When will Harper add senate seats out west?

Mr.Canada · March 7, 2010

I was looking this moreing at the Senate seat divisons and NS and NB have 10 Senate seats each while BC and AB have 6 each. AB and BC have 4 and 5 times the population of the NS and NB but have 4 fewer seats then each of these. Same goes for the population in Ontario, it has also grown.

This seems extremely unfair and was wondering if anyone thinks they shuld add seats to BC and AB?

I am asking this in a non partisan way. I just think it's unfair and needs to be re adjusted. I remeber their was talk of this a while back but nothing seemsed to cxome of it. I'm still searching the net for more info but thought I'd put this here anyhow as discussion seems stagnant atm.

EDIT - Ok I found this. So is this to mean that there will be seats added after the 2011 census at the sole discretion of the Chief Electoral Officer?

Unless parlaiment can agree and pass the bill from what I understand right?

Anyone know the status if ths bill?

EDIT#2- So when these new seats get granted to the respective provinces who gets to choose the people who sit in them? Does the PM get to pick all these seantors or is it decided by the provinces the first time around because they're new seats or how does this work with new Senate seats?

Edited March 7, 2010 by Mr.Canada

punked · March 7, 2010

I was looking this moreing at the Senate seat divisons and NS and NB have 10 Senate seats each while BC and AB have 6 each. AB and BC have 4 and 5 times the population of the NS and NB but have 4 fewer seats then each of these.

This seems extremely unfair and was wondering if anyone thinks they shuld add seats to BC and AB?

I am asking this in a non partisan way. I just think it's unfair and needs to be re adjusted. I remeber their was talk of this a while back but nothing seemsed to cxome of it. I'm still searching the net for more info but thought I'd put this here anyhow as discussion seems stagnant atm.

EDIT - Ok I found this. So is this to mean that there will be seats added after the 2011 census at the sole discretion of the Chief Electoral Officer?

Unless parlaiment can agree and pass the bill from what I understand right?

Anyone know the status if ths bill?

EDIT#2- So when these new seats get granted to the respective provinces who gets to choose the people who sit in them? Does the PM get to pick all these seantors or is it decided by the provinces the first time around because they're new seats or how does this work with new Senate seats?

Nope the only way too add Senate seats is too change the Constitution. Wont happen.

Mr.Canada · March 7, 2010

Nope the only way too add Senate seats is too change the Constitution. Wont happen.

Are you sure about this? The number of Senate seats is galvanized into the Constitution?

This seems silly. I read that the CEO will be deciding on the amount of new Senate seats after the 2011 census is this not true?

EDIT- yeah I just read the section, it is in there. Ok but it should be easy for them to get 50% of the population to vote in favor of it. Ontario, AB and BC ccombined have over 50% of Canads population so it should be easy. no?

Edited March 7, 2010 by Mr.Canada

punked · March 7, 2010

Are you sure about this? The number of Senate seats is galvanized into the Constitution?

This seems silly. I read that the CEO will be deciding on the amount of new Senate seats after the 2011 census is this not true?

Positive the only time a set number of population added a senate seat was in Manitoba in 1882 under the Manitoba Act which said if your population reaches this amount you will get another Senate seat. All other seats added or taken away have been so through a constitutional amendment, or a constitutional provision. The Constitution also says their will never be more then 113 Senators and there are 105 right now.

punked · March 7, 2010

Are you sure about this? The number of Senate seats is galvanized into the Constitution?

This seems silly. I read that the CEO will be deciding on the amount of new Senate seats after the 2011 census is this not true?

EDIT- yeah I just read the section, it is in there. Ok but it should be easy for them to get 50% of the population to vote in favor of it. Ontario, AB and BC ccombined have over 50% of Canads population so it should be easy. no?

Nope Alberta and BC have close to 23% of Canada's population and PQ and ON would vote against it and they have 60% of Canadas population. It is almost impossible to add senate seats with out giving them one or two which just puts us back too where we are now. Wont ever happen.

Edit I didn't see you mention Ontario, but as we have seen in the past populations don't vote as a mass and if you get a 70-30 split it would still be hard too pass that thing. Still very hard.

Edited March 7, 2010 by punked

Mr.Canada · March 7, 2010

Nope Alberta and BC have close to 23% of Canada's population and PQ and ON would vote against it and they have 60% of Canadas population. It is almost impossible to add senate seats with out giving them one or two which just puts us back too where we are now. Wont ever happen.

Edit I didn't see you mention Ontario, but as we have seen in the past populations don't vote as a mass and if you get a 70-30 split it would still be hard too pass that thing. Still very hard.

Hrm. I'm surprised at that, Ontario stands to gain 10 Senate seats. Aside from this it seems that the number they have out west is too low. I know many here link the west to Tories which equals evil and bad but it does seem unfair. I don't think anyone could possibly argue that BC and AB are not under represented here no matter what the political leanings of a particular area is.

Edited March 7, 2010 by Mr.Canada

punked · March 7, 2010

Hrm. I'm surprised at that, Ontario stands to gain 10 Senate seats. Aside from this it seems that the number they have out west is too low. I know many here link the west to Tories which equals evil and bad but it does seem unfair. I don't think anyone could possibly argue that BC and AB are not under represented here no matter what the political leanings of a particular area is.

No you can not have more then 113 Senate seats Mr. Canada so you couldn't add 10 seats, the most you can add is 8. Not only that but the Senate is not suppose meant to be Rep by pop, it is even representation by region. I think it is stupid if you are going to go through a fight it wouldn't be for an extra 8 seats it would have too be to get rid of it all together.

Mr.Canada · March 7, 2010

No you can not have more then 113 Senate seats Mr. Canada so you couldn't add 10 seats, the most you can add is 8. Not only that but the Senate is not suppose meant to be Rep by pop, it is even representation by region. I think it is stupid if you are going to go through a fight it wouldn't be for an extra 8 seats it would have too be to get rid of it all together.

Hrm. Why is their a cap of 113? No room for more chairs? So if geographic area determines number of Senators then BC and AB are both quite a bit larger then NS and NB. Why do these provinces get a combined 8 more seats then BC and AB? They are tiny in comparison.

EDIT ok I just read that it was set by the Queen in 1867. So can't we just change this number?

Edited March 7, 2010 by Mr.Canada

punked · March 7, 2010

Hrm. Why is their a cap of 113? No room for more chairs? So if geographic area determines number of Senators then BC and AB are both quite a bit larger then NS and NB. Why do these provinces get a combined 8 more seats then BC and AB? They are tiny in comparison.

EDIT ok I just read that it was set by the Queen in 1867. So can't we just change this number?

As for NS and NB getting more seats you have to remember in a historical context when they joined the country NS was the richest province by far so it had a lot of power. It is a very outdated system governed by outdated rules but the only way too change those rules is too get all the provinces to agree to a change.

Wilber · March 7, 2010

Positive the only time a set number of population added a senate seat was in Manitoba in 1882 under the Manitoba Act which said if your population reaches this amount you will get another Senate seat. All other seats added or taken away have been so through a constitutional amendment, or a constitutional provision. The Constitution also says their will never be more then 113 Senators and there are 105 right now.

Even more reason to dump the Senate. It reflects the reality of the country less and less each year and the worse it gets, the more divisive an influence it will become.

Mr.Canada · March 7, 2010

As for NS and NB getting more seats you have to remember in a historical context when they joined the country NS was the richest province by far so it had a lot of power. It is a very outdated system governed by outdated rules but the only way too change those rules is too get all the provinces to agree to a change.

Hrm, so I guess we're stuck with what we have then.

Peter F · March 7, 2010

I was looking this moreing at the Senate seat divisons and NS and NB have 10 Senate seats each while BC and AB have 6 each. AB and BC have 4 and 5 times the population of the NS and NB but have 4 fewer seats then each of these. Same goes for the population in Ontario, it has also grown.

This seems extremely unfair and was wondering if anyone thinks they shuld add seats to BC and AB?

I am asking this in a non partisan way. I just think it's unfair and needs to be re adjusted. I remeber their was talk of this a while back but nothing seemsed to cxome of it. I'm still searching the net for more info but thought I'd put this here anyhow as discussion seems stagnant atm.

EDIT - Ok I found this. So is this to mean that there will be seats added after the 2011 census at the sole discretion of the Chief Electoral Officer?

EDIT#2- So when these new seats get granted to the respective provinces who gets to choose the people who sit in them? Does the PM get to pick all these seantors or is it decided by the provinces the first time around because they're new seats or how does this work with new Senate seats?

The proposed bill is about adding seats in the House of Commons, not the senate.

Mr.Canada · March 7, 2010

The proposed bill is about adding seats in the House of Commons, not the senate.

Ok, thanks. I misunderstood it then.

Smallc · March 7, 2010

The Senate can be changed only with the agreement of 7 of the 10 provinces holding at least 50% of the population, not just 50% of the population. The Senate should never have seats based on population either. There is an argument for changing it so that each province has an equal number of seats, bur rights now, it's divided on regional lines, and not provincial lines.

eyeball · March 7, 2010

Even more reason to dump the Senate. It reflects the reality of the country less and less each year and the worse it gets, the more divisive an influence it will become.

Is our generation likewise carving things in rock and establishing useless institutions that will bedevil and frustrate our descendents forever and ever...beyond the exhausted ecosystems, national/provincial debts and geopolitical quagmires we're bequeathing them that is?

punked · March 7, 2010

The Senate can be changed only with the agreement of 7 of the 10 provinces holding at least 50% of the population, not just 50% of the population. The Senate should never have seats based on population either. There is an argument for changing it so that each province has an equal number of seats, bur rights now, it's divided on regional lines, and not provincial lines.

That isn't really true they are divided and assigned on provincial lines otherwise the Manitoba act would never have been constitutional. If it was region then the Newfoundland region wouldn't have less seats then the other regions which all get 24 seats accept Newfoundland. It is a provincial thing which are "kinda" broken into regions.

Smallc · March 7, 2010

No, it's a regional thing. Newfoundland is it's own region because it was added later.

punked · March 7, 2010

No, it's a regional thing. Newfoundland is it's own region because it was added later.

But it does not get same the amount of seats as the other regions, and how does the Manitoba act work if it is a regional thing? It doesn't it is a provincial thing, with some hazzy sort of regional break down.

Smallc · March 7, 2010

The seats are divided by provinces, but they're assigned to regions first. Newfoundland didn't need the same number of seats as the other regions.

punked · March 7, 2010

The seats are divided by provinces, but they're assigned to regions first. Newfoundland didn't need the same number of seats as the other regions.

Lets just all agree the Senate doesn't work and move on.

Wilber · March 7, 2010

Is our generation likewise carving things in rock and establishing useless institutions that will bedevil and frustrate our descendents forever and ever...beyond the exhausted ecosystems, national/provincial debts and geopolitical quagmires we're bequeathing them that is?

Possibly but it's bizarre that we can change the ratio of seats in the Commons but not the Senate. All because the powers at the time gave regional status to two provinces but not the rest. Great for them at the time but ultimately very bad for the country. I would imagine Newfoundland's representation in the Senate was part of the deal cut in order for them to join Confederation.

Smallc · March 7, 2010

You know I don't agree on that point. I think it may need reform because people see it as ineffective, but I don't agree that it doesn't work.

Wilber · March 7, 2010

You know I don't agree on that point. I think it may need reform because people see it as ineffective, but I don't agree that it doesn't work.

Depends on how you define "work".

Smallc · March 7, 2010

Look, I've had this debate with both of you. One thing that I think we can all agree on is that if we have the debate again, it isn't going to go anywhere or change any minds.

Wilber · March 7, 2010

Look, I've had this debate with both of you. One thing that I think we can all agree on is that if we have the debate again, it isn't going to go anywhere or change any minds.

I suppose but I also have to question how an institution that represents the demographics of this country less and less every year is not going to be a negative influence on its unity. You might as well.