At the end of the day, the Church still doesn't seem to be proactively dealing with this. They apologize when they're caught, and aren't opening up to show the full extent.

[bloodyminded]

Very over the top. The Church is hardly the only organization which has head pedophiles. Similar scandals have rocked some Anglican churches, here in BC we had the whole Residential School scandal which involved churches (mainly United as I recall) and government. Similar styles of cover up have happened in police forces and all sorts of organizations. The Catholic Church is not unique, save in one key respect, that it is so much more vast than these organizations. It's literally a highly hierarchical world-wide structure. Now maybe you can't finger the Vatican, but certainly the leadership in a number of diocese and even from that clearly were responsible either through turning a blind eye or through direct involvement with moving pedophile priests around, or in some cases of doing nothing at all. I mean Bishop John Magee was forced out for basically sitting on his hands for over a decade in Ireland.

At the end of the day, the Church still doesn't seem to be proactively dealing with this. They apologize when they're caught, and aren't opening up to show the full extent.

I agree. The reflexively-defensive mode doesn't seem to be working this time around. Transparency and serious house-cleaning are in order.

These are extraordinarily difficult methods to take for any powerful organization. But my heart doesn't exactly bleed for them.

[BubberMiley]

Can you relieve my ignorance by providing some citations?

Yeah, it's getting to easy to expose Shady when he lies. This forum needs more challenging wingnuts.

[Shady]

Literally every denomination and faith tradition has its share of abuse cases, and some of the worst involve non-Catholics. Every mainline Protestant denomination has had scandals aplenty, as have Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovah´s Witnesses, Jews, Buddhists, Hare Krishnas -- and the list goes on. One Canadian Anglican (Episcopal) diocese is currently on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of massive lawsuits caused by decades of systematic abuse, yet the Anglican church does not demand celibacy of its clergy.

Statistically, of all the professions, Christian clergy are least likely to offend. Doctors, Farmers and Teachers are the professions most likely to abuse children--not clergy.

Link

[M.Dancer]

http://c2.api.ning.com/files/V3d3OCp3A2MLbERwMVCTpLUirpi6pecwnuV-MdnaqlL15nGjQhQIY5V1GugVbU0QnwZ4WFLwclbRmJXHlqTwn4AOcIhl5XEK/EmperorPalpatine.jpg

[Bonam]

http://monroelab.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/ori-doci.jpg

[BubberMiley]

Odd. I couldn't find the sentence:

Statistically, of all the professions, Christian clergy are least likely to offend. Doctors, Farmers and Teachers are the professions most likely to abuse children--not clergy.

I just found the one that said:

we have no idea whether the Catholic figure is better or worse than the rate for schoolteachers, residential home counselors, social workers or scout masters.

Nonetheless, way to go.

[scorpio]

Shady, your link is from a Catholic website. Nice going. For the record try using a source comparing the amount of persons coming forward to lay claims or charges against other organizations with those against the Catholic Church. Good luck.

Edited April 7, 2010 by scorpio

[Oleg Bach]

First of all it is not sex any more than same sex marriage contains sex - it is abuse, use and actual occultish vampirism. This so called church of Jesus or more accurately state Paulist garbage has always believed secretly that they could suck the life time out of a child and absorb it as if this action offers eternal youth - THEY DO IT ON PURPOSE...IT IS A POLICY- OF OCCULTISM...TO HELL WITH THE POPE AND ALL OF HIS MINIONS.

[Shady]

Shady, your link is from a Catholic website. Nice going.

Yes, the website is a Catholic website, but the study is from Penn State University. Try reading a little further next time.

Anyways, I'll use Newsweek instead. All of you anti-Catholic bigots can give it a good read. I expect an apology from all of you. Especially Bubber.

The priesthood is being cast as the refuge of pederasts. In fact, priests seem to abuse children at the same rate as everyone else

Experts disagree on the rate of sexual abuse among the general American male population, but Allen says a conservative estimate is one in 10. Margaret Leland Smith, a researcher at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, says her review of the numbers indicates it's closer to one in 5. But in either case, the rate of abuse by Catholic priests is not higher than these national estimates.

...

Most child abusers have one thing in common, and it's not piety—it's preexisting relationships with their victims. That includes priests and ministers and rabbis, of course, but also family members, friends, neighbors, teachers, coaches, scout leaders, youth-group volunteers, and doctors.

...

The fundamental premise here is that those who abuse children overwhelmingly seek out situations where they have easy and legitimate access to children," he said. "These kinds of positions offer a kind of cover for these offenders."

Newsweek

I'd like public apologies from all of you. The usual private message apology isn't good enough for this. Please post your apology, and your acknowledgement of your ignorance, and Catholic prejudice and bigotry.

Thanks in advance.

[ToadBrother]

The priesthood is being cast as the refuge of pederasts. In fact, priests seem to abuse children at the same rate as everyone else

I have no doubt about it. The issue for me isn't the frequency of pedophilia in the Church, it's how the Church has been dealing with incidents.

[scorpio]

I'd like public apologies from all of you. The usual private message apology isn't good enough for this. Please post your apology, and your acknowledgement of your ignorance, and Catholic prejudice and bigotry.

Thanks in advance.

Try world wide. Plus you forgot that stats don't include out of court settlements because the victims are prohibited from talking for fear of lawsuit (this I have personal knowledge of). That is common practice with the catholic church. I don't owe you or anyone an apology for continuing to talk about this abusive church.

link

link2

Edited April 9, 2010 by scorpio

[BubberMiley]

I should apologize for asking for a link? You should apologize for making me ask. Next time include links when you make a post. You've lost your credibility to do otherwise.

[scorpio]

I should apologize for asking for a link? You should apologize for making me ask. Next time include links when you make a post. You've lost your credibility to do otherwise.

If you're referring to me what exactly do you want a link for? I was answering Shady actually re widespread abuse issues in the catholic church. My other link has to do with a website for victims of priest abuse, and how rampant it is in the church. My lawyer, who deals with priest abuse in western Canada states that the church commonly makes deals with victims and orders them to sign confidentiality agreements, threatening them with lawsuits if they disclose specifics of their settlements. She has dealt with the residential schools and other cases where this is the norm.

Edited April 9, 2010 by scorpio

[BubberMiley]

If you're referring to me what exactly do you want a link for?

I wasn't. I was responding to Shady.

[Bonam]

Another incident:

http://www.montrealgazette.com/health/Former+bishop+faces+abuse+charge/2783085/story.html

[Bonam]

More info:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/04/09/bernard-prince-abuse.html?ref=rss

Note how even the Bishop warning the Church not to promote Bernard Prince had this to say:

Honouring Prince could "trigger a reaction among the victim(s) ... and this would prove extremely embarrassing both to the Holy See and to the Diocese of Pembroke, not to mention the possibility of criminal charges being laid and a civil lawsuit ensuing," Windle warned.

Clearly, we can see that even for the individuals in the Church who tried to speak out against what was happening, their primary concern was not with "doing the right thing" or upholding the law, but with trying to keep the Church's crimes from becoming public knowledge, trying to keep from getting caught. Additionally:

He suggested his concerns were shared by other bishops, including:

* Archbishop Aloysius Ambrozic, of Toronto.

* Archbishop Joseph Lawrence Wilhelm, of Kingston.

* Archbishop Francis Spence, Wilhelm's successor.

* Archbishop Marcel Gervais, of Ottawa.

* Bishop John O'Mara, of Thunder Bay.

* Bishop Anthony Tonnos, of Hamilton.

All of these Church officials knew, and did NOTHING. They all knew what was going on, and no one spoke to the police, no one said anything, except to try to warn the Church to be careful so that they don't get caught.

Truly disgusting.

Edited April 10, 2010 by Bonam

[Argus]

The Catholic Church is despised by a whole lot of people.

Uhm, if they are hated by a whole lot of people does that not lend credence to the suggestion they are being unjustly accused because of that hatred?

[Argus]

The problem here is that there really is no comparison between a thousand years of anti-Semitism in Europe (in at least some cases promulgated by the very organization now claiming a similar burden), all the abuses, persecutions, exiles, murders and pogroms culminating in the Holocaust with the Church getting much justified heat for protecting child molesters and of putting its own short-term interests ahead of the victims.

I think the more apt comparison is between modern anti-semitism as practiced in the West - which is generally a kind of sneering contempt - often masked around the public, to the sort of sneering contempt felt by many of the more liberal, secular members of the western media towards the Catholic Church and hierarchy. And I would submit that contempt has nothing to do with sex with minors and everything to do with the Church's politically unacceptable moral pronouncements on social issues dear to the hearts and minds of the Left.

[Argus]

School boards do not routinely try to hide cases of sexual abuse. And people speaking at official events do not evoke anti-Semitism in the hope of silencing critics.

Actually, there was a time when schools ignored evidence of sexual abuse and would be more likely to punish the student who made them than a respected teacher.

[Argus]

No. Amongst other things homosexuality is not an organization with a hierarchy of authority.

The Church on the other hand is emerging as the world's oldest biggest organized network of pedophiles the planet has ever seen.

You appear to know almost nothing about either paedophilia, or the Church, or the incidents of child abuse which took place. Should you even be attempting to take part in this discussion?

[Argus]

One can only take comfort in hoping that with the exposure of the way that the Church shelters perverse monsters who derive their vile pleasures from defiling innocent children, perhaps the world will at last see this conclave of miscreants for what it truly is, and it will lose the remaining vestiges of its ill begotten power. This house of evil must be overturned; religion's ancient grip over humanity, which has allowed it to torment so many souls, must at last be broken.

Oh yeah, there's no one around who hates the Catholic Church in the same way as the Nazi types had Jews. Nope. Nowhere to be found. Quite an exaggeration on their part.

[Argus]

I have no doubt about it. The issue for me isn't the frequency of pedophilia in the Church, it's how the Church has been dealing with incidents.

There is very little paedophila in the church. Very little of what the ignorant are terming "pedophila" has anything to do with actual pedophiles. I'm sure they exist, that there have been cases in the Church, but the vast majority appear to involve sex with minors, which is a completely different affair (no pun intended).

Sex with minors might well be illegal, depending on the country, but it's not a clinical psychologically diagnosed mental illness as paedophilia is. In fact, sexual interest in teenagers is fairly widespread and is considered quite normal from a psychological/sexuality standpoint. For most of the history of our species the correct term for a fourteen year old girl was "Mom", remember. It's only been in our recent cultural advancement and the lengthening of lifespans brought on by scientific advancement that we've sort of pushed the acceptable age range for sexual activity upwards. And we keep pushing it higher all the time, oddly.

When I was a younger teenager even the more upscale, mainstream mens magazines in the UK routinely pictured naked girls of the 15-17 age range, and Tracy Lords started her career as a porn star - a very successful one - in the US at 15. Men lusted after her and flocked to her movies, not realizing her actual age. No, what you have in the Church is not an example of pedophilia priest but celebrate priests giving way to one of the most powerful instincts our species has - sex - with people who were available, attractive (well, if you're gay) and in the context of power relationships, able to be dominated, seduced or coerced into allowing that sex.

Edited April 10, 2010 by Argus

[Argus]

The Church is hardly the only organization which has head pedophiles. Similar scandals have rocked some Anglican churches, here in BC we had the whole Residential School scandal which involved churches (mainly United as I recall) and government. Similar styles of cover up have happened in police forces and all sorts of organizations.

One must keep the times and the culture in mind when considering how these things were allowed to go on. No one talked about stuff like this, and the idea of adults molesting children sexually was unheard of, a deep, dark societal thing that most considered to be extremely rare to the point of mockery. I remember that even into the seventies, Saturday Night Live had a recurring character - Uncle something or other - who would earnestly try to get the people portraying young children to reach into his pocket for sweets, sit on his lap, and make all kinds of other salivating, double-entendres about the "children". This was considered hilarious at the time.

Mainstream authority didn't want to hear about molesting children. Whether it was church authorities (any church), police, government, teachers, whatever. They turned a blind, disapproving, disgusted eye on it, not wanting such filthy topics brought out into the open. They didn't see because they didn't WANT to see. Even within families there was a time when a child who complained about Uncle Joe or Grandpa rubbing his or her bottom or whatever would be slapped and told to stop talking like that. Most large families had at least one "pervert" they all knew about who had an interest in young people. Such perverts were frowned upon, but tolerated. They might not be left alone in close proximity to children but rare was the family who ever considered calling the cops on him.

The Catholic Church is a huge organization run, inevitably by bureaucrats. This is an unfortunately common human failing. Take a good police officer, and promote him repeatedly, up into the higher ranks, and what you get is a bureaucrat. He might think of himself as a cop, and remember when he was a cop, but now his life revolves around reports and documents and meetings, and doing his best to ensure he and his responsibility area look good to his superiors. Woe betide any of his subordinates that bring him bad news that will make him look bad to those above. The same goes for soldiers. Get stars on their shoulders and now their job is to earnestly convince his superiors that his area of responsibility is functioning with flawless efficiency, and it's only natural for such people to try to downplay bad news or try to "make it go away".

One would hope that priests were immune to such things but clearly that's not the case. Promote them and they become bureaucrats too, more worried about how they look to those above them, about budgets and statistics and making themselves and their areas look good to the bureaucrats above them. There is also the Catholic tradition of confession and forgiveness, of repentance and penitence. Naive, even silly in modern times, perhaps, with regard to priests who molested minors. But I can easily see them being seen as "succumbing to weakness and sin" as opposed to nasty, evil men, and after realizing the errors of their ways, being reassigned with some confidence they would not again succumb. That sort of philosophy only added to the problem of bureaucrats trying to keep bad news quiet.

[BubberMiley]

Uhm, if they are hated by a whole lot of people does that not lend credence to the suggestion they are being unjustly accused because of that hatred?

I don't know. If Jamaican immigrants are hated by a whole lot of people, does that not lend credence to the suggestion they are being unjustly accused because of that hatred?