Bilingualism

[Argus]

So Scott Reid had to resign for expressing any doubts about the perfection that is Official Bilingualism, for suggesting that, with a national consensus, we might perhaps look at the program and whether it's neccessary all across Canada. What an extremist!

OB was brought in with, I think, good intentions on the part of most Anglos. The theory was that people all over Canada would be able to get service in either official language - where reasonable, of course. We weren't going to make every rural post office in Alberta be fluent in French.

And then we did. And then OB was expanded throughout the government. Hundreds of millions were set aside each year to promote the French minority language outside Quebec, and easily hundreds of dollars on promoting the English language in Quebec. The government has for some years set out to find Francophones willing to immigrate to Canada and settle in these minority areas outside Quebec in order to bolster their numbers. And bilingualism within the government was made the mantra.

You can't go high in either the government, the civil service, the military or RCMP without being able to speak both languages now. Regardless of whether you have any contact with the public.

This has had the effect, of course, of raising the numbers of Quebecers in the senior ranks of all federal institutions. And that process is still underway. The numbers of Anglos in the civil service are falling, the numbers of Francophones rising. Especially in the senior ranks. Treasury Board figures show 74% of bilingual positions are filled by Francophones, with, from my experience, a good chunk of the remainder by Anglo Quebecers. The inevitable result, as the mostly anglo boomers retire and younger, mostly Francophone people rise into management, is the vast majority (perhaps 85%-90% of executives, managers and supervisors in the civil service will be Quebecers.

Is this fair? Are Canadians in BC, Alberta and Ontario content with the knowledge that policies, legislation and programs are going to be designed, approved, run, budgeted and interpreted mostly by Quebecers? Usually under a Quebec Prime Minister? And is Official Bilingualism worth that? Has it really accomplished anything much to make Quebecers feel more a part of Canada? Do Quebecers really care that people in rural Ontario get bilingual postal services?

[takeanumber]

Ahem.

there are rural communities in Alberta, Ontario and B.C. that have a high percentage of francophones.

What the hell do you have agaist francophone farmers, huh?

As for your Treasury Board statistics, I don't think they're that lopsided. I've seen the quotas for different regions, and frankly, they're sick.

It should always be based on merit, not on language.

However, Reid was making comments to the Times and Transcript, and was making Jonesist comments, which actually stoked up some old, bad memories, and bolstered the accurate perception that the old COR core, which used to be Reform nucleus in New Brunswick, has in fact implanted itself into the new Conservative party successfully, and that the culture of intolerance is indeed still alive in the Conservative party.

I don't think all conservatives are bad people, I just think so many conservatives refuse to look past their city block and think of what's right for society. Billingualism might be expensive, but it's what's best, especially for New Brunswick.

Those are true dynamics as to what was going on.

[Michael Hardner]

You can talk about official bilingualism all you want, but your party might have something to say about it if it contradicts offical party policy.

The new Conservative party is learning to pick its battles and it has picked taxes and integrity, which are good choices IMO for a party that wants to win.

[Goldie]

The Royal Bank in Vancouver has Chinese on its ATM machines and not because of some law. They do this because it is viable for them to do so.

In contrast the government provides services in french in Kelowna and limits employees of same, to those that are bilingual, even though it may not be viable as the population doesn't warrant it.

I think as Jean Lapiere said you have an English Canada and a French Canada so wake up.

[takeanumber]

I think as Jean Lapiere said you have an English Canada and a French Canada so wake up.

You might want an English Canada and a French Canada.

I want a Canada.

There's a fundamental difference.

If it costs extra, so be it. At least a francophone from Quebec can go on vacation in Kelowna and still mail a letter.

What do you have against French tourists or French in general?

[Argus]

If it costs extra, so be it. At least a francophone from Quebec can go on vacation in Kelowna and still mail a letter.

What do you have against French tourists or French in general?

I doubt French tourists concern him. There aren't any. Or at least, very, very few. Quebecers have shown virtually zero interest in visiting the rest of Canada. Those that do go to Ottawa. Almost none bother going out west. They are just NOT INTERESTED in the Canada outside Quebec.

Ever read a Quebec newspaper? Even the English ones act as if Canada is a seperate country. All their news, all their interest is focused on Quebec. They don't care what happens in Toronto or St. Johns or Vancouver unless it affects them.

[takeanumber]

They are just NOT INTERESTED in the Canada outside Quebec.

Ever read a Quebec newspaper? Even the English ones act as if Canada is a seperate country. All their news, all their interest is focused on Quebec. They don't care what happens in Toronto or St. Johns or Vancouver unless it affects them.

That's not true.

Are you aware of the flow of eastern quebeckers into the rocky mountains to work and to ski?

You seem to be focused exclusively on your own generation. Those under 30 tend to be quite different WRT Canada. We grew up billingual, if not heavily broken Billingual in places (lol), but hey, it HAS paid off. And I wouldn't trade it for anything.

You know -- you have the choice to learn French too.

[Argus]

Ahem.

there are rural communities in Alberta, Ontario and B.C. that have a high percentage of francophones.

Indeed there are. And the government is recuiting French speakers abroad to immigrate to Canada and settle in those communities. Does anyone have even the slightest doubt how Quebecers would react if the government recruited English speakers abroad to prop up the numbers in Anglo communities in Quebec? Clearly the government knows. That's why such a policy was never even considered.

As for your Treasury Board statistics, I don't think they're that lopsided.  I've seen the quotas for different regions, and frankly, they're sick.

Well, you know, what you think really isn't important. Those are the figures which were read into the House of Commons, and never contradicted. Nor would anyone with any knowledge of Canada bother to try. After all, Statistics Canada puts the number of Anglos claiming bilingualism at about 7% (note Anglo Quebecers report 66% bilingualism). Meanwhile 43% of Francophones report being bilingual. Furthermore, most of those Anglos aren't really all that bilingual, not enough to pass the stringent tests the federal government gives.

I don't think all conservatives are bad people, I just think so many conservatives refuse to look past their city block and think of what's right for society.

So you believe what is right for society is for Quebec to rule Canada, for all the major players in the public service to be Quebecers, and all the policies, programs and legislation to be decided by them?

And the overall civil service, quite aside from executives in bilingual positions, is getting more and more French.

Only 22% of federal employees over age 55 are French (about right for their population). But this is the group which is rapidly nearing retirement. The younger a civil servant is the more likely he or she is to be French. Of those between 35 and 54 years of age, the Francophone percentage jumps to 32%. For those under age 35 the figure jumps to 37%. I haven't found a figure for those under 25 but in my experience more than half are Francophones.

Those are true dynamics as to what was going on.

[Argus]

They are just NOT INTERESTED in the Canada outside Quebec.

Ever read a Quebec newspaper? Even the English ones act as if Canada is a seperate country. All their news, all their interest is focused on Quebec. They don't care what happens in Toronto or St. Johns or Vancouver unless it affects them.

That's not true.

Are you aware of the flow of eastern quebeckers into the rocky mountains to work and to ski?

Yeah, I'm aware there are so many that tourist operators are desperately seeking bilingual people - English and Japanese. There are more Japanese tourists in the western ski hills than Quebec tourists. Read a Quebec newspaper and see how little interest there is in the rest of Canada. Even national politics, outside of elections and scandals, takes a distant back seat to what's going on in Quebec city.

[takeanumber]

Indeed there are. And the government is recuiting French speakers abroad to immigrate to Canada and settle in those communities. Does anyone have even the slightest doubt how Quebecers would react if the government recruited English speakers abroad to prop up the numbers in Anglo communities in Quebec? Clearly the government knows. That's why such a policy was never even considered.

I think the policy you're thinking of is the "Canada Policy" launched by MacDonald back in 18xx, but I cant be sure. Yeh, a lot migrated out.

Ah, there's something in our constitution called the freedom of mobility. I don't know if you heard of it or not. It's one of those rights that S. 33 can't override.

To a certain extent, federal policy is kind of drowning the Quebec nation in Montreal.

Anyway, can you leave this veiled hatred of Francophones behind, I think it's really offensive for you to imply that rural communities, many which have existed for 80-90 years, are assimilation outposts.

I already told you that treasury board guidelines are 'sick', and the whole civil service needs to go to a merit system. This is the most liberal thing to do. The system in place now of quotas is called 'new anti-liberalism', and it's sick.

So you believe what is right for society is for Quebec to rule Canada, for all the major players in the public service to be Quebecers, and all the policies, programs and legislation to be decided by them?

Quebec has 75/300 seats. It benefits from the 1984 law just as Saskatchewan and Manitoba does. (Don't get me started on the ill-distribution of seats). They by no means 'rule' Canada.

The reason why there are more billingual people in the civil service as you move down the list demographically, the reason is because younger generations are more billingual.

On the whole, I agree with you on many points, but I think you start using xenophobic attacks, you lose credibility.

[August1991]

This has had the effect, of course, of raising the numbers of Quebecers in the senior ranks of all federal institutions. And that process is still underway. The numbers of Anglos in the civil service are falling, the numbers of Francophones rising.

That's false as it relates to the federal public service as a whole. I haven't been able to find data on senior public servants (EX category).

In 1998, there were some 179,831public servants of which 125,997 (70%) were anglophone and 53,174 (30%) were francophone. (Another 660 were 'unknown'). The report notes that this has proportion has remained stable since 1984.

Treasury Board data - goto p. 71

[This data doesn't include Crown corporations.]

The federal government is a complex organization spread across the country. Employees tend to use the language of the region. In Ottawa, the main language by far is English. As the joke has it "French to follow..." The bilingual imperative status for positions is just part of the bureaucratic game. But it is impossible to be a player without a good command of English including written English.

BTW, there are numerous unlingual Anglophone ministers but no unilingual Francophone has ever been appointed to cabinet.

These points are neither here nor there. We are light-years from Diefenbaker issuing bilingual cheques. Until Trudeau, the entire federal service - even in Quebec - functioned solely in English. That's changed. There are no longer arguments about cereal boxes. In 1976, there was an extremely serious national crisis about languages used by pilots. Such a crisis would not happen now in the same way as then.

A large number of English Canadians now consider that Canada's two languages are part of what defines Canada. While many English Canadians can't speak French well, to an American, all Canadians are perfectly bilingual.

What Harper said and his own spin:

NEWMAN: All right. Quickly now, bilingualism, they have this one as well and they obviously think that's a big issue. "As a religion, bilingualism is the God that failed. Canada is not a bilingual country. It is in fact less bilingual today than it ever has been." You said that in 2001.

HARPER: Yeah, I think it was an article I wrote where I was really commenting about the early Trudeau vision which, you know, as many of us understood it way, way back when I was a boy, was about making the country more bilingual, French and English, from coast to coast. And of course, when I say we're not a bilingual country, what I mean is, I mean obviously we're officially bilingual. What I mean is it's a linguistically complex country. Some parts of the country, some Canadians are very bilingual but large parts of the country and most Canadians are not bilingual. And our language legislation has to reflect that reality

Newman Interview of Harper - Random web site

I think Harper's wrong but I understand his point.

"What really makes French strong in Canada is a place in Canada, in parts of Canada, where French is the first language, not places in Canada where French is the second language," Harper said.

Toronto Star quote today

This later quote makes a lot more sense and shows an understanding of Quebec that is rare among English Canadians.

Quebecers are extremely concious of the fact that they are a small island of several million francophones in a sea of millions and millions of anglophones. They will agree with anyone who proposes anything that offers some security. They are finely tuned to any comment that implies a threat. Assimilation is the great fear.

[Argus]

Indeed there are. And the government is recuiting French speakers abroad to immigrate to Canada and settle in those communities. Does anyone have even the slightest doubt how Quebecers would react if the government recruited English speakers abroad to prop up the numbers in Anglo communities in Quebec? Clearly the government knows. That's why such a policy was never even considered.

I think the policy you're thinking of is the "Canada Policy" launched by MacDonald back in 18xx, but I cant be sure. Yeh, a lot migrated out.

Actually, what I'm talking about is the Strategic Framework to Foster Immigration to Francophone Minority Communities. The purpose of this policy at Citizenship and Immigration is to "Increase the number of French-speaking immigrants to give more demographic weight to Francophone minority communities" They do this by targeted recruiting in French speaking countries to entice more Francophones to come to Canada, and by steering them towards minority French communities outside Quebec. Only 4.4% of Canadians outside Quebec are French and the government wants to increase this.

Anyway, can you leave this veiled hatred of Francophones behind, I think it's really offensive for you to imply that rural communities, many which have existed for 80-90 years, are assimilation outposts.

You know, if I was French I could come on here and rant and rave and call Anglos names and accuse them of all kinds of things and you would just think I was a proud "quebecois". In my memory no Quebecois has ever been accused of anything like "hatred" of Anglos for the unceasing efforts made by so many to eliminate English from their lives. But let an Anglo query any aspect of biased legislation and he's immediately jumped on and accused of hating the French.

I don't hate the French. But I grew up in a society which valued fairness. I was taught that fairness was something that was at the heart of Canadian values. Clearly, fairness has little importance to you. You don't seem to care if a policy is unfair or discriminatory so long as somehow, though you aren't sure how exactly, it might be pleasing to Francophones, might make them just a little less disgusted with being forced to remain in Canada.

And the irony is that despite all the efforts of bilingualism proponents there is no evidence French Quebecers give a damn about it, or that they wouldn't vote to leave in a second if they thought they had a decent chance of successfully doing so and not going bankrupt. Were it not for the English and immigrant vote in Quebec they would seperate today.

http://www.cric.ca/en_html/opinion/opv5n39.html#watch

So you believe what is right for society is for Quebec to rule Canada, for all the major players in the public service to be Quebecers, and all the policies, programs and legislation to be decided by them?

Quebec has 75/300 seats. It benefits from the 1984 law just as Saskatchewan and Manitoba does. (Don't get me started on the ill-distribution of seats). They by no means 'rule' Canada.

You chose not to answer the question. Given your apparent total support for Official Bilingualism, and the results that virtually all executives in teh public service will be Quebecers, do you feel it acceptable that legislation, policies, budgets, program administration and design, etc. will be done largely by Quebecers?

The reason why there are more billingual people in the civil service as you move down the list demographically, the reason is because younger generations are more billingual.

Excuse me, but please read again. I did not say there were more bilingual people as you move down the generations I said more French people. In fact, the bilingualism statistics show young Anglophones outside Quebec are becoming less bilingual, not more.

To quote from the 2001 census on language and bilingualism:

"Bilingualism losing some ground among young anglophones outside Quebec

Most anglophones outside Quebec learn French at school. As a result, the bilingualism rate peaks in the age group 15 to 19, when young people complete their high school education. Many teenagers in that age group had been enrolled in French as a second language or immersion programs.

However, from 1996 to 2001, bilingualism lost some ground among anglophones aged 15 to 19 outside Quebec. In 2001, 14.7% of anglophones in this age group outside Quebec were bilingual. While this was twice the proportion for the anglophone population as a whole (7.1%), it was lower than the proportion of 16.3% among anglophones aged 15 to 19 in 1996.

Even in the age group 10 to 14, the bilingualism rate fell from 12.9% in 1996 to 11.5% in 2001. The pattern was the same in every province west of Quebec."

[Argus]

QUOTE]This has had the effect, of course, of raising the numbers of Quebecers in the senior ranks of all federal institutions. And that process is still underway. The numbers of Anglos in the civil service are falling, the numbers of Francophones rising.

That's false as it relates to the federal public service as a whole. I haven't been able to find data on senior public servants (EX category).

The following link shows Francophone participation rising, though only slowly. I am looking for a previous link which shows it rising more quickly. However, the main thrust of my argument was on the higher levels of the civil service in Ottawa. That is where all the decisions are made. Follow the following link. It pretty much backs up everything I said about Francophones taking 78% of bilingual jobs, and about the older Anglo workforce

civil service[

The facts are very clear. 78% of bilingual jobs go to Francophones NOW. The possibility of a skilled Anglo getting an EX job in Ottawa and then learning French is now gone. It disappeared at the end of last year when the rules were changed. Therefore, the percentage of Francophones occupying bilingual positions is only going to go up. The decisions about what money is handed out, and where, how programs are administered, how legislation is interpreted, what areas need more help, where staff should be located, what new proposals to give to political masters, will be coming mostly from Francophones (with some bilingual anglos), the vast majority from Quebec.

[August1991]

Thanks Argus, that's a good link. The fact that this data is hard to find is evidence of how the issue has changed. Now the public service is all about visible minorities and so on.

The data of "your link" says, not surprisingly, the same as the data of "my link" - with the provisio that most allophones are probably counted as anglophones.

Did you see the breakdown of "your link" for management (EX?). It was 78% anglo and 22% franco.

Again though, I repeat, this is neither here nor there. When the guys sit down to talk and make decsions, they speak English. To get attention, they have to write clearly in English. What percentage of work appraisals/job assessments (or whatever they're called) are written in English?

Argus, you say you work in all that. (And you're posting here? Huh?) Be objective and look at the players. They speak English.

Now, something really curious is the fact that NOBODY in Ottawa talks about this openly. EVER. Occasionally, there are veiled references. So Soviet. Long live the Internet.

[Argus]

Did you see the breakdown of "your link" for management (EX?).  It was 78% anglo and 22% franco.

And did you note that a large proportion of this group are long time civil servants, boomers, in other words, nearing retirement? And that with each shfit downwards in age the proportion of Francophones increases?

Two other things to take into account. In the last couple of years the civil service has really cracked down on managers and execs who do not meet bilingual requirements. In my shop of some 20 managers, I have seen 6 Anglo managers who had been dodging the requirements sent away on language training in the last two years. Ther are now NO unilingual managers in my directorate.

In addition the elimination of "bilingual non-imperative" positions will certainly have a major impact. I can tell you from my own personal experience that almost all of the Anglo managers/directors in my area got their positions first, and then got their bilingual training. This will no longer be possible. In the last year and a half I have seen one new director and three new managers in my directorate. All are Francophones. They are all reasonably young, in their early forties. Most of the Anglo managers are holdovers, in their mid fifties.

And to repeat the pertinent statistic. 78% of bilingual positions are filled by Francophones (with, we can safely assume, a high percentage of Quebecers among the 22% of the positions which go to Anglos). With the new crackdown on management bilingualism, the increasing retirement of older Anglos promoted before they cracked down, and the elimination of bilingual non-imperative positions the resistance to that statistic which the senior ranks held is gone. There is no reason to believe that the EX ranks will not mirror other bilingual positions soon.

Argus, you say you work in all that.  (And you're posting here?  Huh?)  Be objective and look at the players.  They speak English.

That seems to depend on the organization and the person in charge. There are groups where barely a word of English is heard. One director, a Francophone is a fanatic about bilingualism. Most of his shop are Francophones, and little English is heard at meetings or in the halls. The Branch leadership and their staff are mainly French, and little English is heard there. The main language in my directorate however IS English. But I don't expect it to remain that way. As I said, the old Anglo managers are retiring, and the new managers coming in are French. And at least half the new PM-2s being hired are Francophones. The requirement set for new PM-2s is bilingualism, though none have any contact with the public.

[takeanumber]

However, from 1996 to 2001, bilingualism lost some ground among anglophones aged 15 to 19 outside Quebec.

Yes, but there was a massive boost from 1982-1996.

Everybody I grew up with are billingual. It seems like everybody in my generation is billingual. I'm not surprised that billingualism lost some ground during the late echo period, given the quality of the french spoken by the early echo's.

Alright, the strategic plan to enlarge minority communities...is it an assimilation attempt against anglos? No.

I don't get why you're ranting about it.

I've already stated that I believe in fairness. The Quota system is wrong. It should be based on merit.

The cost of billingual programs are relatively small. I don't know the exact figure. Frankly, if it was 1 billion dollars in total cost, it would be worth it. There are so many benefits from official billingualism that can't be measured in dollars and cents. It makes Canada's workforce better too. So I'm all for it.

I grew up around a lot of anti-francophone people, and anti-anglophone: outright bigots, who made statement exactly like you've made here, and then claim that they're not bigots because when Quebecois make bigoted statements, they're not called bigots. They claim they're not xenophobic because the other side is xenophobic. Then they point out how much of a victim THEY'RE made out be by being pointed out as xenophobic.

Surprise: you're both guilty of xenophobic bigotry. Both anti-Anglophone Francophones and anti-Francophone Anglophones.

How Guilty? As guilty as a flag drapped Liberal around a slush fund.