Ontarians to be hit again

[Moonbox]

I dunno, Moon. I sure don't hear the poor themselves complaining about corporate taxes.

I sure do. The whole platform of the NDP last election revolved around it too.

[bloodyminded]

I sure do. The whole platform of the NDP last election revolved around it too.

At any rate, it is not this baleful entity you refer to as "the poor" who call for higher corporate taxes: it's the middle-class majority who feels this way.

Also such poverty-stricken envious individuals as Warren Buffet and George Soros.

[Wild Bill]

I dunno, Moon. I sure don't hear the poor themselves complaining about corporate taxes.

The truly poor - we don't hear from them much IMO.

Quoting "the poor" is like quoting "society". It's just some imaginary entity someone can claim to speak for to prop up their argument, with little fear of being corrected. It is usually used when some collective agency wants to screw over some individual. The claim is made that "it's for the good of society!". Somehow we all pay more but society as a whole never seems to actually be improved.

Ayn Rand had one of the best definitions of "society" in this context. It went something like "Society is everyone in general yet no one in particular but it is never, ever YOU!"

[Moonbox]

At any rate, it is not this baleful entity you refer to as "the poor" who call for higher corporate taxes: it's the middle-class majority who feels this way.

My point was that the people clamoring the loudest for environmental change and Green Energy are the ones it's going to hurt the most. FYI I'm part of the (young) middle-class majority. I'm not speaking from an altar. I just can't relate to idiots who run themselves off a cliff.

Also such poverty-stricken envious individuals as Warren Buffet and George Soros.

Warren Buffet's so rich right now he can safely say whatever he wants. The world could fall down around him and he'd still be a billionaire.

[bloodyminded]

My point was that the people clamoring the loudest for environmental change and Green Energy are the ones it's going to hurt the most. FYI I'm part of the (young) middle-class majority. I'm not speaking from an altar. I just can't relate to idiots who run themselves off a cliff.

Warren Buffet's so rich right now he can safely say whatever he wants. The world could fall down around him and he'd still be a billionaire.

All this seems rather a sidestep to my post, which was in direct response to your original claim about the "poor" whiners.

[Argus]

At any rate, it is not this baleful entity you refer to as "the poor" who call for higher corporate taxes: it's the middle-class majority who feels this way.

Also such poverty-stricken envious individuals as Warren Buffet and George Soros.

What Buffet has mostly called for is higher taxes on the wealthy, not on corporations. He pointed out that he personally paid a lower tax rate than his receptionist - which is silly, admittedly, but that's in the US. Canada's corporate tax rates are higher than all our competitors, and it's too easy for corpporations to move shop to where their tax rates will be lower. I could agree to higher taxes on high individual earnings - to a degree - but not on corporations. But that would be secondary to what I believe is more logical and fair, which is cutting the non-essential services and costs.

[bloodyminded]

What Buffet has mostly called for is higher taxes on the wealthy, not on corporations. He pointed out that he personally paid a lower tax rate than his receptionist - which is silly, admittedly, but that's in the US. Canada's corporate tax rates are higher than all our competitors, and it's too easy for corpporations to move shop to where their tax rates will be lower. I could agree to higher taxes on high individual earnings - to a degree - but not on corporations. But that would be secondary to what I believe is more logical and fair, which is cutting the non-essential services and costs.

I take your point about Buffet, and I don't doubt your correction is accurate. But I wasn't arguing for higher corporate taxes--an issue on which I remain agnostic, the only rational stance for ignorance. Rather, I was contending that the continent is not beset by legions of poverty-stricken "whiners" calling for higher corporate taxes (which is the claim that was made); rather, those calling for higher corporate taxes (wrongly or not is irrelevant here) are middle-class folk.

[Michael Hardner]

Back to the thread - do we have sources for those numbers posted earlier ?

[Moonbox]

Rather, I was contending that the continent is not beset by legions of poverty-stricken "whiners" calling for higher corporate taxes (which is the claim that was made); rather, those calling for higher corporate taxes (wrongly or not is irrelevant here) are middle-class folk.

Really? Just the middle class folk eh? We're all calling for higher corporate taxes? That's why the Liberals have been so anti-corporation for the last decade or so??

[bloodyminded]

Really? Just the middle class folk eh? We're all calling for higher corporate taxes? That's why the Liberals have been so anti-corporation for the last decade or so??

When I say "middle-class folk," there is no reason, aside from petty-mindedness, to take that as encompassing every individual from the middle class.

[Moonbox]

When I say "middle-class folk," there is no reason, aside from petty-mindedness, to take that as encompassing every individual from the middle class.

Certainly not, but it leads us to question where you're drawing the lines. None of what you said really has any bearing either on my original premise, which was that the energy rate increases will hurt the people who are riding hardest on the green energy bandwagon.

The irony seems to escape you.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Moonbox

[Smallc]

That's why the Liberals have been so anti-corporation for the last decade or so??

I'm going to assume that you're being facetious. The Liberals cut corporate taxes big time.

[Argus]

Argus - your post was informative. Do you have links ? I'm glad that there seems to be more interest in this topic than there was in healthcare. Let's see what information is out there for Ontario Hydro.

I don't think most people really have an understanding of how much higher their electricity costs are going to get if McGuinty's government keeps bringing on line these heavily subsidized "green energy" power plants. And higher power rates are just going to go hand in hand with the higher dollar and high taxes to kill off Ontario's manufacturing sector.

Taking a Deep Breath on Wind Power

Hydro Bill to get even bigger

McGuinty's Ill Wind

[Bonam]

Quoting "the poor" is like quoting "society". It's just some imaginary entity someone can claim to speak for to prop up their argument, with little fear of being corrected. It is usually used when some collective agency wants to screw over some individual. The claim is made that "it's for the good of society!". Somehow we all pay more but society as a whole never seems to actually be improved.

Ayn Rand had one of the best definitions of "society" in this context. It went something like "Society is everyone in general yet no one in particular but it is never, ever YOU!"

Ah, someone else that's read Rand, how nice. This is pretty much my view of it as well.

[Moonbox]

I'm going to assume that you're being facetious. The Liberals cut corporate taxes big time.

Yes that's my point. The Liberals probably hold the biggest chunk of the middle class vote so I'm not so sure I agree with bloodyminded's claim they're the ones most vocal against corporate tax cuts.

[Michael Hardner]

Source: Ontario Power Authority - Integrated Power System Plan