Biggest Miscalculation In Modern Political History.

[Shady]

This was a case where I think the White House people could see, look at the president, the White House and congressional Democrats as sort of checking the box on stimulus, but found that kind of boring, and moved on to health care and cap-and-trade. And the thing is, Democrats piled all this cotton candy and pork and junk and pet projects into it, so it discredited the stimulus package in the minds of a lot of voters and at the same time, it wasn't big enough. It was totally insufficient, yet they wanted to keep it under a trillion dollars because they didn't want to spend a lot of political capital on a really big stimulus package because they wanted to save it for cap-and-trade and health care. And so we start off with the original sin of a very imperfect and inadequate economic stimulus package and then moving off the economy almost entirely going into cap-and-trade and health care.

And then when unemployment numbers started proving to be much, much tougher and it started becoming more clear that the stimulus package hadn't worked properly, they just kept plowing ahead on health care. And this isn't a communications problem. This is a reality problem. And I think they just made some grave miscalculations and as it became more clear that they had screwed up, they just kept doubling down their bet.

And so I think, no, this is one of the biggest miscalculations that we've seen in modern political history.

http://insiderinterviews.nationaljournal.com/2010/02/cook-health-care-is-obamas-ira.php

What does Obama do now???

[Michael Hardner]

He should include Tort Reform in the Healthcare bill, as well as the public option, screw the lawyers and strike a new deal.

[Oleg Bach]

He should include Tort Reform in the Healthcare bill, as well as the public option, screw the lawyers and strike a new deal.

Jubalee - simply start fresh like they use to do every 50 years - cancel and forgive all debts..as we hear about accumulating interest on national borrowing, I can't help but think, who are these lenders who are screwing the world with a debt that can never be paid? Can't we simply tell them to F off? AND those lawyers - people pay them to much respect - they are not law nor are they law enforcers...fire them all.

[Who's Doing What?]

Jubalee - simply start fresh like they use to do every 50 years - cancel and forgive all debts..as we hear about accumulating interest on national borrowing, I can't help but think, who are these lenders who are screwing the world with a debt that can never be paid? Can't we simply tell them to F off? AND those lawyers - people pay them to much respect - they are not law nor are they law enforcers...fire them all.

Man you are on fire lately.

Where is the money? Money is such a mundane concept.

How about a can of Coke for every kid in the world?

[punked]

He should include Tort Reform in the Healthcare bill, as well as the public option, screw the lawyers and strike a new deal.

Tort Reform is in the bill.

[Shady]

Tort Reform is in the bill.

But it's just token tort reform.

[Bugs]

Personally, I think Obama is done, politically. He knows more than we know, certainly, and he has any advisor he wants available to him. He must know that the stimulus has failed, simply because there are another 2.5 million people out of work. The Democrats have been reduced to putting out-and-out lies supporting their figures -- showing money going to non-existent Congressional Districts, and addresses to zip codes that didn't exist. This doesn't happen by accident.

It's political bankruptcy. They don't have good numbers, so they'll make them up. And they aren't even good at it. It's Chicago style.

Similarly, I don't think anyone can trust the stock market. Thin trading, low volumes ... what keeps that S&P thing up there? Who's buying, at these prices, with these prospects? With Greece going bankrupt, etc. how can the stock market be going up? Yet, it's effective. They are selling the idea that this is a 'recovery' ... and that the recession is over. If the market were sagging below 1,000 (S&P), it'd seem like a bigger stretch as a 'jobless recovery'.

That's why I think this is a very dangerous time. Government will go to extremes to deceive. The Opposition is stubborn, and will go to extremes to stand in its way. Meanwhile, the Tea Party people are becoming the active element in the population. It holds a hammer over the heads of both parties, even the Republicans.

So far, it has been civil. Believe me, the emotion has only started. You can feel it, already, with every new revelation about Goldman Sachs. Joe Stack's suicide note is the extreme of how people are feeling. Obama is now openly jeered, and all the stuff about a 'transcendental leader' is an unpleasant memory for a lot of voters. Even the media coverage is split, with Fox and the bloggers lining up against the old networks. Things are getting more bitter, month by month.

When the homes start actually being foreclosed, when the benefits start to be cut -- Medicare and social security almost essential targets -- when the taxes start being imposed ... all of which looms ... the rage will start to grow.

The problem, for Obama, is that the government is stuck with the choices it made in its first days. They chose to save the banks, and sacrifice the American people. The bankers are emerging as the main enablers of this disaster, and Obama is rewarding them, even as the people who did everything right are suffering. Can they stop bailing out now? Well, the restraint is, as it so often is ... the bond market.

Government is paralysed, gridlocked, and adrift. The country is going to governed by executive order. The bond market is starting to grow restive. It will demand to be compensated for the increased risks. With every significant notch up in interest rates, the leaky ship of the Obama government comes closer to foundering.

My own view? His strategy has already failed, it just isn't apparent yet. The whole world is entering a dangerous period. One of the things that they don't tell you is that many of the great dictators of history have come to power to stop a currency crisis, and they get support by creating new, gold-backed currencies. Napoleon came to power that way, and some say Hitler did too. But before that, there is a lag ... a period like we're entering, a period of stagnation and drift.

[punked]

Personally, I think Obama is done, politically. He knows more than we know, certainly, and he has any advisor he wants available to him. He must know that the stimulus has failed, simply because there are another 2.5 million people out of work. The Democrats have been reduced to putting out-and-out lies supporting their figures -- showing money going to non-existent Congressional Districts, and addresses to zip codes that didn't exist. This doesn't happen by accident.

It's political bankruptcy. They don't have good numbers, so they'll make them up. And they aren't even good at it. It's Chicago style.

Similarly, I don't think anyone can trust the stock market. Thin trading, low volumes ... what keeps that S&P thing up there? Who's buying, at these prices, with these prospects? With Greece going bankrupt, etc. how can the stock market be going up? Yet, it's effective. They are selling the idea that this is a 'recovery' ... and that the recession is over. If the market were sagging below 1,000 (S&P), it'd seem like a bigger stretch as a 'jobless recovery'.

That's why I think this is a very dangerous time. Government will go to extremes to deceive. The Opposition is stubborn, and will go to extremes to stand in its way. Meanwhile, the Tea Party people are becoming the active element in the population. It holds a hammer over the heads of both parties, even the Republicans.

So far, it has been civil. Believe me, the emotion has only started. You can feel it, already, with every new revelation about Goldman Sachs. Joe Stack's suicide note is the extreme of how people are feeling. Obama is now openly jeered, and all the stuff about a 'transcendental leader' is an unpleasant memory for a lot of voters. Even the media coverage is split, with Fox and the bloggers lining up against the old networks. Things are getting more bitter, month by month.

When the homes start actually being foreclosed, when the benefits start to be cut -- Medicare and social security almost essential targets -- when the taxes start being imposed ... all of which looms ... the rage will start to grow.

The problem, for Obama, is that the government is stuck with the choices it made in its first days. They chose to save the banks, and sacrifice the American people. The bankers are emerging as the main enablers of this disaster, and Obama is rewarding them, even as the people who did everything right are suffering. Can they stop bailing out now? Well, the restraint is, as it so often is ... the bond market.

Government is paralysed, gridlocked, and adrift. The country is going to governed by executive order. The bond market is starting to grow restive. It will demand to be compensated for the increased risks. With every significant notch up in interest rates, the leaky ship of the Obama government comes closer to foundering.

My own view? His strategy has already failed, it just isn't apparent yet. The whole world is entering a dangerous period. One of the things that they don't tell you is that many of the great dictators of history have come to power to stop a currency crisis, and they get support by creating new, gold-backed currencies. Napoleon came to power that way, and some say Hitler did too. But before that, there is a lag ... a period like we're entering, a period of stagnation and drift.

Nice another bunch of talking points most of which are lies, great keep fooling yourself.

[Shady]

Tort Reform is in the bill.

Oh, and which bill are you talking about? There's three of them. Maybe four. That's also part of the problem.

[punked]

Oh, and which bill are you talking about? There's three of them. Maybe four. That's also part of the problem.

It happens to be in all of them if you read them, even though the CBO says tourt reform will do nothing to bring down costs. They actually gave republicans what they wanted and they just pretended it wasn't there.

[Shady]

even though the CBO says tourt reform will do nothing to bring down costs.

That might be the lie of the year, and it's only February! Do you know the astronomically high medical malpractice insurance that every docotor needs to purchase in order to practice medicine every year? Do you know how high their premiums have skyrocketed over the last several years? Because of ambulance chasers like a-hole creep John Edwards, and his ilk. And you sit there and try to say that tort reform won't do anything to bring down costs? Please. The CBO says it will. I think you need to re-check your CBO references.

[punked]

That might be the lie of the year, and it's only February! Do you know the astronomically high medical malpractice insurance that every docotor needs to purchase in order to practice medicine every year? Do you know how high their premiums have skyrocketed over the last several years? Because of ambulance chasers like a-hole creep John Edwards, and his ilk. And you sit there and try to say that tort reform won't do anything to bring down costs? Please. The CBO says it will. I think you need to re-check your CBO references.

CBO: Tort Reform Would Cut Health Spending by 0.5%

A whole .5% of costs you say Shady? WOW REPUBLICANS REALLY GETTING TOO THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM.

http://washingtonindependent.com/63471/cbo-tort-reform-would-cut-health-spending-by-0-2

See that Shady unlike you when someone calls me a liar I post a source. Maybe because my lies are just the truth unlike the Republican talking points which come out of you, which are lies.

Edited February 20, 2010 by punked

[punked]

Shady are you Senator John Cornyn?

http://i.imgur.com/41k61.png

Hahahaha owned!!

[Shady]

Hahahaha owned!!

Yes, you were owned. First you said that tort reform wouldn't do anything to bring down costs. Then, in your next post, you cite a CBO study which says that it would actually save $41 billion dollars in costs, and $54 billion dollars on the deficit. So yes, you were definitely owned, by yourself!

Also, here's what the CBO has to say about Obama's latest and newest healthcare proposal...

This morning the Obama Administration released a description of its health care proposal, and CBO has already received several requests to provide a cost estimate for that proposal.

preparing a cost estimate requires very detailed specifications of numerous provisions, and the materials that were released this morning do not provide sufficient detail on all of the provisions. Therefore, CBO cannot provide a cost estimate for the proposal

http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=473

Looks like more shenanigans from the White House. :angry:

[punked]

Yes, you were owned. First you said that tort reform wouldn't do anything to bring down costs. Then, in your next post, you cite a CBO study which says that it would actually save $41 billion dollars in costs, and $54 billion dollars on the deficit. So yes, you were definitely owned, by yourself!

Also, here's what the CBO has to say about Obama's latest and newest healthcare proposal...

Looks like more shenanigans from the White House. :angry:

Yep the CBO said it would bring costs down by .5%, tell that too someone with a 20,000 bill for having a child. They get too save a whole 100 bucks because Republicans are fighting on their side. I am sure they will laugh in your face Shady as I do. Stop with your problem solving that will do nothing a drop in the bucket is nothing, with the raise in rates and inflation. Fix the system, with real solutions. AND TORT REFORM IS THE BILL TOO SHADY EVEN THOUGH IT WILL DO NOTHING. Saving people 50 dollars for every 10,000 you spend is what Shady calls a fix.

That is right Shady Obama has put out an outline of what he wants in the bill BUT THE CONSTITUTION says that money bills are Congresses to handle. I know you like the the constitution when it is a good talking point but there is more calling you on your bullcrap. Again laughing at you Shady and your terrible talking points.

OWNED

Edited February 23, 2010 by punked

[Shady]

This is from the liberal leaning New Republic, hardly a bastion of conservatism...

While malpractice may not be a major factor in rising health care costs, the system is clearly broken. It forces doctors to operate under a cloud of suspicion, without necessarily punishing those physicians who are truly negligent. It encourages the use of tests and treatments that are frivolous, if not downright harmful. And it leaves the vast majority of people who need compensation for medical errors with no easy way to get it.

The New Republic

If anyone is TRUELY interested in REAL healthcare reform, this needs to be addressed in a meaningful way, not by token legislation that only scratches the surface. And what isn't calculated in any CBO costs, is the amount of doctors that leave practicing medicine because of the high costs of malpracice insurance.

This from CNN in 2008...

To manage their daily work schedules, many survey respondents reported making changes. With lower reimbursement from insurance companies and the cost of malpractice insurance skyrocketing, these health professionals say it's not worth running a practice and are changing careers. Others say they're going into so-called boutique medicine, in which they charge patients a yearly fee up front and don't take insurance

CNN

This type of things isn't and can't really be calculated in the CBO numbers. So anyone who claims that tort reform wouldn't have any significant impact doesn't really know what they're talking about. They're just spouting talking points of the trial lawyer lobbyists and special interest groups.

[punked]

So now that you see that the CBO has said it wont do anything you say it impossible to calculate. Enough Shady Republicans have been wrong on reform and they only put these ideas out to distract. Enough Dems have been trying to change and reform the system for 20 years, we can see their efforts, I haven't heard crap from Republicans until the Dems start to talk about. You aren't fooling anyone, no one thinks the Republicans want Tort reform or any other type of reform we just have to look at their record too see that.

[Bonam]

If they wanted real health reform they'd do throw the 2,000 page bill in the fire and write a 1 page bill.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Bonam

[bloodyminded]

Are one-page bills common? Are there any? I'm genuinely asking.

Edited February 24, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Bonam]

Are one-page bills common? Are there any? I'm genuinely asking.

I doubt it. My point was that they are getting way too bogged down in thousands of pages of tiny little details, which outline nonsense exceptions, regulations within regulations, etc. The constitution itself was just a few pages, like 15 or 16 or so, and it seemed to have enough information to serve as the basis for the functioning of an entire nation. It was useful because people could read it and understand it. But these health bills? How many people have actually read them?

It's just nonsense to have bills in the thousands of pages. The law should be something clear, concise, and easily understood, laying down basic principles.

[punked]

If they wanted real health reform they'd do throw the 2,000 page bill in the fire and write a 1 page bill.

Seems like you missed the Memo. The new GOP talking point is the bill is too short. Wow are you off on your crazy right wing messaging today. Better keep the GOP changes their talking points daily to flip and flop and contradict if you miss a day you might look silly like you do today.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/02/boehner-obamas-health-care-proposal-is-too-short.php

[Bonam]

I don't particularly care what the GOP's talking points of the day are. Unfortunately, neither the Democrat nor Republican positions agree very well with mine.