The WORD OF GOD

[Guest TrueMetis]

I don't think that is what she meant. I think she meant the Bible From Genesis to Revelations is a coherent epic. The Bible is allegorical perhaps with true events mixed in there somewhere. Nonetheless it is a tale of sorts.

Except in order for it not to contradict itself or known scientific fact you have to arbitrarily decide what is allegorical and what is not.

[ToadBrother]

Except in order for it not to contradict itself or known scientific fact you have to arbitrarily decide what is allegorical and what is not.

I think there are theological systems, like those of the Catholic and Orthodox churches that can do that without being overtly arbitrary. I certainly don't agree with them, but certainly St. Augustine's treatises on proper and improper interpretation of Scripture still, by and large, factor heavily in these churches' theological premises. Generally, the Church's point of view has been that on matters that do not constitute matters of salvation, variant interpretations do not necessarily constitute flaws or obstacles. In short, it's okay to accept the Earth is 4.5 billion years old or that there may not have been a literal Exodus by the Israelites from Egypt to the Promised Land. However, asserting that Jesus was not the product of a virgin birth does constitute an undermining of the Christian notions of salvation, and thus cannot be questioned.

Like I said, I don't agree with any of it, but there is a sort of self-consistent logic about how to approach Biblical interpretation. The problem for a lot of the post-reformation Protestant traditions is that they basically through the baby out with the bathwater. From there they basically had to create brand new theologies, and either lacking talent or the time, they simply fell into at least partial heresies (ie. Sola Scriptura, leading essentially to Bibliolatry).

I think part of the success of Catholicism has been its way to essentially duck out of such debates by not insisting on Sola Scriptura, or that the Bible alone, is the path to truth and salvation. By leaving open, much as Judaism had done before it, theological and dogmatic positions to encompassing a wider tradition than just what starts at Genesis 1:1 and ends at Revelations 22:20, it allows them to kind of get around modern issues like evolutionary biology, cosmology and so forth.

[whowhere]

Except in order for it not to contradict itself or known scientific fact you have to arbitrarily decide what is allegorical and what is not.

And what is scientific fact? The world according to your understanding? The bible is like a nuclear weapon. Very few are able to develop the understanding to construct and build one. The Bible was constructed in the 16th century before mass publishing, media, and television. This contruction was an endeavor between acutely holy people the masorectic Jews and English Scholers of England. Belittle the book all you want, it changes nothing. Regardless of its content. The crafters, the masoretic jews and the English Scholars did a remarkable job.

[cybercoma]

the Bible From Genesis to Revelations is a coherent epic.

Have you ever read the Bible?

[Guest TrueMetis]

And what is scientific fact? The world according to your understanding? The bible is like a nuclear weapon. Very few are able to develop the understanding to construct and build one. The Bible was constructed in the 16th century before mass publishing, media, and television. This contruction was an endeavor between acutely holy people the masorectic Jews and English Scholers of England. Belittle the book all you want, it changes nothing. Regardless of its content. The crafters, the masoretic jews and the English Scholars did a remarkable job.

How about basic suff like whales aren't fish and you can't surivie inside one? How about it is impossible for the population of all animals to hvae been reduced to 2 specimens because of the population bottleneck.

And what's this crap about the bible being constructed in the 16th century? If your talking about the KJV you should know that it is filled with mistranslations.

[scorpio]

Nonetheless it is a tale of sorts.

I think that would be tall tale.

[cybercoma]

That his/her point has to be qualified with "of sorts" clearly indicates that the Bible's not consistent.

Edited March 12, 2010 by cybercoma

[whowhere]

That his/her point has to be qualified with "of sorts" clearly indicates that the Bible's not consistent.

If you are talking of me, the bible weaves an allegorical tale. Is it consistent in some regards, yes. Is it contradictory in other places yes. Is there a theme, yes. Are you looking for perfection? I suggest you read the book of job. In there you will find that God doesn't claim to be perfect and in it, it will demonstrate with reason and rightous actions that God will alter his actions. The bible is a hoop, you jump the hoops, perhaps this god will listen to you, and parlay you further in the realm of life. This book also is a warning. I could careless whether you are an atheist or whatever if you are being true and logical. Good luck finding that in people.

Being arbitrary is not being intelligent.

[Jack Weber]

I think there are theological systems, like those of the Catholic and Orthodox churches that can do that without being overtly arbitrary. I certainly don't agree with them, but certainly St. Augustine's treatises on proper and improper interpretation of Scripture still, by and large, factor heavily in these churches' theological premises. Generally, the Church's point of view has been that on matters that do not constitute matters of salvation, variant interpretations do not necessarily constitute flaws or obstacles. In short, it's okay to accept the Earth is 4.5 billion years old or that there may not have been a literal Exodus by the Israelites from Egypt to the Promised Land. However, asserting that Jesus was not the product of a virgin birth does constitute an undermining of the Christian notions of salvation, and thus cannot be questioned.

Like I said, I don't agree with any of it, but there is a sort of self-consistent logic about how to approach Biblical interpretation. The problem for a lot of the post-reformation Protestant traditions is that they basically through the baby out with the bathwater. From there they basically had to create brand new theologies, and either lacking talent or the time, they simply fell into at least partial heresies (ie. Sola Scriptura, leading essentially to Bibliolatry).

I think part of the success of Catholicism has been its way to essentially duck out of such debates by not insisting on Sola Scriptura, or that the Bible alone, is the path to truth and salvation. By leaving open, much as Judaism had done before it, theological and dogmatic positions to encompassing a wider tradition than just what starts at Genesis 1:1 and ends at Revelations 22:20, it allows them to kind of get around modern issues like evolutionary biology, cosmology and so forth.

Being a Presbyterian I'm not looking to get into an arguement,but there are 5 Solas not 1.Sola Scriptura is important but they all must be taken seriously.The historic reason for Sola Scriptura was Martin Luther's view that The Bible does not need to be interpreted by men(The Papacy and The Magesterium).It's message is self evident and needs no interpretation.

I will say this for The Catholic Church...I find it far more doctrinaire and I feel it's steadfast belief in doctrine is the basis for why we have not seen the falling away of its congregation like many Protestant denominations have.Many Protestant denominations have become so excessively liberal and milquetoast that they no longer offer what people searching for that kind of guidance in life really want.I would give the United Church of Canada as an example of this.

[Hawkins]

I read totally different things before and after I am a Christian. Humans are arrogant though they know consently well that human intelligence is limited. Humans are incapable of dealing with the past and are futile about historical events. Yet they think know the past. They eat too much from the Tree of Knowledge to think that they know things and to judge, just as predicted in the very first chapter of the Holy Bible.

[ToadBrother]

Being a Presbyterian I'm not looking to get into an arguement,but there are 5 Solas not 1.Sola Scriptura is important but they all must be taken seriously.The historic reason for Sola Scriptura was Martin Luther's view that The Bible does not need to be interpreted by men(The Papacy and The Magesterium).It's message is self evident and needs no interpretation.

Clearly Luther was wrong, because all the Reformation did was to create a thousand interpretations, each one being held by its claimants to be the true one, and without a singular theological approach, the largely internal consistency of interpretation found in the major churches prior to the split was lost.

I will say this for The Catholic Church...I find it far more doctrinaire and I feel it's steadfast belief in doctrine is the basis for why we have not seen the falling away of its congregation like many Protestant denominations have.Many Protestant denominations have become so excessively liberal and milquetoast that they no longer offer what people searching for that kind of guidance in life really want.I would give the United Church of Canada as an example of this.

Well, Liberal or Conservative, if I ever decided to become a Christian, the one thing I wouldn't do is let any bishop or reverend dictate what scientific theories were right or wrong.

[Oleg Bach]

The word of God is all that is good - anything not good is not the word of God..simple.

[scorpio]

The word of God is all that is good - anything not good is not the word of God..simple.

But the word of God can be very bad, see Old Testament.

[cybercoma]

The word of God is all that is good - anything not good is not the word of God..simple.

Convenient.

[GostHacked]

I read totally different things before and after I am a Christian. Humans are arrogant though they know consently well that human intelligence is limited. Humans are incapable of dealing with the past and are futile about historical events. Yet they think know the past. They eat too much from the Tree of Knowledge to think that they know things and to judge, just as predicted in the very first chapter of the Holy Bible.

We deal with the past all the time, we call that history. If God does not give me knowledge, I shall look elsewhere for it. God can't and won't explain the discrepancies in the bible. If the bible was god's true words, then there would be no contradictions.

[scorpio]

I read totally different things before and after I am a Christian. Humans are arrogant though they know consently well that human intelligence is limited. Humans are incapable of dealing with the past and are futile about historical events. Yet they think know the past. They eat too much from the Tree of Knowledge to think that they know things and to judge, just as predicted in the very first chapter of the Holy Bible.

What happened to "Seek and ye shall find?" I think the judgment part comes from your camp.

[Oleg Bach]

But the word of God can be very bad, see Old Testament.

Old testament is just a record of bad behavior that glorifies war - treachery - adultery - domination and general sadism - I would safely say that the OT does not have a lot to do with God or goodness.....Most of the heros in the OT are murderous crooks - I could never figure out why we and the Jews use it as a manual---I guess empires are built on this shit.

[maple_leafs182]

This is my perspective on god.

I'll start of by saying I was born and raised Catholic, became an atheist and am now a pantheist.

God isn't some sort of super being and god did not create us.

God became us, God became everything, god is the universe.

Jesus wasn't gods only son, everyone and everything is god.

I know god is conscious because we are conscious, there may be a greater consciousness then ours.

God is following your heart and not living in fear.

God is all that is good and true. God is the voice of reason. God is love.

God is not a myth and we are not just a species that has evolved over a long period of time, we are more then that, we are all connected as one through god.

Personally I think religion is slavery. Religion may preach a good message but its foundation is based on lies. Just another way to control the population.

[ToadBrother]

This is my perspective on god.

I'll start of by saying I was born and raised Catholic, became an atheist and am now a pantheist.

God isn't some sort of super being and god did not create us.

God became us, God became everything, god is the universe.

Jesus wasn't gods only son, everyone and everything is god.

I know god is conscious because we are conscious, there may be a greater consciousness then ours.

God is following your heart and not living in fear.

God is all that is good and true. God is the voice of reason. God is love.

God is not a myth and we are not just a species that has evolved over a long period of time, we are more then that, we are all connected as one through god.

Personally I think religion is slavery. Religion may preach a good message but its foundation is based on lies. Just another way to control the population.

I feel like I just listened to a bad imitation of a John Lennon song.

[Jack Weber]

This is my perspective on god.

I'll start of by saying I was born and raised Catholic, became an atheist and am now a pantheist.

God isn't some sort of super being and god did not create us.

God became us, God became everything, god is the universe.

Jesus wasn't gods only son, everyone and everything is god.

I know god is conscious because we are conscious, there may be a greater consciousness then ours.

God is following your heart and not living in fear.

God is all that is good and true. God is the voice of reason. God is love.

God is not a myth and we are not just a species that has evolved over a long period of time, we are more then that, we are all connected as one through god.

Personally I think religion is slavery. Religion may preach a good message but its foundation is based on lies. Just another way to control the population.

Sounds like New Age Gobbledygook...

[maple_leafs182]

It makes sense to me.

Beliefs are important.

[Oleg Bach]

This is my perspective on god.

I'll start of by saying I was born and raised Catholic, became an atheist and am now a pantheist.

God isn't some sort of super being and god did not create us.

God became us, God became everything, god is the universe.

Jesus wasn't gods only son, everyone and everything is god.

I know god is conscious because we are conscious, there may be a greater consciousness then ours.

God is following your heart and not living in fear.

God is all that is good and true. God is the voice of reason. God is love.

God is not a myth and we are not just a species that has evolved over a long period of time, we are more then that, we are all connected as one through god.

Personally I think religion is slavery. Religion may preach a good message but its foundation is based on lies. Just another way to control the population.

GOD is not the stat3e- God is personal freedom - God is good will- creativity and inovation---it is life--all else leads to death..the wages of being a sinister lefty is death- it's physics..it is intelligent- it is vision--and I and you are not God but a faded mirror image of the maker...he or it is the top and we can not grow back our own teeth with out the help of mammnon---and the Mammon god always double crosses you in the end..God does not betray the believer..man and mammon will.

[Oleg Bach]

All religion is fabricated over time by man and attempts to keep an unbalanced social order- buisness is the same- it's all run on deception and fraud..God empowers mankind- religion dis-empowers and subjugates.. Christianity was high jacked and twisted to create a prison that is an intertwining of church and state..."Give to the state what belongs to the state and give to God what is God's" to para pharse...if all belongs to God then NOTHING belongs to the state..so the state gets nothing...unless your free will dictates that you contribute to the state- if the state is in decay- why feed it and prolong our suffering?

[Sir Bandelot]

Christianity was high jacked and twisted to create a prison that is an intertwining of church and state...if the state is in decay- why feed it and prolong our suffering?

The state was Jesus' enemy. When the Romans adopted christianity as the new religion of the empire, they nationalized the religion, and we see the results throughout our history. They took the ideas and inverted them, to place the church and state in position of complete power over individuals. The inversion of christ

[cybercoma]

bump