$18.68 - $34 flight cost increase

[William Ashley]

44 scanners at an (inflated cost of) $250,000 (they sold for 10's of thousands less) = $11 million

At the lowest rate of 18.68 air canada alone through this tax would raise $616 million --- hmm it seems this tax is raising more than just the cost of providing for security.

I watched CBC calgary today and they explained this cost as 2.50 to 8$ yet the montreal gazette

http://www.montrealgazette.com/travel/Ottawa+eyeing+security+hike+airlines/2550412/story.html

gives a different story....

even at the 8$ or even at $1 air canada alone would pay for the scanners 3 times over - what the heck is this other than blatant lies of cover for a hidden tax!

This money doesn't even take into account the other companies that fly in canada and out of canada.

This tax will raise over a billion dollars for the government each year and it is being pushed as the premise of paying for an $11 million dollar purchase that was created by a CIA spoof project that didn't even involve canada.

How is it that people can support this corrupt conservative government - they are so stupid to accept those lies! Stealing a billion dollars from air travellers on fear mongering.

What the heck isn't working the war in afghanistan will cost less than airport security hikes over the next five years!!! lwtf?

$1.5 Billion in new security measures?

What wasn't working in Canada?

btw 1.5 billion is far less than 5 billion dollars.. ?? where is the other 3.5 billion???

Edited February 26, 2010 by William Ashley

[Alta4ever]

What about the additional cost of operation staff, maintenance, creating more screening lines, the search of all personal articals during the screening, these thing all add up.

Would you be for moving to the smae security procedures the Israelis use, it would be cheaper and reduce airport taxes.

[Smallc]

, it would be cheaper and reduce airport taxes.

I've heard many times from many different experts that the Israeli way wouldn't work here in North America. We have too many airports and some of them are too large.

[Smallc]

44 scanners at an (inflated cost of) $250,000 (they sold for 10's of thousands less) = $11 million

At the lowest rate of 18.68 air canada alone through this tax would raise $616 million

Because the scanners are the only security at the airport.....

[William Ashley]

What about the additional cost of operation staff, maintenance, creating more screening lines, the search of all personal articals during the screening, these thing all add up.

Would you be for moving to the smae security procedures the Israelis use, it would be cheaper and reduce airport taxes.

It is a waste of money - 1. Canada can stop imperialist foreign policy 2. It can do what its been doing for the last 100 years without incidences of security attacks. Also buying equipment at a 1/3rd price markup is just bad procurement and I would never let someone who paid 50k more per unit handle a 1.5 billion dollar upgrade.

I don't think Canada has air security issues. Let the airlines manage their own security, let customs handle goods coming into the country - any attack will not be thwarted if it is organized because it will originate in a foreign country anyway.

So no although I think Customs and RCMP should be integrated units in national defence - I don't think Canada has the issues that require increased security at airports. Any criminal issues (which arn't terrorist) or minor security lapses are due to improper workplace regulation and oversight.. having security gaurds monitor things ain't a bad start but police and security are already at airports. So what is the deal -- it is just a lot of wasted technology that will be outdated in a year or two anyway.

There is overlap they already have camera's at entry points, rail systems feeding into the airports have video surveillance - you won't get improved screening of marked effect. while a computer program that can analyze video won't hurt if it isn't there already - fact is it shouldn't cost more than $10,000 and the security scanners being optional are a complete waste of money.

Personally I think US air security is a US air security issues, short of norad. If Canada is suddently the terrorism threat I think the US needs to look at all the other countries, fact is Canada is wasting its money on these systems, and $1.5 billion will be wasted money that didn't need to be spent, but likely goes into the pockets of the CPC's conservatives allies as another form of embezzlement. I wasn't pleased with the 11 million spent I sure as hell won't be ok with the 1.5 billion of unneeded spending - spending money you don't have is bad government, raising taxes to the people for unneeded spending is worse government. CPC is being wasteful and criminal with the purchases.

Edited February 26, 2010 by William Ashley

[Alta4ever]

It is a waste of money - 1. Canada can stop imperialist foreign policy 2. It can do what its been doing for the last 100 years without incidences of security attacks. Also buying equipment at a 1/3rd price markup is just bad procurement and I would never let someone who paid 50k more per unit handle a 1.5 billion dollar upgrade.

If we don't have a security level of what the US government asks for on our international flights they will not allow us to fly into the US.

[Alta4ever]

I don't think Canada has air security issues. Let the airlines manage their own security, let customs handle goods coming into the country - any attack will not be thwarted if it is organized because it will originate in a foreign country anyway.

That is the basic make up of the Israel system.

[William Ashley]

Because the scanners are the only security at the airport.....

There is already 17$ per flight or so dollars in taxes for that.

air taxes are more than flight costs in canada for destinations in north america.

Edited February 26, 2010 by William Ashley

[Alta4ever]

There is already 17$ per flight or so dollars in taxes for that.

air taxes are more than flight costs in canada for destinations in north america.

So what are you proposing, privatizing the Airports?

Edited February 26, 2010 by Alta4ever

[Smallc]

So what are you proposing, privatizing the Airports?

Most of them already are.

[Alta4ever]

That is a ideologically conservative position, I am surprised that William would be insinuating that this model be used.

[Wilber]

Just another cost that will drive more Canadians across the border to fly on American carriers. Our government seems intent on driving our industry out of business.

[Smallc]

Just another cost that will drive more Canadians across the border to fly on American carriers. Our government seems intent on driving our industry out of business.

I doubt this will make the difference for the vast majority of people who aren't crossing the border. The interesting thing is that on flights to the US from Canada, most of the taxes are American.

[Smallc]

This is for a flight from Toronto to New York costing $226 before tax:

Taxes, Fees and Charges

Canada Airport Improvement Fee 25.00

U.S.A Transportation Tax 33.56

U.S Agriculture Fee 5.21

Air Travellers Security Charge (ATSC) 7.94

U.S Passenger Facility Charge 4.69

Canada Goods and Services Tax 13.70

September 11 Security Fee 2.61

U.S.A Immigration User Fee 7.29

Edited February 26, 2010 by Smallc

[William Ashley]

If we don't have a security level of what the US government asks for on our international flights they will not allow us to fly into the US.

Doubtful.

I would put 250$ down that the US wouldn't yank its airlines flights if we had drug dealers searching peoples bags...

Why is it that US flights are all atleast 30% cheaper than Canadian company flights - it is a non competitive market place because US companies don't have the 250$ plus in taxes.

hell if al qaeda was handling luggage packing they wouldn't stop flights to canada permanently.

and who the hell cares if flights to the US are stopped loss of income for them.. we still have planes coming here they'd just be going home empty.

If they let our trains in they should bloodywell let our planes in and automobiles.

There is a reasonable level of security and there is paranoia - 1.5 billion in upgrades is going into the paranoia realm and well beyond the can I check your luggage.

let people go home by rail if the US is so paranoid of its crack and cocaine addictions that equal level of security for rail and air arn't acceptable.

it is a waste of money and spurned by irrational paranoia caused by a freak occurrence due to total US lapse in stopping something from occurring. Canadians wallets should not be punished because of US stupidity or more PC counter self-intelligence.

If my ticket for canadian flights has 250$ more than US flights that is not only a cost issue but a competition issue. Why are US airline company flights all alteast 200$ cheaper?

also why the heck are these costs so much more.. these security charges arn't just being applied to US flights.. they are being applied to ALL FLIGHTS!!! I can't even fly to the US without preclearance or arrest (that is being authorized by US CBP in canada before even flying) it is frustrating other flight prices are going up because of measures put in place so said because of US demands. Although I blame the transport minister and Stephen Harper and his CPC government for the idiocy on how this is being applied, total money grab and move towards more totalitarian and police state state, why punish fliers to other countries for US security requirements being imposed on canada? and other than the 11 million which could be covered by a 20 cent 1 year surcharge was the only requirement I've seen ever stated.. where the hell does this 300-1200% security rate increase come from-- sounds more like they want to buy toys that arn't required, and make flying more expensive --- when taxes cost more than flights it is too taxed!

They better get 1.5 billion worth of terrorists caught with this ... 5:1 has nothing to do with anything other than shutting down liberal leaning drug trade in toronto, montreal and vancuover.

It emotively sickens me that parliament is accepting rubbish like this. Some measures are meaningful but this is way over the top in the wrong way making a mountain of an anthill.

While I do favour industry specific needs and usage taxes rather than everyone pays for what you may or may not use- I would like it to be "essential needs" I have seen nothing demonstrated in Canada that security costs need to increase by 50% current spending. It is more a matter of how much it is going up and how much is being spent - these security costs 1 billion for vancouver 1.5 billion for airports.. just seems like way to much spending when there are no existing security threat or past threats in Canada.

This only appears to be safety for other countries.. while this isnt bad - why are we paying for other countries security if - well they don't have the same measures in place - it seems sorta redundant if security threats can exist from other countries coming into canada? IT IS SO WASTEFUL AND ANTI CANADIAN. punishing people in canada with taxes that won't see any domestic benefit. Have them pay for it, it is their security, and their security requirements. Their airlines are flying here. Who the hell cares if the US boycotts Canadian flights we can see the land borders work just fine, we have land access to the US it will only hurt us airlines with connecting flights. If the US government is too stubborn to pay for their own security then they are being stupid as it is more of an economic loss to them.

The Conservative Canadian government is being stupid and taking the wrong approaches. What an idiotic plan, more drain from the economy for next years junk. More slush funding sources for Tory *ehm* conservative embezzlement. since they are republican anti monarchists they really ought to not be called tories.

I'm someone for meaningful security but I am somewhat egalitarian that I think social responsibilty ought to be a social mechanism because a police state is never a good place to live for a minority and it discourages democracy and reasonble government when totalitrainaism and deprivation of rights and economic classism constrains social rights and turns them into priveleges of the party and suporters of the draconic force of oligrachtic rule governing for partisan gains rather than public benefit. I believe in benevolent government not totalitarian police elitism. Monitoring peoples movement depriving people their rights because of untried beleif of agents of the police state - even without judicial ruling or breach of law - things like this are just disturbing for me because I support a free society - and when I see government moving away from a free society and a democratic society it disturbs me due to history and the abuses people have suffered for what few rights citizens actually have - and how fewer they have when economic constraints are enforced. I see paranoia and abuse - and because I've been a victim of favor over law before, and I've been victimized by the government before extrajudicially when the government is empowered more so to exercise that type of behaviour - and that above it has me feel society is loosing something, I've suffered it isn't something that bothers me on an internal level because I know it already exists but its growth is something that I feel, I hear and see more often effects a larger portion of society, and them experiencing what I experienced is unfortunate because it is dehumanizing - and capacitating humanization of society is a loss to society. Innocent people need not be victimized for lawful belief or practice, their rights need not be deprived for lawful actions. Supporting the further growth of the police state in Canada is not benefiting Canada, and it isn't benefiting humanity. It is a form of cancer.

Edited February 26, 2010 by William Ashley

[Wilber]

This is for a flight from Toronto to New York costing $226 before tax:

Taxes, Fees and Charges

Canada Airport Improvement Fee 25.00

U.S.A Transportation Tax 33.56

U.S Agriculture Fee 5.21

Air Travellers Security Charge (ATSC) 7.94

U.S Passenger Facility Charge 4.69

Canada Goods and Services Tax 13.70

September 11 Security Fee 2.61

U.S.A Immigration User Fee 7.29

You forgot Nav Canada fees. Also, some of those US fees don't apply to flights originating out of the US.

[Smallc]

You forgot Nav Canada fees. Also, some of those US fees don't apply to flights originating out of the US.

I didn't forget anything. That's a real breakdown from aircanada.com on a ticket from Toronto to New York and back.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Smallc

[Wilber]

I didn't forget anything. That's a real breakdown from aircanada.com on a ticket from Toronto to New York and back.

You need to compare it to a flight from Buffalo to New York and back. Also you need to compare overseas flights. You also don't take into account differences in fuel taxes, landing fees and other taxes and fees that don't show up as part of the ticket price.

[Smallc]

You need to compare it to a flight from Buffalo to New York and back. Also you need to compare overseas flights. You also don't take into account differences in fuel taxes, landing fees and other taxes and fees that don't show up as part of the ticket price.

Things like landing fees have nothing to do with the government. I don't think you want me to compare that though. An AA flight from Buffalo to NY is over $600 return. I realize that in general flights are cheaper in the US, but it isn't all the government, and at times it is necessary. It is because of US security requirements that this fee increase is being put in place.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Smallc

[William Ashley]

There is no rational or reasonable reason why Canada should have the second most expensive flight fees in the world after the netherlands!

The US has lower fees than Canada... why is Canada upping fees so much for unneeded measures?

It is an irresponsible tax.

1. the security units were bought for far more than they were being sold for (by 10's of thousands more) the 11 Million "met the security requirements.

2. This tax will raise hundreds of millions of dollars each year but the security budget is being increased by only 1.5 billion over 5 years or 300 million per year. This tax will thus raise more money than is being spend on security - and it is a "security tax"

3. Even in the event it is a US requirement the tax is being charged to domestic flights and international flights not flying to the US.

Rationality - the government and transport minister have increased this tax dramatically higher than required. There are no "security requirements Canada is not meeting, and saying it is the US is just spin. The result is that the Canadian air industry will be less competitive and people will fly on US carriers rather than Canadian carriers resulting in a loss of revenue for Canadians and Canadian companies. End result, This is a bad and irrational tax.

Doubtful.

I would put 250$ down that the US wouldn't yank its airlines flights if we had drug dealers searching peoples bags...

Why is it that US flights are all atleast 30% cheaper than Canadian company flights - it is a non competitive market place because US companies don't have the 250$ plus in taxes.

hell if al qaeda was handling luggage packing they wouldn't stop flights to canada permanently.

and who the hell cares if flights to the US are stopped loss of income for them.. we still have planes coming here they'd just be going home empty.

If they let our trains in they should bloodywell let our planes in and automobiles.

There is a reasonable level of security and there is paranoia - 1.5 billion in upgrades is going into the paranoia realm and well beyond the can I check your luggage.

let people go home by rail if the US is so paranoid of its crack and cocaine addictions that equal level of security for rail and air arn't acceptable.

it is a waste of money and spurned by irrational paranoia caused by a freak occurrence due to total US lapse in stopping something from occurring. Canadians wallets should not be punished because of US stupidity or more PC counter self-intelligence.

If my ticket for canadian flights has 250$ more than US flights that is not only a cost issue but a competition issue. Why are US airline company flights all alteast 200$ cheaper?

also why the heck are these costs so much more.. these security charges arn't just being applied to US flights.. they are being applied to ALL FLIGHTS!!! I can't even fly to the US without preclearance or arrest (that is being authorized by US CBP in canada before even flying) it is frustrating other flight prices are going up because of measures put in place so said because of US demands. Although I blame the transport minister and Stephen Harper and his CPC government for the idiocy on how this is being applied, total money grab and move towards more totalitarian and police state state, why punish fliers to other countries for US security requirements being imposed on canada? and other than the 11 million which could be covered by a 20 cent 1 year surcharge was the only requirement I've seen ever stated.. where the hell does this 300-1200% security rate increase come from-- sounds more like they want to buy toys that arn't required, and make flying more expensive --- when taxes cost more than flights it is too taxed!

They better get 1.5 billion worth of terrorists caught with this ... 5:1 has nothing to do with anything other than shutting down liberal leaning drug trade in toronto, montreal and vancuover.

It emotively sickens me that parliament is accepting rubbish like this. Some measures are meaningful but this is way over the top in the wrong way making a mountain of an anthill.

While I do favour industry specific needs and usage taxes rather than everyone pays for what you may or may not use- I would like it to be "essential needs" I have seen nothing demonstrated in Canada that security costs need to increase by 50% current spending. It is more a matter of how much it is going up and how much is being spent - these security costs 1 billion for vancouver 1.5 billion for airports.. just seems like way to much spending when there are no existing security threat or past threats in Canada.

This only appears to be safety for other countries.. while this isnt bad - why are we paying for other countries security if - well they don't have the same measures in place - it seems sorta redundant if security threats can exist from other countries coming into canada? IT IS SO WASTEFUL AND ANTI CANADIAN. punishing people in canada with taxes that won't see any domestic benefit. Have them pay for it, it is their security, and their security requirements. Their airlines are flying here. Who the hell cares if the US boycotts Canadian flights we can see the land borders work just fine, we have land access to the US it will only hurt us airlines with connecting flights. If the US government is too stubborn to pay for their own security then they are being stupid as it is more of an economic loss to them.

The Conservative Canadian government is being stupid and taking the wrong approaches. What an idiotic plan, more drain from the economy for next years junk. More slush funding sources for Tory *ehm* conservative embezzlement. since they are republican anti monarchists they really ought to not be called tories.

I'm someone for meaningful security but I am somewhat egalitarian that I think social responsibilty ought to be a social mechanism because a police state is never a good place to live for a minority and it discourages democracy and reasonble government when totalitrainaism and deprivation of rights and economic classism constrains social rights and turns them into priveleges of the party and suporters of the draconic force of oligrachtic rule governing for partisan gains rather than public benefit. I believe in benevolent government not totalitarian police elitism. Monitoring peoples movement depriving people their rights because of untried beleif of agents of the police state - even without judicial ruling or breach of law - things like this are just disturbing for me because I support a free society - and when I see government moving away from a free society and a democratic society it disturbs me due to history and the abuses people have suffered for what few rights citizens actually have - and how fewer they have when economic constraints are enforced. I see paranoia and abuse - and because I've been a victim of favor over law before, and I've been victimized by the government before extrajudicially when the government is empowered more so to exercise that type of behaviour - and that above it has me feel society is loosing something, I've suffered it isn't something that bothers me on an internal level because I know it already exists but its growth is something that I feel, I hear and see more often effects a larger portion of society, and them experiencing what I experienced is unfortunate because it is dehumanizing - and capacitating humanization of society is a loss to society. Innocent people need not be victimized for lawful belief or practice, their rights need not be deprived for lawful actions. Supporting the further growth of the police state in Canada is not benefiting Canada, and it isn't benefiting humanity. It is a form of cancer.

Edited February 26, 2010 by William Ashley

[ToadBrother]

There is no rational or reasonable reason why Canada should have the second most expensive flight fees in the world after the netherlands!

Of course there is a reason. The Feds need money. They don't want to raise broader taxes like income taxes or consumption taxes, so they'll start, as cash-strapped governments throughout history have done, by targeting these sorts of services (taxing the borders is probably as old as taxes).

Just wait until they raise parking fees at National Parks. That should be coming soon.

Edited February 26, 2010 by ToadBrother

[Topaz]

I remember Baird being on with Craig Oliver and he asked Baird how were they going to pay for them and Baird said, "Oh, we have money set aside for this". I guess they didn't but hey this is NOT a tax, its a user's fee and when the budget come sout next week don't be surprised if its the new trend for this government to raisde money...no new taxes but USER"S FEES!!!!! http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2010/02/25/baird-higher-fees.html

[ToadBrother]

I remember Baird being on with Craig Oliver and he asked Baird how were they going to pay for them and Baird said, "Oh, we have money set aside for this". I guess they didn't but hey this is NOT a tax, its a user's fee and when the budget come sout next week don't be surprised if its the new trend for this government to raisde money...no new taxes but USER"S FEES!!!!! http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2010/02/25/baird-higher-fees.html

I remember when the BC Liberals took over in 2001. They'd campaigned on a promise of no new taxes, and the next you think you know, everything from Medicare premiums to transit fees jumped up. "Oh, those are user fees!"

If I could write one extra clause in the Constitution, it would require the phrase "user fees" be banished on pain of very horrible death.

[William Ashley]

Of course there is a reason. The Feds need money. They don't want to raise broader taxes like income taxes or consumption taxes, so they'll start, as cash-strapped governments throughout history have done, by targeting these sorts of services (taxing the borders is probably as old as taxes).

Just wait until they raise parking fees at National Parks. That should be coming soon.

But they are lying about it, constantly lying about it. Also the "use fee" is more than what the user is getting for it. It is punitive taxation, and the spending is unneeded and not applicable to any requirements that exist.

Also raising fees is indirect taxation without representation. They announced this before even seeing if it was accepted via a budget vote.

Edited February 26, 2010 by William Ashley

[Oleg Bach]

I bet that the scanners are made or contracted out to corporations that are not Canadian. Terrorism is now a flouishing industry for the west..much like war would artifically boost and economy- terrorism products benefit only a few finacially- much like weapons sales..same old same old crap - and the consumer is forced to consume while the shrewd opportunists justify their enrichment with our fear... a fear induced more by our profit takers than actual terrorists.