Islamic radicals 'infiltrate' the Labour Party

[Argus]

Culture is no longer nationally based. That's an old idea now, and an expensive one to resurrect if you want to go that way. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by Canadian culture but I have more in common with a 2nd generation South Asian born here than a British national who has just arrived.

Culture is not violins and art appreciation. Culture is the bedrock value systems and beliefs inherent in a people. Just how different do you imagine your beliefs are from a British national who just arrived?

Many south asians born here to immigrants know and experience so little of Canada that they are a drain on the education system when they arrived at school - unable to speak a word of English. I suspect you put very little thought into your statement.

[Michael Hardner]

Culture is not violins and art appreciation. Culture is the bedrock value systems and beliefs inherent in a people. Just how different do you imagine your beliefs are from a British national who just arrived?

I don't agree with your definition. Value systems aren't even necessarily similar from person to person in a country. What is similar is the fabric of your day-to-day living - the colour, the backdrop of life.

Many south asians born here to immigrants know and experience so little of Canada that they are a drain on the education system when they arrived at school - unable to speak a word of English. I suspect you put very little thought into your statement.

Perhaps, but after 6 months of kindergarten they're already more Canadianized than their parents. And by the time they're in their mid-20s, they enter the workforce - where I meet them, and eventually enjoy a beer with them at the completion of a successful project. That is culture.

[M.Dancer]

Many south asians born here to immigrants know and experience so little of Canada that they are a drain on the education system when they arrived at school - unable to speak a word of English. I suspect you put very little thought into your statement.

During the olympics the TV showed a bar in BC favoured by Punjabi Canadians. The place was packed and ythey were wacthing one of the Canada hockey games....how much more Canadian than that?

[ToadBrother]

During the olympics the TV showed a bar in BC favoured by Punjabi Canadians. The place was packed and ythey were wacthing one of the Canada hockey games....how much more Canadian than that?

It's precisely these sorts of things that do bind a society, regardless of the origin of its members. Hockey is one of those "baubles by which men are lead" that Napoleon once referred to, and yet I think we saw during the Olympics just how powerful certain national symbols are, and how, when expressed with a sense of pride and fair play, they don't devolve into ridiculous and ugly displays of nationalism and jingoism.

When you can have people whose parents and grandparents come from lands and cultures separated by thousands of miles, and they can all mutually and without any kind of formal declaration cheer for their mother or adopted country's sports team, I'd say you have an awfully good example of the kind of common values I'm talking about. I think, sometimes, the politicians and philosophers spend to long concentrating on the BIG IDEAS, without realizing that a society, while it needs big ideas, needs a certain kind of symbolism, even if those symbols are embodied in things as fundamentally unimportant in the great halls of thought as a bunch of guys gliding on the ice with sticks trying to knock a piece of rubber around.

And yet hockey is just that kind of a symbol, it's something that crosses the historical language barrier between English and French Canada. As you point out, it even grabs on to people of other ethnic origins (when I was a kid, one of my best friends was a kid whose parents came from Hong Kong, and the guy was a street hockey fanatic).

Edited March 10, 2010 by ToadBrother

[Bonam]

Guess I don't fit into the definition of "Canadian" since I couldn't care less about hockey...

[M.Dancer]

Guess I don't fit into the definition of "Canadian" since I couldn't care less about hockey...

That is fine....I bet the ladies of curling gets the ol Maple leaf waving on the flag pole!

[Argus]

During the olympics the TV showed a bar in BC favoured by Punjabi Canadians. The place was packed and ythey were wacthing one of the Canada hockey games....how much more Canadian than that?

I suspect the reporter had them turn that on for the video, and they switched it off right after. I haven't met an adult Indian yet who cared half so much about hockey as he did about cricket and soccer. The last time I went to see a Senators game it was a sea of white faces. We even talked about it, using our binoculars trying to find anyone who wasn't white in the crowd. There was an occasional Asian face, but they were awfully rare.

[bloodyminded]

I suspect the reporter had them turn that on for the video, and they switched it off right after.

You "suspect" that a reporter "had [indians] turn that on for the video"....after which they switched it off. Of course, the Indians, being supreme propagandists planning to "revert to form" (as you say elsewhere) at the first opportunity, all went along with the ruse...every one of them. For people who are "backwards" and illiterate, they sure have a deviously sophisticated comprehension of propaganda techniques.

This is quite a rich, if paranoid, fantasy life you're constructing, even over the most benign of circumstances.

Edited March 11, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Bonam]

I suspect the reporter had them turn that on for the video, and they switched it off right after.

I've often agreed with you on topics related to immigration and to Islam, but this statement is just plain silly.

[Michael Hardner]

During the olympics the TV showed a bar in BC favoured by Punjabi Canadians. The place was packed and ythey were wacthing one of the Canada hockey games....how much more Canadian than that?

And let's think about hockey for a second. Here's a fun little link to follow that example:

http://tinyurl.com/hardnerhockey

Jan 1888 - Toronto Daily Mail - Article Entitled "Hockey"

"Last season an attempt was made to introduce the game of hockey to the public of Toronto, but the season was too far advanced...

It would be satisfactory to hear ... that a game equalling lacrosse in interest would be introduced to enliven the pleasures of the winter season in Toronto in athletic circles."

So our national identity symbol was completely unknown in Toronto at the time my grandfather was born, and yet now it is THE symbol of Canada. It unites us, it defines us... etc. etc.

This speaks to the temporary and ephemeral nature of culture. By the time my grandfather came to Toronto from Italy, hockey was a mainstay of our culture but Italians were the awful unspeakable immigrants. His marriage to a woman of Scots-Irish stock was a "mixed marriage" of the time.

Now, a few generations later, Italians, Greeks and Southern Europeans are considered real Canadians by most. There's no reason to believe that Chinese, Indian, Pakistanis, Africans, Russians who have come in the past generation or so won't similarly mix in, around the time that Cricket becomes our national sport.

Also, there's a lawn bowling club across from my apartment. Very Anglo-Saxon and it must have been very exclusive at one time. Now the dwindling membership doesn't play that often, but the average member appears to be about 75 or so.

[M.Dancer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZWxErEbQkY

[DogOnPorch]

Ditto...

[M.Dancer]

[eaglesnester]

This is disturbing, could it be happening in other countries and if so how can we stop it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/labour/7333420/Islamic-radicals-infiltrate-the-Labour-Party.html

Everybody must understand that the muslim religion is not a religion of peace. Everybody thinks that the muslim religion is like all the others, that could not be farther from the truth. In fact it is every muslims duty to kill none believers and to undertake jihad. Duha, none beleivers could be classified as anybody of any other religion that is not muslim. That is just about everybody in Canada, United States, Aus, Germany, and France. Well maybe not France they have a huge population of muslims and a huge problem with them. I believe Holland has stopped all muslim immigration and has outlawed the building of mosques, wearing of the burka, immediate deportation of any muslim arrested for commiting any crime. Muslims do not want to live in peace side by side of other folks, they do not want to enter into usefull dialog, they do not want to live and let live, if you are not a muslim and will not convert the only thing they want to do is kill you. Folks do not understand that not only do they want to kill all none believers but that it is their duty to do so and it helps them to get to paradise.

Cheers & Tighter Groups: Eaglesnester

[Wild Bill]

Everybody must understand that the muslim religion is not a religion of peace. Everybody thinks that the muslim religion is like all the others, that could not be farther from the truth. In fact it is every muslims duty to kill none believers and to undertake jihad. Duha, none beleivers could be classified as anybody of any other religion that is not muslim. That is just about everybody in Canada, United States, Aus, Germany, and France. Well maybe not France they have a huge population of muslims and a huge problem with them. I believe Holland has stopped all muslim immigration and has outlawed the building of mosques, wearing of the burka, immediate deportation of any muslim arrested for commiting any crime. Muslims do not want to live in peace side by side of other folks, they do not want to enter into usefull dialog, they do not want to live and let live, if you are not a muslim and will not convert the only thing they want to do is kill you. Folks do not understand that not only do they want to kill all none believers but that it is their duty to do so and it helps them to get to paradise.

Cheers & Tighter Groups: Eaglesnester

"Every muslim's duty...", how do you know every muslim believes this? Certainly a percentage of them appear to believe this way but "...Every...", isn't that kind of a stretch?

Have you spoken to all of them? Have you evidence of some polling information?

I'm not denying the danger of some fundamentalist Islamists. Even if only 5% of Muslims held such views that represents a huge number of potentially dangerous individuals. Even more dangerous, if that 5% are the ones with guns and bombs.

I just can't see how you can paint ALL Muslims as being intolerant and violent! I've known a number of younger Muslims and they have assimilated very well. Frankly, they would laugh at you for including them in your fears! Older folks tend to be more set in their ways but still, the Muslim culture of a Shia who left Iran in the days of the Shah is vastly different from that of some primitive thug from the holocaust of Sudan or Ruanda.

Have you ever considered that by painting more rational individuals with the same brush as you do with the more primitive and violent you can easily spurn the support of those who are more sane?

[eaglesnester]

"Every muslim's duty...", how do you know every muslim believes this? Certainly a percentage of them appear to believe this way but "...Every...", isn't that kind of a stretch?

Have you spoken to all of them? Have you evidence of some polling information?

I'm not denying the danger of some fundamentalist Islamists. Even if only 5% of Muslims held such views that represents a huge number of potentially dangerous individuals. Even more dangerous, if that 5% are the ones with guns and bombs.

I just can't see how you can paint ALL Muslims as being intolerant and violent! I've known a number of younger Muslims and they have assimilated very well. Frankly, they would laugh at you for including them in your fears! Older folks tend to be more set in their ways but still, the Muslim culture of a Shia who left Iran in the days of the Shah is vastly different from that of some primitive thug from the holocaust of Sudan or Ruanda.

Have you ever considered that by painting more rational individuals with the same brush as you do with the more primitive and violent you can easily spurn the support of those who are more sane?

It is written in the Koran my son. You should read it. This has nothing to do with the way I feel personally or hate, or how high the moon is. All of us must understand and know what the Muslim faith is all about and it is not just a problem with the fundamentalist Islamists, it's every single one of em everywhere in the world. IT IS EVERY MUSLIMS DUTY TO UNDERTAKE JIHAD AND KILL NON BELIEVERS. I can't make it more clear. They are a danger to all of us and they bear careful watching. Edited March 27, 2010 by eaglesnester

[Wild Bill]

It is written in the Koran my son. You should read it. This has nothing to do with the way I feel personally or hate, or how high the moon is. All of us must understand and know what the Muslim faith is all about and it is not just a problem with the fundamentalist Islamists, it's every single one of em everywhere in the world. IT IS EVERY MUSLIMS DUTY TO UNDERTAKE JIHAD AND KILL NON BELIEVERS. I can't make it more clear. They are a danger to all of us and they bear careful watching.

Again, I don't follow your reasoning. You state YOUR interpretation of the Koran! I won't deny there are numbers of Muslims who share your interpretation.

However, how does that mean that EVERY Muslim takes those words in the Koran literally? The Bible makes some pretty far out statements but it is obvious that not EVERY Christian takes them as literal truth!

Are you implying that EVERY Christian takes every word of the Bible as literal truth, the same as every Muslim accepts the Koran?

There are some things about the Canadian Charter of Rights that don't sit well with me but since I am a Canadian does that mean I MUST believe in every word? Or that ALL Canadians DO?

You don't appear to be very logical in your arguments so far.

[Michael Hardner]

It is written in the Koran my son. You should read it. This has nothing to do with the way I feel personally or hate, or ...

It has everything to do with those things, since you are the one interpreting some ancient teachings, and representing them here as facts. You come to this forum expressly to turn people against all Muslims, so why do you say it has nothing to do with how you feel ?

Do you think we're stupid ?

By the way, there are lots of arguments for/against immigration. We've made the best ones here long before you showed up. I would say that I haven't read a convincing argument against the Muslim religion yet, but I will say that I have read arguments that were put together with much more thought than you have put into your post.

[Guest TrueMetis]

It is written in the Koran my son. You should read it. This has nothing to do with the way I feel personally or hate, or how high the moon is. All of us must understand and know what the Muslim faith is all about and it is not just a problem with the fundamentalist Islamists, it's every single one of em everywhere in the world. IT IS EVERY MUSLIMS DUTY TO UNDERTAKE JIHAD AND KILL NON BELIEVERS. I can't make it more clear. They are a danger to all of us and they bear careful watching.

It's written in the bible to kill all non-believers. Yet I don't see Christians killing them. What you don't seem to realize that some Muslims just might understand the the Koran is just a story.

Edited March 27, 2010 by TrueMetis

[bloodyminded]

It's written in the bible to kill all non-believers. Yet I don't see Christians killing them. What you don't seem to realize that some Muslims just might understand the the Koran is just a story.

Right. There's even an exciting scene in the Bible where God orders foreskins to be taken from the enemies after battle.

So, gods tend to be violent douchebags in the stories we invent for them. That doesn't mean such stories need be taken literally by every believer. The same goes for Muslims, who are not a universal pack of murderous fanatics.